Cougar vs Premier vs Outback Ultra-Lite

[RLundin]

Looking at getting a higher end travel trailer but one that can be towed via a 1/2 ton pick up with max towing package. Thus, looking at the smaller Travel Trailers that Keystone has (ie Cougar 22 MLS).

What are the key differences between Cougar, Premier and Outback Ultra-Lite travel trailers in the 22-26" ft range?

Also, if you bought a Cougar travel trailer, what other brands did you think were comparable and a close second? As an example the Grand Design Imagine trailers look nice and see to have good quality.

Thank You for your help!

[sourdough]

I think maybe we first need to determine the tow vehicle? 1/2 ton with tow package; what is the make/year/model of truck as well as cab/bed configuration? Drivetrain and axle ratio? What does the yellow sticker inside the driver door tell you the payload is?

Those will be key components to determining what you can tow with your truck. All of the listed trailers are 7k+ lbs. gvw in their smallest configurations (22') which will tax a "non well equipped" 1/2 ton.

As far as the 3 models you listed Keystone segregates them into "comfort" models (lowest level), "premium" models (mid level) and "luxury" models (top of the line so to speak). The cougar is in their "luxury" line while the other 2 are in the "premium" line. The Cougar will have a bit better, and more, amenities. What those are vs what the others do or don't have really needs to be seen first hand with a good walk through and walk around.

As far as other brands I've looked at a lot. IMO Keystone will offer the best floorplans and build quality at any price point. Grand Design is basically an overpriced Keystone (again IMO after looking at many). The Imagine used to be their entry level trailer but now they have the Transcend which may have taken that slot and put the Imagine it the middle under the Reflection. It will compare to a Passport or thereabouts in the Keystone line as I recall. Note that all the GD models of bumper pulls say that they welcome "medium duty trucks" which again would point to the need of ascertaining the towing capability of your truck.

[RLundin]

In terms of Grand Design, the Reflection Travel Trailers begin at 33ft so these are not a consideration.

I'm wondering about other models that directly compete against Keystone Cougar's smaller trailers.

In terms of tow vehicle, I will be buying a new one but "hope" to stay with a 1/2 ton but that might not be possible.

[sourdough]

In terms of Grand Design, the Reflection Travel Trailers begin at 33ft so these are not a consideration.

I'm wondering about other models that directly compete against Keystone Cougar's smaller trailers.

In terms of tow vehicle, I will be buying a new one but "hope" to stay with a 1/2 ton but that might not be possible.


Are you referencing models from other manufacturers? If so you will probably have to do a lot of "hands on", on site looking to make that determination between them. I looked at many, if not most, manufacturers before I bought my Cougar High Country back in 2014. None of them could compare at that time at that price point.

Trying to compare RVs without seeing them and walking through them is pretty much impossible. Lots of things you have to be there to see many times like, "where IS the 2nd gray tank dump handle"? Is it (and the others) convenient vs stuck half way under the trailer under a slide? The feel of the "solid surface" countertop? No, they are all NOT the same. The list is endless and some of those items can easily drive you to a different trailer/brand simply because one is so much more user friendly.

If you are going to get a new truck is there a reason you have to have a 1/2 ton? If towing is in your future a 1/2 ton probably shouldn't be IMO. I started with one and used one for many years because I was hard headed and did not want the harsh ride of a HD truck. Went to a 3/4 and found it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be and when you air down the tires (non towing) they're very comfortable - and give you a safety cushion while towing vs being "on the edge" all time. Something to think about.

[LHaven]

Looking at getting a higher end travel trailer but one that can be towed via a 1/2 ton pick up with max towing package. Thus, looking at the smaller Travel Trailers that Keystone has (ie Cougar 22 MLS).

Just going to make a blanket statement here: for the vast majority of trailers that Keystone marks as "half-ton towable," they're lying.

I bought a Cougar 26 and had an F-150. Not even close to being within the truck's capabilities. And Cougars longer than 26 still carry that decal.

Fast calculation: Take 13% of the trailer's MAX weight as the tongue weight. Subtract that from your payload as marked on your individual truck's yellow doorframe sticker (not somebody's manual). Subtract 100 lb. for your hitch. Subtract the weight of you and your truck passengers, pets, and truck cargo. In most cases, a half-ton TV is already in negative country.

If you have the freedom to choose your truck now, consider a 3/4T at least... unless you want a real small, real light travel trailer.

[Northofu1]

I like Cougar over the Premier and Outback. I had a Premier 26 RBPR, great floorplan but did not have near the amenities that my cougar has. IMO Cougar is built better the other two.
After Grand Design sold out, they are just another company making trailers for their parent owner.

[RLundin]

[QUOTE= I bought a Cougar 26 and had an F-150. Not even close to being within the truck's capabilities. And Cougars longer than 26 still carry that decal.[/QUOTE]

What other trailer brands did you consider before purchasing your Cougar? Trailers are in real short supply right now and no one seems to have trailers on-hand to look at so I need to narrow down my search vs just showing up and looking only what the dealer has on hand.

[wiredgeorge]

What other trailer brands did you consider before purchasing your Cougar? Trailers are in real short supply right now and no one seems to have trailers on-hand to look at so I need to narrow down my search vs just showing up and looking only what the dealer has on hand.

It was suggest you provide complete info for your tow vehicle; not much point of making suggestions for a 1/2 ton as payload and towing capability vary widely. it was suggested you provide:

"what is the make/year/model of truck as well as cab/bed configuration? Drivetrain and axle ratio? What does the yellow sticker inside the driver door tell you the payload is?"

Without knowing these things, folks will likely be recommending campers that are not appropriate. Keep in mind the higher quality the more weight in general. Provide info on your tow vehicle that was requested and your responses will actually have some context.

[RLundin]

I will be purchasing a new truck to pull the travel trailer. I'm hoping to narrow down my search to travel trailer brands somewhat comparable to Cougar travel trailers.

