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Old 05-22-2014, 07:35 AM   #1
AussieCanadian
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Rear end sway caused by tires F150 17" Rims

Hi all,

I wasn't sure where to post this (IE in towing or tires), however I took our trailer out last week for the first outing of summer '14, and had some significant rear end instability which felt a lot like trailer sway, but I believe maybe caused by the tires, and more specifically, the deflection of the sidewalls.

A few details - we recently upgraded our TV to a new 2014 F150 XLT 4x4 SCrew. The truck is a 5.0L with 3.73s and came fitted with factory "P" 17" wheels and tires. Trailer is a Keystone Hideout 24BHWE, 5800lbs (loaded) Towing hardware is a Reese WD hitch with the round bars. We never had this issue with our previous TV, but that vehicle (Ram 1500) had 20" wheels and P rated tires.

Some basics first - the receiver on my new TV is 0.5" higher from ground level than my old TV - this meant I was sitting slightly more nose up, and in addition, my WD bars were on the 2nd last chain link, and not as tensioned as they were with my old TV. As a trial, I have purchased a new drop shank to lower the ball 1" so the TV and trailer sit more level, and I can increased the tension on the WD bars. This MAY help, but I still believe this could be a tire issue.

SO why do I think this is tires? I drove our truck empty (no trailer) and simply by some slight left to right movement of the steering wheel at 60mph (100km/h in Canada) I could replicate the feeling of the rear end moving around - almost as if the tires were flexing laterally, a feeling which would be amplified if you through the trailer on the back. The max rated pressure of these tires is 44psi, and I have checked and filled to 42psi BEFORE I towed - hence I don't believe this is simply a tire pressure issue.

Has anyone had a similar experience before with the F150? As I mentioned, we never had this issue with our previous TV, and I am lost as to how to solve it. The new drop shank (and adjusting WD bars) may help, but is there anyone out there that has a F150 with the 17" rims (standard XLT wheels and tires) with similar issues? How did you solve it? Should I upgrade to 20" rims to reduce the lateral movement? Should I purchase new "LT" types tires rather than the "P" tires? We are planning a summer off this year and planning ~7500 kms (5,000mi) of combined towing over 3 months.... but with this issue and unstable feel, I am having serious concerns....

Hope to hear from other F150 owners out there...

Thanks!

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Old 05-22-2014, 07:55 AM   #2
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June 1, 2012 purchased a bumper pull 2890RL Passport and tried to pull it with a 2012 F150 145" wheelbase pickup, the combo waggled its butt like a belly dancer and nothing seemed to help. It wasn't sway... the rear of the truck waggled not the trailer. After changing tires, shocks, and hitches the truck still waggled at highway speeds..

Sold the truck at the DW's insistence and bought bigger one... Surprise, surprise stock tires, stock shocks, plain old W/D hitch with a friction sway bar... trailer pulls like a dream and even a passing semi has no effect.

I've worked in the industry when I was much younger and had a gut feeling that the salesman and Ford were lying to me when they said that little light weight, short coupled pickup would pull that trailer and my gut was proven right...
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Old 05-22-2014, 08:19 AM   #3
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Thanks for your input Javi.

I'm seriously hoping that this issue is not that i'm hitting the F150's high end limit for towing.... if that's the case, and from what you describe, it's new truck, which we simply cannot afford right now...

Right now I am very confused, as our new XLT SCrew 4x4 has a higher GCWR rating than our previous TV. Specifically, the F150 is rated for 15,100lbs GCWR, and has a 9,300lbs tow rating, compared to 14,000lbs GCWR and 8,000lbs tow rating on our previous 1/2 ton (RAM 1500 4x4 Crew). If Ford really is lying about the TRUE capabilities of their trucks, and what I felt (rear end waggle) is evidence (note - i NEVER had this issue with our RAM - it was solid as a rock, even when passing semis and in high winds), then I want my money back on this F150! Maybe I need to take it up with Ford, but I need to do something as the truck feels very unsafe towing our trailer... there is no way I could tow more than about 100km - it feels that bad.

Any other F150 owners with similar issues? I was really hoping that the tires could have been the issue.... should I post this in the 'TOWING' section perhaps?
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Old 05-22-2014, 08:32 AM   #4
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The LT tires helped, the heavy duty shocks helped, the rear sway bar helped, the fancy hitch helped but in the end the wife just wasn't satisfied and WE all know what happens then..

