Cannot Install Ladder

[Rhytech]

I'm a new RV owner of a 2021 Bullet 243 BHS. I had looked into having the dealer install a ladder as the RV did not come with one but has been "prepped for rear ladder". Complete with shiny Keysyone sticker :)

However, when the dealer looked at the schematic, Keystone made the ladder prep only where the rear windows are. So the ladder would go right over top of the windows. Not a big deal, right? Wrong. The one window is the rear emergency ext window and IF a ladder was installed it would block the exit.

Did Keystone really make this a terrible design or am I missing something? Any suggestions? Thanks!

[sourdough]

Is the roof walkable? If not that would explain no ladder and the window design not accommodating one.

[wiredgeorge]

I have a rear ladder but it is really too skinny and the rungs too far apart for a "mature" person like myself to climb comfortably. I bought a 12.5' extending ladder which is light and easily stored for times I want to venture on my roof:


https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Telescopic-Extension-Ladder-Telescope/dp/B07K7W2KKB/ref=pd_lpo_60_t_0/141-4450133-7918021?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07K7W2KKB&pd_rd_r=1eff86d1-854e-45e4-b1d7-4ad0e3d4e58a&pd_rd_w=ygQkS&pd_rd_wg=LmXtQ&pf_rd_p=7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b&pf_rd_r=GQ5Q6QKNX7YH3RJKKH74&psc=1&refRID=GQ5Q6QKNX7YH3RJKKH74

[flybouy]

I think your dealer is mistaken. The only option I see on the Keystone website is for theater seating. As for the stickers, well they've been known to incorrect in the past.... Incorrect labeling on holding tank valves, incorrect "mount TV here" labels, even 50 Amp label at the 30 Amp shore power connection.

[wiredgeorge]

I think your dealer is mistaken. The only option I see on the Keystone website is for theater seating. As for the stickers, well they've been known to incorrect in the past.... Incorrect labeling on holding tank valves, incorrect "mount TV here" labels, even 50 Amp label at the 30 Amp shore power connection.


I looked at the Bullet factory brochure and it says the roof is walkable. I also looked at pics of the OP's model and the rear window was only half the width of the rear of the trailer and offset to the right side. No reason they couldn't have put a ladder on but suspect since the Bullet line is more a base model, perhaps ladders are not installed to save a few bucks. Putting a sticker where the ladder would go over the window doesn't make sense. I also looked at a number of pics of 2021 Bullets (same model) rear and none had stickers. Maybe the sticker guy at the factory was bored...

[chuckster57]

Can you get a pic of the schematic for the rear wall? If the left side has the needed framework then I don't see a reason why they cant put one on. If the framing is on the right side I can see the issue.

[Rhytech]

Thanks everyone, good stuff here so far.

Yes, the roof is walkable.

wiredgeorge is correct, the window (emergency exit) takes up half of the back wall and there is easily enough space to put a ladder on the other side. The dealer has gotten the schematics from Keystone and it prepped to be installed only on the side with the windows. So chuckster, that's exactly it, the left side cannot install cause it doesn't have the framework. It's an issue, and some engineer at Keystone needs to be fired!

[chuckster57]

It's an issue, and some engineer at Keystone needs to be fired!

Its probably not an engineering error but more likely an error on the production line. station "X" is responsible for the rear wall and since units are FLYING OFF THE LINE, the guy at at that station probably just stuck a sticker on and let it go to the next station where another guy puts the wrong labels on the drain valves and then another station for the 50A sticker over the 30A connection.

[travelin texans]

You have to visit the factory, then you'll realize these are not the sharpest pencils in the drawer putting these things together, most were flipping burgers yesterday at McDs & after their 15 minute training course are now assembly line technicians.
As George suggested get yourself a lightweight ladder of some sort to carry, you'll be much better off. Of course this doesn't help if you were planning on carrying all sorts of stuff on that ladder.
Try the new Murphy ladder they're advertising at HD, I looked it up & appears lightweight, inexpensive & handy, looks like great deal for rvers.

[Rhytech]

Yeah, unfortunately, I was planning on hauling my sewage tote on the ladder. However, we'll have to look at a rear storage unit instead. Thanks a lot for the suggestions, I'm off to buy a ladder I guess!

[JRTJH]

Its probably not an engineering error but more likely an error on the production line. station "X" is responsible for the rear wall and since units are FLYING OFF THE LINE, the guy at at that station probably just stuck a sticker on and let it go to the next station where another guy puts the wrong labels on the drain valves and then another station for the 50A sticker over the 30A connection.

Or, since the rear wall is "not laminated, but installed by components" someone just installed the rear wall "backwards"... that would account for the "reinforcement on the roof not lining up with the reinforcement location on the rear wall...

Honestly, if you look critically at those "escape windows" and how difficult they are to open and even more difficult to climb through, does it really "much matter about where the ladder is installed" ???

More things than you can imagine are "dreamed up by RVIA" and "incorporated by the industry" in so many ways that it's laughable at the implementation.... Think about things like the "EXIT" decal over the only exterior door, the tiny "sewer outlet" decal located over each dump valve handle or the "locate TV here" decal that's "slapped on the wall somewhat close to the backer plate".... And then there's the maximum weight decal located in the only outside storage area in the trailer (as if you could move some heavy items to another outside storage area)....

And, let's not forget that rear bumper with its maximum load decal !!!!!

[Northofu1]

My model has two rear windows, neither emergency escapes, the ladder is installed over the drivers side window. I also have the 15.5 Multitech telescopic ladder from HD.

[Paulyd99]

I've seen this line quoted on so many threads and I don;t understand why. Was this something that was true in the past and isn't a thing anymore? I have watched countless videos on YT that say all the roofs on New Passports are walkable, yet they do not come with a ladder. I've even questioned several dealers about this and ALL have said the same thing. Walkable... just no ladder.