[wiredgeorge]

Your camper and tow vehicle must be compatible and the shortcoming of most 1/2 ton pickups is lack of payload. You are doing the right thing by research but DO NOT use any figure other than the truck's actual payload found on the yellow/white placard in the door frame and the gross weight of the trailer. Towing capacity and published tongue weights and the like are marketing fiction.

It is always the best practice to buy a tow vehicle that exceeds what you believe you will need. For a small camper, a 3/4 ton gas truck is probably a great option. If this is your first camper purchase, be thoughtful about which things are important.

We find that the smaller trailers tend to create more compromises so you will tend to favor trailers that are a bit bigger. The bigger the trailer, the fewer the floor plan compromises. We have a 28' fifth wheel and the bathroom has a tub that is really narrow and one of our not so favorite features. We have tried to solve this issue with an articulating shower rod so the curtain isn't on top of us when we shower. Our bed was originally an RV queen and we swapped for a full sized residential queen and getting around the bed was made more difficult.

If we had a 33' fifth wheel, these issues would be lessened. Our parking spot at home can't accommodate much more length than 30' so we are in a camper that is space compromised.

The smaller campers you are asking about will have even more compromises. Don't buy a tow vehicle that forces you into a camper with more compromises than you can live with and will want to upgrade in a year or two or even after your first camping trip.

[JRTJH]

A Bullet 210 RUDWE COMFORT (cheaper, less amenities) 26'5" has a shipping weight is 4345 pounds. MSRP $28905

A Cougar 22 RBSWE LUXURY (more cost and more amenities) 25'11" has a shipping weight of 5594 pounds. That's 6 inches shorter and weighs 1249 pounds more. MSRP $38340

An Airstream Globetrotter 25FB (even more cost/more amenities) 25'11" has a shipping weight of 6100 pounds. MSRP $112800

A Grand Designs Imagine XLS 22RBE is 25'11" with a shipping weight of 5125 pounds. MSRP is $36678 and compares closer to the Bullet than the Cougar.

A Grand Designs Reflection compares closer to the Cougar, but there are no trailers offered in the size range.

As you can see, price varies over a wide range, so what you're willing to pay and what you are capable of paying is a major factor in choosing a $28K or a $110K trailer.

Just as important, empty trailer weight, something you will NEVER find when towing, ranges from 4345 to 6100 pounds.

What you'll be towing, after you add cargo and camping equipment, will range from 6395 to 7200 pounds, and possibly even more than that, depending on the hitch you select and any cargo that you carry in the tow vehicle, family size/weight and how the vehicle is equipped (leather seats, electronic options weigh more than vinyl seats and no options).

So, you could easily be spending well over $200 K for a truck/trailer that weighs far more than a "typical half ton can handle" or you could be spending $75K for a minimally equipped truck and a "budget" priced trailer that is well matched to a carefully selected half ton truck.

There is NO "one answer" for what's best, what's better or what's not even to be considered...

As an example, if there are two people in your family you likely wouldn't consider a bunkhouse trailer and lose the floorspace in a 26' model while on the other hand, if you have 4 children (or plan to have them in the near future) you wouldn't want to invest $100 K in an Airstream 26' trailer that only sleeps 2.

Floorplan and usability for YOUR lifestyle is far more important than whether the decal on the front cap is Bullet, Cougar, Imagine, Jayco or Airstream.

The truck you select will, in all probability, be "at its maximum towing/payload capacity, regardless of which 26' trailer you choose and many trailer choices in that length will "far outclass" many half ton vehicles that are not properly equipped.....

So, the process should be:

What floorplan suits our needs?
Who makes that floorplan and how do those (not all) models "stack up"?
How much does each of the trailers with that floorplan weigh?
How much does each of t he trailers with that floorplan cost?
Is the cost worth the difference in construction/amenities?
Which tow vehicle do I want?
Can that vehicle be ordered so it's properly equipped to tow the trailer I select?
Is there room for "growth" if I find the trailer is too small for us without buying a larger tow vehicle?
Where do I park the trailer when not using it?
Can I park the tow vehicle at home or will I need to park "on the street"?
If the vehicle is a daily driver, is there room to park it at work?


And finally:
Can I afford those two purchases?
What is the reputation of the dealerships for both the trailer and the tow vehicle?

[flybouy]

Unfortunatly you have 2 variables in your equation and no reliable numbers to work with. Mathematicians at MIT Couldn’t solve that formula. Unfortunatly there aren't any dealerships that I'm aware of where you can buy a truck and a trsiler paired up like a Barbie set. In today's current market environment there's limited opportunity to "kick the tires" on either vehicle.

My suggestion would be think carefully on what you want, what you're willing to accept, and write down the most imprortant priorities for you. Start with the most limiting factors first. Budget is a typical limitation for most folks. Write down the total amount you're able/willing to spend. Then write down the next most impactful limitation. Is that the 1/2 ton truck? Or is that the trailer length?

So a lot of soul searching is in order and I'd advise using the gross weight of the trailer to calculate the tounge weight. Take the Gross trailer weight and multiply by .13 then add 100 lbs for the hitch. Then the resultant will be the ESTIMATED tongue weight. That part of the equation eill be much easier to estimate than the truck load capacity to match up ti the propsed load.

Since truck inventory is low the challenge will be in finfing real world payload numbers. The ojly way yo truley know that is to weight the truck. You can get an estimate by looking at that payload and tire inflation plackard. Start looking at new and used trucks to get a "feel" for where those numbers typically land. The challange is, matching a trailer that may max out the 1/2 ton truck capacity. That capacity is a moving target so you end up trying to "pin the tail on the donkey".

Always, always consider more truck than you think you'll need. Having excess payload will never hurt, never be detrimental . Being on "the hairy edge" or over the capacity of the truck will always be a negative. JMHO

[RWRiley]

What are the key differences between Cougar, Premier and Outback Ultra-Lite travel trailers in the 22-26" ft range?

I don't know what the differences are, but I can tell you I have a Premier 24RKPR, and we don't like it. I am looking at trading after only 2 years. Lot's of things bug me about the TT. Only one 120V outlet in the kitchen, and it's 6" off the floor, so we have to mess around with extention chords and TV trays to get everything plugged in. No drawers in the Kitchen, and the cupboard doors open up with no way to stay open by themselves so we have to use 1 hand to hold them open and the other to get whatever we want out of it. My baggage area isn't big enough, I have 2 Gray tanks with separate sewer hook ups, etc, etc.