I really think that if it had been an 8' bed 172" wheelbase it would have been fine. The short WB on the light trucks is just a killer with the longer heavier trailers. I was well within the trucks capabilities on paper but real life is sometimes much different than "on paper" a fact I'm painfully aware of as a design engineer...
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Old 05-22-2014, 09:12 AM   #5
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Aussie . . . understand, Javi is telling you that it may be the specific wheel base you're running now. Have you ever seen/heard of wind blowing across a bridge and causing it to oscillate? Even to the point it collapses the bridge (google Tacoma Narrow Bridge). Well the same thing can happen when towing. Your truck / trailer combination hits a harmonic or natural frequency and can cause major problems. If changing vehicles isn't an option I would try adding hitch weight. You can do this by placing more stuff in the front of the camper and less in the rear. Or you could fix it permanently by moving the axle(s) on the camper to the rear. You might also try adding weight in the rear of the truck, maybe a face cord of firewood. You need to change the balance between the truck and trailer.

Anyway, just an idea.


BTW > > > 1/2 ton truck pulling 9,300lbs? ahhh, yah. Good luck with that. However your weight is no where near that from your post. So I don't think it is the weight.
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Old 05-22-2014, 09:43 AM   #6
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Thanks a lot, Jager.

I totally agree... I would NEVER pull anywhere close to 9,300lbs with this (or any) 1/2 ton. I was very conscious of this when trailer shopping, and we stayed within our limits (on paper at least). I am actually a little mad at myself that I traded our RAM 1500 (lease was up) as that truck was setup by the dealer when we bought our trailer, and felt VERY stable when towing.... now with our new TV, I seem to have a setup that is quite a handful, and has really detracted from our towing (& camping) experience - hence why we need to fix it!

So our trailer is 4,520 dry, and loaded is around 5,800 (that includes batteries, propane, water tanks full, camping gear etc). I take you point, and it's a good one, that I should add weight to the rear of the truck, and/or front of the camper. I will try this next time we head out and see what difference it makes.

I have dropped my ball height 1" (using a new deep drop shank) so I should be able to tighten up the WD bars more next time I head out. Should that improve things do you think? I am also considering upgrading my wheels from the 17" (and P tires) to 18" wheels with LT rated tires.... any thoughts on that?

Thanks again!
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:12 AM   #7
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I have 18" on my 2012 Ecoboost F150 and so far my towing experience has been good. The only time I have experienced any sway is when being passed by a large semi or class A. The sway experienced was about 6" and was manageable. My trailer is 6600 lbs dry with a 720 lb hitch weight. I have never gotten sway with an unloaded truck.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:46 AM   #8
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Next trip with the new hitch, go over a scale, check wt, of rear axle, read what the tire says is max. wt and max. psi. A heavier ply tire will always help and may be needed, you won't know until you get the real wt.s from a scale. 10 ply tires at 65-80 psi vs what have now will help but, will it end the problem I cannot say. Sounds like Javi is giving you some good information and been there/done that advice.
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:14 AM   #9
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Hi AustinP,

Thanks for the response - I noticed you also own a Hideout - but the longer, and heavier version than mine. I have the 24BHWE (although my wife WANTED the 28BHSWE!) which does not have a slide, and is 4,520 dry / 5,800 loaded with our setup.

Question for you - how much drop did you need on your hitch setup? Did you need to buy a new (deeper) drop shank? I went ahead and purchased a new Reese deep drop shank as I couldn't go any lower on my 2" drop shank that was setup for our previous TV (RAM 1500). I believe that our 2 trailers may have the same coupler height, and your truck's receiver (presuming it's a 4x4 also, and has the std Ford suspension setup) should also be the same as mine... would be good to know.
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Old 05-22-2014, 02:14 PM   #10
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We have the 28BHSWE. I am using the shank that came with the Reese round bar 1000lb WD hitch setup. No drop on my setup. My truck is a 2wd with stock suspension so I assume it's about 1 inch lower that yours. I also use two friction sway bars.
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Old 05-22-2014, 02:28 PM   #11
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As I've been reading through this thread, nowhere does it state that you've actually gone out, parked your truck (without the trailer) and measured the front wheelwell height, then hooked up the trailer, set up the bars and measured the front wheelwell height with trailer attached. That is what "setting up the hitch" is all about, returning the "drivability" to the front axle by transferring the lost weight (from the trailer being attached behind the rear axle) to as close to it's original weight as possible.

When you drive your truck "solo" you have about a 60/40 weight distribution. That's 60% of your trucks weight on the front axle and 40% on the rear axle. This gives your steering a "specific feel" that you interpret as "normal steering". When you add 700 lbs (just for explanation purposes) about 30" behind the rear axle, you significantly "unload" the front axle and cause the steering to feel "light and squiggley".