As far as towing with a 1/2 ton, I don't have a problem. My Tahoe has Max Trailer Pack and a 1,797# payload, so I am well within GVWR, GCWR, Rear Axle, Front Axle, etc. The trailer has wide set axles, so I don't have a problem with sway. The tires on my rig have a max speed of 65 mph, which I don't usually exceed, but I don't like running down the road at 100% of the rated speed.

We are going to just take our losses and get rid of it. We are looking at a Grand Design 2600RB, and a Salem 25RBHL.

[sourdough]

I don't know what the differences are, but I can tell you I have a Premier 24RKPR, and we don't like it. I am looking at trading after only 2 years. Lot's of things bug me about the TT. Only one 120V outlet in the kitchen, and it's 6" off the floor, so we have to mess around with extention chords and TV trays to get everything plugged in. No drawers in the Kitchen, and the cupboard doors open up with no way to stay open by themselves so we have to use 1 hand to hold them open and the other to get whatever we want out of it. My baggage area isn't big enough, I have 2 Gray tanks with separate sewer hook ups, etc, etc.

As far as towing with a 1/2 ton, I don't have a problem. My Tahoe has Max Trailer Pack and a 1,797# payload, so I am well within GVWR, GCWR, Rear Axle, Front Axle, etc. The trailer has wide set axles, so I don't have a problem with sway. The tires on my rig have a max speed of 65 mph, which I don't usually exceed, but I don't like running down the road at 100% of the rated speed.

We are going to just take our losses and get rid of it. We are looking at a Grand Design 2600RB, and a Salem 25RBHL.


In all fairness everything you mention are things that a potential buyer looks at prior to purchase and then determines if they want them - good or bad. I do understand buying something and some unknowns pop up but things like lack of storage or plugs would be something you consider prior to purchase. BTW I doubt you get that GD for the same price as the Premier...

[German Shepherd Guy]

:popcorn:

Hello RLundin. I have a 2019 Premier 26RBPR. Great floor plan and we love it. Lots of storage. But then there are only the two of us and the dogs. We opted for the table & chairs vs the dinning nook so we could put dog crates there for our puppies. We have more storage than we really need. I used to pull it around with a 1/2 ton Suburban, and I pulled it through the Colorado Mountains. Where we don't really deal with a lot of side wind like out on the plains. I moved up to a 3/4 ton Suburban and will tell you there is a WORLD:dance: of difference and I would never go back to the 1/2 ton. :nonono: Seriously.:cool:
I think the quality is comparable through the three brands you mentioned. So it is really the floor plan and what you are comfortable towing. I looked at the Premier 24RKPR but thought the rear kitchen layout was problematic. We would get another 26RBPR. BUT I would suggest the 3/4 ton over the 1/2 ton for the towing of it.:ermm:
Hope that helped.

[Miloski]

F-150's can tow trailers and this site shows you can. Go to https://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/ and look up your truck year and modal then run the numbers. Yes, you can run up to max weight, all commercial vehicles on the road do the same because their built that way and so is a pick-up truck. Most accidents are not from weight but speeding and unattentively driving. If you're new at pulling a trailer just do the speed limit, be attentive to the road conditions and how you and others drive, don't get cocky and you'll be ok. Most models have a similar site. Just to let you know we love our 1/2 ton Cougar and it runs a ton lighter then a normal modal.

[LHaven]

F-150's can tow trailers and this site shows you can. Go to https://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/ and look up your truck year and modal then run the numbers. Yes, you can run up to max weight, all commercial vehicles on the road do the same because their built that way and so is a pick-up truck. Most accidents are not from weight but speeding and unattentively driving. If you're new at pulling a trailer just do the speed limit, be attentive to the road conditions and how you and others drive, don't get cocky and you'll be ok. Most models have a similar site. Just to let you know we love our 1/2 ton Cougar and it runs a ton lighter then a normal modal.

Oh, my. :hide:

[sourdough]

F-150's can tow trailers and this site shows you can. Go to https://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/ and look up your truck year and modal then run the numbers. Yes, you can run up to max weight, all commercial vehicles on the road do the same because their built that way and so is a pick-up truck. Most accidents are not from weight but speeding and unattentively driving. If you're new at pulling a trailer just do the speed limit, be attentive to the road conditions and how you and others drive, don't get cocky and you'll be ok. Most models have a similar site. Just to let you know we love our 1/2 ton Cougar and it runs a ton lighter then a normal modal.


You need to do more real life looking at trucks. The sales brochures are just that....to sell trucks. The payload numbers you see there have absolutely zero to do with the payload you will have on your particular truck....could be hundreds or a thousand less. You do yourself and others a disservice by thinking those numbers have anything to do with a real life truck sitting in your drive.

[travelin texans]

F-150's can tow trailers and this site shows you can. Go to https://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/ and look up your truck year and modal then run the numbers. Yes, you can run up to max weight, all commercial vehicles on the road do the same because their built that way and so is a pick-up truck. Most accidents are not from weight but speeding and unattentively driving. If you're new at pulling a trailer just do the speed limit, be attentive to the road conditions and how you and others drive, don't get cocky and you'll be ok. Most models have a similar site. Just to let you know we love our 1/2 ton Cougar and it runs a ton lighter then a normal modal.

99.99999% of the so called "1/2 ton towable" 5th wheels WILL exceed the payload posted on each individual truck loooonnnnggg before they could ever "carry" the max tow weights posted in the above Ford link.
As it's been stated numerous times those tow weights are of no value in the real rv world of towing. Those numbers are arrived at by using conventional trailers, not RVs, where the weight is placed directly over the axles considerably lowering the pin/tongue weights, a practice that can not be done with a RV.
The thing to remember is that 1/2 pickups may be a consideration for TTs of 25' to maybe 30', but they are not suitable for the majority of 5th wheels regardless of what cute gimmicky name the manufacturer may give it or how much towing weight the truck manufacturers brag about in their advertising.
Will a 1/2 ton "pull" a 5th wheel? Hell yeah! Probably a 40'er! They show one "moving" a million pound freight car..........with a tow strap & another "moving" the space shuttle.
Can a 1/2 ton truck "carry" the weight of a so called 1/2 ton 5th wheel? NOT SAFELY within the limits of the truck!!!!
From the majority of rv accidents I've witnessed or seen pictured "speed & inattentive driving" were not the cause but rather mismatched rv & tow vehicle due to poor advice from forum members that insist 1/2 tons are capable, poor information from manufacturers as the posted link above & rv/truck dealers that have no idea about towing but need to sell something.

[LHaven]

We have a 2021 Cougar Half Ton 30RKDWE travel trailer. We currently pull it with a 2020 Ford F-150 3.5l Ecoboost short bed 4x2.
The truck is more than capable to pull the trailer, and in our specific case, all the numbers are well within the manufacturers guidelines (both Ford and Cougar)
Now the trailer is 34 feet 9 inches long (coupler to bumper)

Good luck with that. I was towing a 26' Cougar TT with that model truck (different year), and after I did the actual math (not the literature fantasy math) I was way over payload.

Do this math (http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-tt.shtml) and see if you are still in your happy place.

[wiredgeorge]

For those hoping to illuminate the original poster, he hasn't been on since the 29th of last month. Enough poor information has been given in this thread that it would do well to just go away; like usual, some good stuff and a lot of bad. Wish Keystone would have the good sense to drop the "half ton towable" lies they put out. There might be a half ton out there with sufficient payload to pull many of these half ton towables safely but 95 percent do NOT.

[JRTJH]

In your specific situation, a 26' Cougar TT (unknown model, weight, etc). and a different year Truck (means different towing capacity), the math showed it was NOT in the tow capacity.

However, as I stated, in my particular case - it was. Each specific truck has its own set of variables, based upon features, etc. A 2020 F-150 alone does not tell you the tow capacity, or payload of any particular truck.

I'm glad you found out about yours being over capacity.

In my case, it is well within the numbers. Rare I know, but it does happen.

I'd sure like to "see the numbers" on how your F-150 is within the tow ratings (payload, rear axle rating, max frontal area rating and gross combined weight rating while staying below the truck's gross weight rating.

Some "real world weights" to substantiate the generalities would go a long way toward giving us "old farts" and those "new to buying/towing a travel trailer" some specific insight into just how a 34' trailer can be towed by a truck with a 1600 pound payload and a frontal area maximum of 60 square feet.

I'm not saying, "your truck is overloaded"... What I'm saying is, "Can you show us the specifics on how you arrived at your conclusion"......

[JRTJH]

F-150's can tow trailers and this site shows you can. Go to https://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/ and look up your truck year and modal then run the numbers. Yes, you can run up to max weight, all commercial vehicles on the road do the same because their built that way and so is a pick-up truck. Most accidents are not from weight but speeding and unattentively driving. If you're new at pulling a trailer just do the speed limit, be attentive to the road conditions and how you and others drive, don't get cocky and you'll be ok. Most models have a similar site. Just to let you know we love our 1/2 ton Cougar and it runs a ton lighter then a normal modal.

Your "recommendations" will work, but only if you ignore the two RED disclaimers posted in the link you provided. Those disclaimers (posted in red by Ford, not me) state:

":MAXIMUM LOADED TRAILER WEIGHT (lbs.)
Towing capability will be reduced based on trim series, option content and payload. Prior to making final vehicle selection, reference the Towing Basics information on the last page of this Towing Guide. See dealer and reference “eSourceBook” Job Aid “Spec’ing F-Series Trucks for Towing”

"• Trailer tongue load weight should be 10% of total loaded trailer weight. Make sure vehicle payload (reduce by option weight) will accommodate trailer tongue load weight and weight of passengers and cargo added to towing vehicle. Addition of trailer tongue load weight and weight of passengers and cargo cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed rear GAWR or GVWR."

From the "Towing Basics" at the end of this brochure that are referenced by the bolded part of the RED Ford comment:

"The charts in this Guide show the minimum powertrain needed to achieve
an acceptable towing performance for the listed GCW of tow vehicle and trailer. Under certain conditions, however, (e.g., when the trailer has a large frontal area that adds substantial air drag or when trailering in hilly or mountainous terrain) it is wise to choose a vehicle with a higher rating."

"Your specific vehicle’s tow capability could be reduced based on weight of selected trim series and option content."

So, essentially, the "charts" provide for 14,000 pounds of towing capacity ONLY with a "properly equipped XL truck with only the options required to achieve the rating, with only a 150 pound driver and a single 150 pound passenger. Any options added to the truck or any upgrade in trim level will reduce the maximum towing capacity by "some figure, up to the actual weight of the upgrades"... Trick is: Trying to find how Ford established "some figure up to..."

[travelin texans]

Hello

We have a 2021 Cougar Half Ton 30RKDWE travel trailer. We currently pull it with a 2020 Ford F-150 3.5l Ecoboost short bed 4x2.

Thats a mouthful

The truck is more than capable to pull the trailer, and in our specific case, all the numbers are well within the manufacturers guidelines (both Ford and Cougar)

Now the trailer is 34 feet 9 inches long (coupler to bumper)

We currently utilize the equalizer hitch 14K system

We utilize this combination full time, and have no issues what so ever.

All that being said, in the next several months, we plan to get a new 2022 Ford F-350 Diesel 4x4 long bed truck. The biggest reason, is we want the 4x4. The platform of the 350 gives us the ability to tow just about anything out there, should we ever want anew RV (including fifth wheels).

The Cougar Half Ton travel trailers were designed to be towed by very specific 1/2 ton models, so be very careful when trying to match up the specs. So look at the specs on the door frame of the truck, and do the math.

If you plan on towing on dirt roads, beaches, or boon docking, get 4x4.