The purpose of the weight distribution hitch is NOT to return the truck to "level" with the trailer attached, the purpose of the WD hitch is to reload the required weight on the front axle so steering (and vehicle controllability) can be maintained.

It sounds like when your dealership "set up your Dodge" they got it right, and when you "set up your Ford" you copied the links and hitch height that worked on the Dodge.... That's not how you set up a truck/trailer combo.

Take your rig to a level concrete parking lot, unhitch, measure from the ground to the bottom of the front fenderwell (above the tire), record that measurement, then hitch the trailer and adjust your weight distribution bars until that measurement is within 1/2" of the "unloaded height".

Then, stand back and see if your trailer is sitting "level" or "slightly nose down" If it is, then you're close to being properly set up. If the trailer is "nose high", THEN you need to lower your hitch height. If you can't get the front wheelwell height correct, then you need to adjust the washers (remove or add) to change the hitch angle so you can "crank the WD bars down tighter or loosen them to get the wheelwell height correct.

Don't try to level your truck !!! That's what causes most issues with hitch WD adjustment problems. The truck will (not maybe, not could, not might) the truck WILL sit lower in the back than when empty.

It's the front fenderwell height that you must get right or you'll never have a "controllable" rig.

Good Luck
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Old 05-22-2014, 04:24 PM   #12
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JRTJH

Well said. When trouble shooting you have to start at the beginning and eliminate possible problems systematically. "slightly less" (lower than level) on the tongue can go along ways toward stability, especially when steering axle weight is properly done. It can make an unacceptable situation much more pallatable.
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Old 05-22-2014, 06:36 PM   #13
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Your setup is less of a load than mine, and mine tows quite well. Loaded, it's 6,000 lbs.

What 17" wheels does Ford put on stock? The Raptors are 17", but all the others I've seen are 18" or 20".

I'm not totally familiar with all Reese hitches, but does the "round bar" setup include sway control?

Another issue could be how the trailer is loaded. Some time on the scales would help:
Weigh truck solo and get front and rear axle weights. Weigh trailer solo and get total weight. Hook up with WD bars, then weigh each truck axle, and the trailer's axles. Re-weigh this setup with WD bars disconnected (this method should show 12 or so percent of trailer's total weight on the hitch).

A heavily rear-loaded trailer will wag way too much.
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Old 05-23-2014, 03:20 AM   #14
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My 2013 had hancook tires on it. I was experiencing sway with a 16' utility open trailer. I had the tires replaced with 10 ply lt truck tires. When they took my hancooks off they could take there hand and collapse the sidewall. They were squishy as the tech called it. He also said he had never seen sidewalls that soft before. The new tires made a world of difference and the truck drives so much better

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Old 05-23-2014, 04:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f6bits View Post
Your setup is less of a load than mine, and mine tows quite well. Loaded, it's 6,000 lbs.

What 17" wheels does Ford put on stock? The Raptors are 17", but all the others I've seen are 18" or 20".

I'm not totally familiar with all Reese hitches, but does the "round bar" setup include sway control?

Another issue could be how the trailer is loaded. Some time on the scales would help:
Weigh truck solo and get front and rear axle weights. Weigh trailer solo and get total weight. Hook up with WD bars, then weigh each truck axle, and the trailer's axles. Re-weigh this setup with WD bars disconnected (this method should show 12 or so percent of trailer's total weight on the hitch).

A heavily rear-loaded trailer will wag way too much.
The OEM tires/wheels on my 2011 F-150 were P265/70-17, I switched them out for LT tires and it did help with the shimmy but not enough.

What y'all are missing is that this isn't sway of the trailer, the trailer is tracking just fine. It is a shimmy back and forth of the tail of the truck. Think of it as if someone was pushing sideways or rocking the back of the truck rapidly.

I had people follow me while towing that reported the trailer was stable but the rear of the truck was moving.

I agree that the OP needs to make sure that his hitch is correctly adjusted but that isn't going to alleviate or even reduce this problem. I know this because we tried adjusting it out with the hitch and even tried the Equalizer hitch. It just wasn't the trailer moving.... it is the truck.

I finally solved it by replacing the truck, after spending a couple of grand trying to fix the issue.

Call it harmonics, call it a spring issue, call it a light weight truck, call it whatever but the bottom line was.... the DW was uncomfortable with the constant rocking of the truck while we towed. The truck had plenty of power, it had plenty of payload but it just wasn't up to the task.