Good luck in your search

To quote another forum member, "at this time you don't know what you don't know!".
I'm willing to bet when you hook up to the 350 & tow a mile or 2 you'll notice very quickly that the 150 didn't "tow just fine".
Those "specific 1/2 ton models" mentioned are about as rare as hens teeth or unicorns.
Fortunately you're going to a 1 ton. The numbers you posted are most likely from truck/RV literature & nowhere near real world rv numbers.
A 10500 GVWR RV with a 750lb tongue weight, that's about 1/2 of the actual tongue weight.

[JRTJH]

First I am not here to prove anything to anyone, and I am not going to get into a back and forth debate over this. People have come to their own conclusions, and decisions over safety.

That being said, lets get some of the numbers correct.

#1 - Max Loaded trailer weight = 10,500
#2 - GCWR = 15,900
#3 - Max payload = 3,230
#4 - tongue weight = 760

So there you have the numbers.

Keep in mind - I agree that not all 1/2 ton trucks can tow the same amount, and even if they could, as I stated, even for us, we are moving to a better/more robust platform (F-350) to provide options for towing other RV's should we decide to change RV's in the future (such as 5th wheels).

To "use your posted numbers"

Max loaded trailer weight = 10,500
GCWR = 15,900

Doing the math, that means if the trailer weighs 10,500 the truck can only weigh 5400 pounds. Now, if we "add your max payload of 3230, that puts the truck at 8630, so the GCWR of 15900 - 8630 puts the max trailer at 7270. That's 3230 pounds more than the GCWR if both the truck and trailer "are really at GVWR.

I don't know of any "properly equipped half ton truck" that weighs 5400 pounds when you put passengers and a hitch on it.

Doing a little more math:

Max trailer weight = 10,500
Tongue weight = 760

That puts the tongue weight at 7.23% of trailer weight.... I've never seen any RV (conventional or fifth wheel) with a tongue weight of 7%. Have you?

[markcee]

First I am not here to prove anything to anyone, and I am not going to get into a back and forth debate over this. People have come to their own conclusions, and decisions over safety.

That being said, lets get some of the numbers correct.

#1 - Max Loaded trailer weight = 10,500
#2 - GCWR = 15,900
#3 - Max payload = 3,230
#4 - tongue weight = 760

So there you have the numbers.

Keep in mind - I agree that not all 1/2 ton trucks can tow the same amount, and even if they could, as I stated, even for us, we are moving to a better/more robust platform (F-350) to provide options for towing other RV's should we decide to change RV's in the future (such as 5th wheels).

I think moving to the 1-ton is a good move, because that is not your truck's payload capacity. What you're quoting is a sales brochure figure that applies to a stripped down XL, 4x2 supercab equipped with the heavy duty payload package (HDPP).

Look at your driver's side door panel at the Tire & Loading yellow/white sticker to find your specific payload capacity.

I had a 2019 max tow equipped F150, 3.5 EB in XLT trim. My sticker payload was 1873 pounds. I had trouble putting a couple chairs in the bed without busting payload.

[wiredgeorge]

I think many folks do desire to tow safely and are led astray by the unrealistic pin or tongue weights provided by all RV trailer manufacturers and the ridiculous exaggerations of the truck companies who pound "max towing in class" while keep the fine print really really hard to stumble upon.

When faced with this reality, the new RV owner is faced with a real dilema if they have a shiny new truck just purchased for their tow vehicle that most every option, diesel and 4x4 and has very little payload. The new owner either concedes there is a problem with payload or refers to truck manufacturer and rv manufacturer brochure numbers. This forum has witnessed this dilema dozens of time. And sadly the new owner is often upside down to the bank on both the truck and rv loans; by a lot.

[sourdough]

Anyway - We (Ford, myself, and Keystone) have all gone over the specific numbers, and are sure that they are well within the safety guidelines.

But if you want more clarification, please reach out to both Keystone customer support, and Ford. I am sure they can explain it much better than me.

Anyway, thank you for your concern, it is appreciated.


I would really like to know how you managed to get Ford/Keystone engineers and yourself on a conference call.....I need that connection! Going over your particular truck and trailer details with you comprehensively is quite a feat. More confusing, if you did do all that why do you only have brochure numbers to represent your findings?? You were asked a couple of times I believe to post your particular truck's payload sticker.....and no, I'm positive it is not the number from the Ford towing guide you used. It is a wise choice however that you are moving up in truck size.

[RLundin]

Thanks everyone for their feedback. I was mainly looking for feedback on trailer comparisons. I will be getting a new truck that supports what ever trailer I select. I "hope" to stay with a 1/2 ton, but will go up to 3/4 ton if necessary.

The Cougar that we seem to really like is the Cougar 22MLS that provides both theater seating and booth in a 26ft trailer. The layout is very similar to the Grand Design Imagine XLS 22MLE.

[wiredgeorge]

Hey sourdough

You would be surprised how easy it is to get assistance from both Keystone, and Ford. BTW, it was not a 3 way conference call as you imply. That would have been interesting.

For the record, to make it very clear, we are not moving up to a 350 because of any issues in towing our RV, but rather, for other reasons, such as 4 wheel drive (4x4), as an example. Currently we have a 4x2, which is more than fine for highway work, but not very good for beaches or soft dirt roads, in general. If we had gotten the 4x4 version of the 150, and had the same towing capacity that we currently have, we would probably just stay with the 150. However, we decided to instead move up to a 350 so that we could potentially tow anything we consider over the next 10 years as far as an RV is considered. Also we are waiting for the 2022's because of a few new features that Ford will have in them as compared to 2021.

https://www.facebook.com/ExtremeRVing/photos/a.108987809437897/1468915960111735

A 4x4 is a major consumer of available payload and you would have been even more over weight on your payload than you are now.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by ExtremeRVing View Post
"Hey sourdough

You would be surprised how easy it is to get assistance from both Keystone, and Ford. BTW, it was not a 3 way conference call as you imply. That would have been interesting.

For the record, to make it very clear, we are not moving up to a 350 because of any issues in towing our RV, but rather, for other reasons, such as 4 wheel drive (4x4), as an example. Currently we have a 4x2, which is more than fine for highway work, but not very good for beaches or soft dirt roads, in general. If we had gotten the 4x4 version of the 150, and had the same towing capacity that we currently have, we would probably just stay with the 150. However, we decided to instead move up to a 350 so that we could potentially tow anything we consider over the next 10 years as far as an RV is considered. Also we are waiting for the 2022's because of a few new features that Ford will have in them as compared to 2021."


Hmmmm, no I would not be surprised. Having worked on Fords, GMs, Rams etc. for decades, along with Keystone trailers, no...I'm surprised that you had such success accessing avenues of information that no one else has....please share....and, that payload sticker that's been requested multiple times. :D

[German Shepherd Guy]

Thanks everyone for their feedback. I was mainly looking for feedback on trailer comparisons. I will be getting a new truck that supports what ever trailer I select. I "hope" to stay with a 1/2 ton, but will go up to 3/4 ton if necessary.

The Cougar that we seem to really like is the Cougar 22MLS that provides both theater seating and booth in a 26ft trailer. The layout is very similar to the Grand Design Imagine XLS 22MLE.
:popcorn: That looks like a really good floor plan AND a king bed. Nice choice:cool:

[JRTJH]

Thanks everyone for their feedback. I was mainly looking for feedback on trailer comparisons. I will be getting a new truck that supports what ever trailer I select. I "hope" to stay with a 1/2 ton, but will go up to 3/4 ton if necessary.

The Cougar that we seem to really like is the Cougar 22MLS that provides both theater seating and booth in a 26ft trailer. The layout is very similar to the Grand Design Imagine XLS 22MLE.

Now that your thread seems to be back on track, if the 22MLS is a floorplan that interests you, and if you're planning to dry camp with it, look closely at the tank storage capacity. There is only one gray water tank in that floorplan. What that means is a significantly reduced ability to use the 60 gallons of fresh water, because there's no place to store it when used.

There is a slightly increased gray capacity in the 22MLSWE (western edition) with 38 gallons of gray capacity over the 22MLS (eastern edition) which has 30 gallons. Eight gallons may not seem like much, but when dry camping, it could mean as much as an extra 25% storage capacity.

On the other hand, if you're planning to always use the trailer with full hookups, except for an occasional overnight, then gray tank storage capacity may not be as important. But, also consider that these days, many areas have many "water/electric sites" that may be available to reserve after all the full hookup sites are not available.... So, even when "intending to only use full hookup sites" sometimes that option is not an option.....

Maybe not a "deal breaker" but something to also consider...

[Miloski]

What the hell you scared for, you're at max or close to it and you'll luck they upgrade the 2019 hauling rate or you would be, but a nice truck. I drove a friends back for Arizona after he past away on a trip. You're not a bad ***, just another RV'r.

[P&DZ]

We ha e an older version of the current model 22RBSWE with a GVW of 7200lbs. We scale at about 6600lbs. We love the floor plan, great counter space and inside & outside storage and black/grey/fresh storage tanks. For the two of us it works well. Our 1/2 ton GMC has a payload of 1925lbs. I am sure a 3/4 ton would tow it better but the 1/2 ton is adequate with margin even in the Colorado Rockies. Don’t rule out a used TT, although well kept used ones may be difficult to find.

[Balvar24]

A 4x4 is a major consumer of available payload and you would have been even more over weight on your payload than you are now.

I thought the same thing, but for some wheel base/engine combinations it's not the case if you're going by the Ford tow manual. The differences aren't much.

[sourdough]

I thought the same thing, but for some wheel base/engine combinations it's not the case if you're going by the Ford tow manual. The differences aren't much.

Go by the sticker on the door, not the brochure/manual, they will be optimistic and misleading....on purpose.

[wiredgeorge]

I thought the same thing, but for some wheel base/engine combinations it's not the case if you're going by the Ford tow manual. The differences aren't much.


Danny is right... go by payload sticker. My comment was general. Take a 3/4 ton diesel crew cab long wheelbase 4x4 and compare it to a 4x2 equipped otherwise identically. The 4x4 front axle weighs a good deal more and thus a 4x4 option decreases payload from the identical 4x2. If you look at charts, hopefully you are looking at identically equipped models of the same truck with the exception of 4x4 vs 4x2.

[jxnbbl]

Out of curiosity RE: payload stickers...


Our RAM 2500 Cummins diesel has some obscene "towing capacity", but as stated here the payload is only something like 2100 on the sticker. (engine plays a part here) It was the main reason we didn't get a small 5th wheel this month. I think the only one that would make the grade was a Grand Design 27 footer.



Anyways "due to availability" when we bought the truck it came with the factory option of a 5th wheel hitch. So the question....is that hitch built into the sticker payload calculation?

[flybouy]

Out of curiosity RE: payload stickers...


Our RAM 2500 Cummins diesel has some obscene "towing capacity", but as stated here the payload is only something like 2100 on the sticker. (engine plays a part here) It was the main reason we didn't get a small 5th wheel this month. I think the only one that would make the grade was a Grand Design 27 footer.



Anyways "due to availability" when we bought the truck it came with the factory option of a 5th wheel hitch. So the question....is that hitch built into the sticker payload calculation?

If it came from the factory then yes.

[jasin1]

Out of curiosity RE: payload stickers...


Our RAM 2500 Cummins diesel has some obscene "towing capacity", but as stated here the payload is only something like 2100 on the sticker. (engine plays a part here) It was the main reason we didn't get a small 5th wheel this month. I think the only one that would make the grade was a Grand Design 27 footer.



Anyways "due to availability" when we bought the truck it came with the factory option of a 5th wheel hitch. So the question....is that hitch built into the sticker payload calculation?

If it’s on the factory sticker..the original actual sticker (not a dealer added addendum 2nd sticker) then I’d say it’s included. The factory sticker is basically a build sheet and all the options are taken into account when they reach the actually payload. Yours would probably be close to 2300 lbs without the hitch

[sourdough]

Out of curiosity RE: payload stickers...