In the truck's defense it wasn't purchased as a tow vehicle, had that been the intent it would have at the least been the HEAVY DUTY version. It was bought to haul the DW and grandkids around comfortably. We now have a truck which will do both..
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Old 05-23-2014, 04:53 AM   #16
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I found this AFTER I had already replaced the F150 but thought I'd post it for y'all.. This is from Car & Driver April 2011
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...4-50-v8-review


The first of our two gripes is the steering. Its responsiveness is a benefit when not towing, but the wheel is a touch too sensitive on-center, and it loads up quickly within just a few degrees, which keeps it twitching when there’s a trailer out back. A vehicle meant for work shouldn’t have a rack this active.

Our other complaint concerns the suspension and the chassis. Although rated to tow a max of 9300 pounds in this configuration, the truck bounced, bucked, and was pushed around by less than half that weight. We have no knocks against the powertrain, especially using the transmission’s tow mode, but the F-150’s foundation felt soft and unsettled. If you’re regularly towing heavy loads and need a Ford, we recommend stepping up to the F-250.
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Old 05-23-2014, 05:27 AM   #17
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Javi, are you saying it's not a trailer issue, but a payload issue with the truck? If this is the case, can't the OP throw in 800 lbs or so up against the tailgate and see if it's still an issue?

As I said, it's a similar setup to mine and I'm not having that issue. On a smooth road, the ride is a dream. On a rough road, it's just bouncy, but no wiggle.
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Old 05-23-2014, 05:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by f6bits View Post
Javi, are you saying it's not a trailer issue, but a payload issue with the truck? If this is the case, can't the OP throw in 800 lbs or so up against the tailgate and see if it's still an issue?

As I said, it's a similar setup to mine and I'm not having that issue. On a smooth road, the ride is a dream. On a rough road, it's just bouncy, but no wiggle.
Yes it is NOT and issue with the trailer swaying, nor does it seem to be related to tongue weight or payload of the truck itself. I believe it is a suspension and physical weight of the truck as a unit. My trailer has a GVWR of 7200 but as towed weighs a little less than 6600. During the battle to fix the issue we tried several variations of tongue weight ranging all the way up to 1100 lbs all with little to no effect on the shimmy.

A rear sway bar also helped as did the Blistein shocks and new LT tires but we could never get it to go completely away. I was at the point of replacing the rear springs with a heavier pair when I came to my senses and traded the truck off for a Super Duty. Somebody got a very nice 1/2 ton with a lot of work done to it. The one thing I did not try was putting airbags on the truck but by the time I got to that point I'd had all of that truck I wanted.

The major difference is that you have the MAX TOW, I didn't and I expect that neither does the OP.
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Old 05-24-2014, 04:45 AM   #19
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Thanks very much for all the replies.

You're correct Javi on the 17" tire size being P265/70-17 (Michelin LTX2's) and these are standard on the XLT unless you opt for the Chrome Package (in US) or the XTR package (if you're in Canada).

After reading all the responses, especially yours JRTJH, thank you - I will approach this issue systematically and then report back. I have a few steps identified so far:

1) Take the truck and trailer down to a level pad, and level the unit up. I do have a new drop shank for my hitch setup (Reese WD hitch w/ round bars) which will give me another 2" of drop if I needed it (I was at the lowest setting with my old shank).

2) Measure the front height of truck with trailer hitched (taking measurement without load with me) - from top of tire to top of wheel arch and record, and adjust WD bars until close (0.5") to empty measurement.

3) After this is complete, take the unit to highway speeds - test

4) Re-adjust as necessary - try weight in back of truck as well as re-distributing weight more to front of trailer.

5) Test again

6) If still not good, I am going to throw on another set of wheels to test it out. I have a set of 20" rims that are heavier, and due to lower profile I believe may improve the trucks handling. My GVWR is 7,350 and I figure i'm around 6,700 on the truck, which includes passengers, gear and the tongue weight. Seems that those with 18" fitted with larger rims (not just those on here, but others I've talked to in campgrounds) don't have this issue... and they are also driving on "P" (not LT) tires.

Thanks again - this is all really helpful and very sound advice... i love thsi forum! Happy camping to all (and hopefully happy towing for me) I will report back in a few days...
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Old 05-24-2014, 04:47 AM   #20
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Also - RE: GVWR and weights.... I will go to a scale to take measurements, as I realize that "figurative" measurements (like those I gave above) have no place in the real world
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