Our RAM 2500 Cummins diesel has some obscene "towing capacity", but as stated here the payload is only something like 2100 on the sticker. (engine plays a part here) It was the main reason we didn't get a small 5th wheel this month. I think the only one that would make the grade was a Grand Design 27 footer.



Anyways "due to availability" when we bought the truck it came with the factory option of a 5th wheel hitch. So the question....is that hitch built into the sticker payload calculation?



Just to clarify; your truck came with the optional 5th wheel prep package in the bed OR the actual hitch along with the mounting apparatus? Whichever one it was that was included in the OEM build sheet it would be included in the payload listed on the door. If however it came with the prep package only an added hitch would then be deducted from the available payload on the door.

[travelin texans]

Out of curiosity RE: payload stickers...


Our RAM 2500 Cummins diesel has some obscene "towing capacity", but as stated here the payload is only something like 2100 on the sticker. (engine plays a part here) It was the main reason we didn't get a small 5th wheel this month. I think the only one that would make the grade was a Grand Design 27 footer.



Anyways "due to availability" when we bought the truck it came with the factory option of a 5th wheel hitch. So the question....is that hitch built into the sticker payload calculation?

That "obscene towing capacity" with "only XXXX payload" are the numbers that get lots of folks into something more than they can safely handle.
Because it can "tow" that obscene amount doesn't mean it can "carry" the associated pin/tongue weight of that obscene amount & I'll assure you that if, by some remote chance, your dealer knew the difference he's not about to tell you & miss a sale.

[jxnbbl]

Last few...


I fully understand payload and as I stated, it is the primary reason I stuck with a trailer instead of a 5th wheel.



Yes, it is on the sticker listed before the "destination charge" - 20,000 lb Direct-mount 5th-wheel hitch $1,075...is has sat in my garage since delivery as when/if I go the 5th wheel route I would upgrade to basically the same truck but 3500. Its good to know I can take myself out of my payload calculation!



Or it will be sold along my 30A progressive EMS and 30A extension cord due to 50A service with my new trailer.

[JRTJH]

Regardless of what's "supposed to be included on a yellow sticker" or "what may/may not be included on the yellow sticker", IMHO, it always benefits a truck owner to drive across a scale to see the relationship between the assembly line's computer calculations (that's how the yellow sticker is calculated) and what a certified scale says the vehicle weighs.

Most people are surprised when they look at a weigh ticket and subtract that from the GVWR to calculate their "real world payload". Seldom, if ever, does a yellow sticker reflect accurately what a weigh slip reveals.

That set of tie down straps, the bungee cords, the maps, the spare fuses in the glove compartment, the TPMS, that roll of paper towels, the bottle of diesel fuel conditioner, the change in the console, the registration and insurance card...

You get the idea. Everything we "add to the truck that doesn't weigh much" all does add up to much more than most of us realize. A $12 trip across a CAT scale is, for almost everyone, an "eye-opener"....

[machz]

Thanks everyone for their feedback. I was mainly looking for feedback on trailer comparisons. I will be getting a new truck that supports what ever trailer I select. I "hope" to stay with a 1/2 ton, but will go up to 3/4 ton if necessary.

The Cougar that we seem to really like is the Cougar 22MLS that provides both theater seating and booth in a 26ft trailer. The layout is very similar to the Grand Design Imagine XLS 22MLE.


I own a 22MLS and I do tow it with a 1/2 f150. I'm not going to get into the 1/2 ton debate but I will say I just ran from NH to FL over the blue ridge mountains in the wind and surrounded by tractor trailers and bumper to bumper traffic going 50+ near Washington DC and it performed perfectly. I run an equalizer4 WDH and I'm within all of my numbers but close to my payload max(Cat scale not a guess). It's just my wife and I and we don't put anything in the truck but us and the storage limits what we can bring in the trailer.


That aside we absolutely love the RV. The size is perfect for the two of us and the layout works perfect as well. I have the residential fridge that stayed ice cold for 15+ hours on the battery as we were on the road. We changed out the mattress and the rv king is a great size. I really can't think of any negatives for us with the 22MLS.

[gregrc75]

Have you decided on a trailer? I was hoping to get some opinions on Cougar vs Premier because that is what I am debating right now as well.
Been a happy Premier owner but thinking of "stepping up" to a Cougar for the heavier axles and bigger tires. But not sure that is a better choice than the Premier (with opposing slides) I am considering with more floor space since we have 2 labs.
22 Premier 25RK vs 22 Cougar 25RDS.

[RVfan58]

Some unfortunate misinformation in this thread. Your truck's Payload capacity has very little to do with the Tow Capacity and is not really part or only a small part of the calculation (more if we're talking 5th wheel). There are many factors that go into an ACCURATE Tow Capacity calculation and they are not all on the inside of your door frame.


While there are websites that you can visit that may give you a ballpark, the single best approach is to call your dealer's service department with your VIN# and they should always be able to give you the actual factory rated tow capacity.


And for example, any given model of F-150 is produced in a range of tow capacities. So you need to find out the VIN specific tow capacity for your vehicle.


Once you know that, the best heuristic is to subtract 1500lbs from your tow capacity and that represents the maximum recommended dry or unloaded weight for your selected trailer. You can make it less, but at the risk of your suspension and drive train.


And if you think you might be working your suspension too hard, a very inexpensive improvement that will take a chunk of the load off is too install an airbag kit.


Hope that helps some folks.

[RVfan58]

Have you decided on a trailer? I was hoping to get some opinions on Cougar vs Premier because that is what I am debating right now as well.
Been a happy Premier owner but thinking of "stepping up" to a Cougar for the heavier axles and bigger tires. But not sure that is a better choice than the Premier (with opposing slides) I am considering with more floor space since we have 2 labs.
22 Premier 25RK vs 22 Cougar 25RDS.




Don't own either but know that you can't go wrong with either choice. Both are really well made vehicles with exceptional features. Choose the decor, style and floor plan that suits you best.

[flybouy]

Some unfortunate misinformation in this thread. Your truck's Payload capacity has very little to do with the Tow Capacity and is not really part or only a small part of the calculation (more if we're talking 5th wheel). There are many factors that go into an ACCURATE Tow Capacity calculation and they are not all on the inside of your door frame.


While there are websites that you can visit that may give you a ballpark, the single best approach is to call your dealer's service department with your VIN# and they should always be able to give you the actual factory rated tow capacity.


And for example, any given model of F-150 is produced in a range of tow capacities. So you need to find out the VIN specific tow capacity for your vehicle.


Once you know that, the best heuristic is to subtract 1500lbs from your tow capacity and that represents the maximum recommended dry or unloaded weight for your selected trailer. You can make it less, but at the risk of your suspension and drive train.


And if you think you might be working your suspension too hard, a very inexpensive improvement that will take a chunk of the load off is too install an airbag kit.


Hope that helps some folks.

I'm sorry but this is exactly the sort of misinformation that gets folks into a potetial dangerous overloaded condition. Lets define the terms.

Towing capacity - this is how much theoretical weight the vehichle can PULL. They use a trailer loaded with weights at a low center of gravity with little tongue weight. Rarely does this number get exceeded first.

Load capacity - this is how much weight the truck can CARRY. This number is typically the FIRST to be exceeded when towing campers. Both the tow capacity and load capacity can be limited by a hitch that's rated at a lower capacity.

There are 2 axle weight capacities, front gaw and rear gaw that limit how much weight each individual axle can CARRY. Then there's the gvw the gross weight the tow vehichle itself can weigh and the gcvw or gross combined vehichle weight.

ALL of these numbers are important and NON OF THEM should be exceeded.

[wiredgeorge]

New guy comes on and immediately tells folks payload is just some number and the VIN in the hands of a dealer will give you tow capacity (even if the truck is greatly overloaded and hence liable for legal issues in the event of a wreck).

The RVfan tossed his bait into the pond and guess who nibbled and took it? Bwhahahaha :lol:

[sourdough]

Some unfortunate misinformation in this thread. Your truck's Payload capacity has very little to do with the Tow Capacity and is not really part or only a small part of the calculation (more if we're talking 5th wheel). There are many factors that go into an ACCURATE Tow Capacity calculation and they are not all on the inside of your door frame.


While there are websites that you can visit that may give you a ballpark, the single best approach is to call your dealer's service department with your VIN# and they should always be able to give you the actual factory rated tow capacity.


And for example, any given model of F-150 is produced in a range of tow capacities. So you need to find out the VIN specific tow capacity for your vehicle.


Once you know that, the best heuristic is to subtract 1500lbs from your tow capacity and that represents the maximum recommended dry or unloaded weight for your selected trailer. You can make it less, but at the risk of your suspension and drive train.


And if you think you might be working your suspension too hard, a very inexpensive improvement that will take a chunk of the load off is too install an airbag kit.


Hope that helps some folks.


Unfortunately this post is filled with inaccurate "misinformation". Very little if any is accurate and fails to even mention the more important aspects of towing safely weight wise. What are you pulling that Jayco with, that might shed some light on your oversights?

[travelin texans]

Some unfortunate misinformation in this thread. Your truck's Payload capacity has very little to do with the Tow Capacity and is not really part or only a small part of the calculation (more if we're talking 5th wheel). There are many factors that go into an ACCURATE Tow Capacity calculation and they are not all on the inside of your door frame.


While there are websites that you can visit that may give you a ballpark, the single best approach is to call your dealer's service department with your VIN# and they should always be able to give you the actual factory rated tow capacity.


And for example, any given model of F-150 is produced in a range of tow capacities. So you need to find out the VIN specific tow capacity for your vehicle.


Once you know that, the best heuristic is to subtract 1500lbs from your tow capacity and that represents the maximum recommended dry or unloaded weight for your selected trailer. You can make it less, but at the risk of your suspension and drive train.


And if you think you might be working your suspension too hard, a very inexpensive improvement that will take a chunk of the load off is too install an airbag kit.


Hope that helps some folks.

Must be a rv or truck salesman!
Sounds just like the same spiel of inaccurate information they give to new rv owners that get most of them in an overloaded situation!
In the real rv world the "tow capacities" of trucks & "dry" rv weights are ABSOLUTELY useless. The payload, whether from the door post or calculated from scales, will be exceeded long before safely "towing" that exaggravated tow weight truck manufacturers brag about.
In order to get a ballpark weight use the payload on the yellow/white tag on the trucks door jamb compared to the appropriate percentage of tongue or pin weight of the chosen rvs GVWR posted on the manufacturers tag on the driver's side front corner.
DO NOT use advertised or online numbers & especially anything concerning weights from a rv or truck salesman. The published numbers are usually very low & salespeople are there to sell whether they know better or not.
And just for record, airbags add ABSOLUTELY no increase in load carrying capacity. They are however a good add-on to level your truck &/or improve loaded ride, but the weight of that equipment comes off the payload.

[gregrc75]

Don't own either but know that you can't go wrong with either choice. Both are really well made vehicles with exceptional features. Choose the decor, style and floor plan that suits you best.

Thanks! I did go with the Cougar. Happy so far!

[RLundin]

Sorry for the debate about 1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton trucks and how to measure carrying capacity and two capacity. I was only asking about Cougar vs Premier vs Outback travel trailers.

[wiredgeorge]

Sorry for the debate about 1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton trucks and how to measure carrying capacity and two capacity. I was only asking about Cougar vs Premier vs Outback travel trailers.

You asked in the context where payload was the key point folks commented on. Others jumped in with some not so good tips and others corrected those giving dangerous or incorrect advice. Hope you picked out the camper you are to purchase!

[sourdough]

Sorry for the debate about 1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton trucks and how to measure carrying capacity and two capacity. I was only asking about Cougar vs Premier vs Outback travel trailers.


The "debate" happens constantly so no need to worry. The door was opened by asking about what trailer fits with a "1/2 ton truck" which then has to be quantified since no numbers were given and the truck was left open ended. No big deal. Hopefully you got, or can get, the info you were looking for on the trailers and get a truck to properly match your choice.