[sourdough]

You probably want to do a little more research on your findings. I can find nothing from Keystone that says the all roofs on the Passports are walkable. Have you found that documentation. Realize that youtube videos from dealers are inaccurate at best - they will tell you what you want to hear to sell the unit. As far as "walkable", I suppose they all are whether they are meant to be or not. Just depends on what measure of risk or precautions on wants to take to "walk" on it.

There have been recent posts about the rear wall of some units being braced for a ladder but it's not there with the owner assuming a walkable roof. I've not seen the outcome of any of those attempts. IMO you err on the side of safety and historical proofs. If Keystone will provide you a written, bulletproof letter stating your roof is walkable I would proceed and let them take the hit if it failed. Without that, and just assuming, places you in the driver's seat for anything that happens.

[travelin texans]

Watching dealers videos or reading their brochures is definitely maybe at best, but a salesman telling you anything of any value or truth is highly questionable.

[Paulyd99]

Starting to see that. I reached out to manufacturer directly. Let’s see what answer I get.

[LHaven]

The one window is the rear emergency ext window and IF a ladder was installed it would block the exit.

Did Keystone really make this a terrible design or am I missing something?

You might enjoy seeing where these rocket scientists located my park cable input.

I had a learning moment discovering that license plate hinges are much rarer items than I had expected.

[flybouy]

You might enjoy seeing where these rocket scientists located my park cable input.

I had a learning moment discovering that license plate hinges are much rarer items than I had expected.

Hey, in Keystone's defense that tag wasn't there when they built it. :lol:

[chuckster57]

Poor placement? I’ve lost count of how many black tank rinser ports are directly above the shore power connection, shore power directly above the furnace exhaust....don’t get me started. :facepalm:

[Bill-2020]

Wait just one second there! I'm supposed to have "Sewer Outlet" stickers?! I got the 50amp sticker next to my 30amp connection instead of the sewer stickers... dang I feel ripped off :lol:

[flybouy]

Wait just one second there! I'm supposed to have "Sewer Outlet" stickers?! I got the 50amp sticker next to my 30amp connection instead of the sewer stickers... dang I feel ripped off :lol:

Shhhhhh! Don't let them know about the "upgrade" Amp sticker they may want to ask for an "upcharge" for that option!:hide:

[Bill-2020]

Shhhhhh! Don't let them know about the "upgrade" Amp sticker they may want to ask for an "upcharge" for that option!:hide:

If I can get that 50amp sticker off cleanly enough, I'm gonna slap it on the side of the riding mower. :lol:

[JRTJH]

If I can get that 50amp sticker off cleanly enough, I'm gonna slap it on the side of the riding mower. :lol:

I'm not sure on this, but that 50 amp sticker might be like the mattress stickers: DO NOT REMOVE UNDER PENALTY OF LAW.....

Wouldn't want you going to jail with a sticker in the wrong place on the wrong equipment !!!!! :popcorn:

[flybouy]

Reminds me of the kids who bought the early Mustangs of the 1960's. If it had the 200 six they'd go buy the 289 V8 badges for the front fenders.:lol:

[chuckster57]

Reminds me of the kids who bought the early Mustangs of the 1960's. If it had the 200 six they'd go buy the 289 V8 badges for the front fenders.:lol:

I found a set of brand new V10 badges in a motorhome. Thinking about putting them on my Kia Soul :D

[flybouy]

Years ago I was in Boston and Hertz ran out of cars and I had to take a Jeep Compass. They had just hit the market. Drove it for the 3 days I was there and when I returned it I asked them if they could open the hood. When the attendant asked why I told him I had a bet with someone and wanted to see if it was powered by Tecumseh or Briggs & Stratton. I swear my riding mower had more power.

[wiredgeorge]

I lived with my family overseas for quite a few years from the early 70s to 1983. We had our beloved Chevy Vega wagon that was still under 20K miles but had been dropped HARD when unloading from a ship and the thing rattled so badly it was scary. I had set aside funds to buy a NEW CAR but was kind of naive about price increases. Went to the Chevy dealer and asked what I could buy for $4000 and he asked me if I had been doing time; really.


Anyway, they had a Mercury Zeypher (I think it had additional names). It was a family sedan and was kind of nice looking with a vinyl roof and was a 3 speed stick if memory serves. It had a really nice interior and although used, look and smelled new. Drove it a mile or two and took it home as our new family vehicle.



First trip, filled it up, put my 3 little girls in the back and headed to Ohio to visit my wife's kin folk. Going up a hill on the PA Turnpike, had to resort to the truck lane and drive up the hiills in a lower gear. It was embarrassing. Found the car had been built for a gas shortage and was equipped with a TINY 4 cylinder engine in what was then a full size car. A short time later went back to the Chevy dealer and bought a new 1985 Caprice Classic 2 door with V8 and automatic and my wife and daughters drove that thing for over 10 years. I rode a motorcycle to work and eventually got a real old VW bug to take on rainy (and rare snow) days.

[Paulyd99]

So I just got an email back from Keystone and they said ANY Passport manufactured after September 2019 has a walkable roof. Regardless of wether it has a ladder or not.

My initial email is below his response.

Hey Paul
That is true in some instances. However, Passport started installing walk on roofs in September 2019. If you have a vin #, you can call Keystone customer service to verify.





John Thomas
Key Connect Program Manager
Keystone RV Company
[email protected]
Desk: 574-535-1492

re: I read in the owners manual online a section that said “if a camper does not have a ladder, the roof is not walkable”. Is that just old information?

[JRTJH]

So I just got an email back from Keystone and they said ANY Passport manufactured after September 2019 has a walkable roof. Regardless of wether it has a ladder or not.

My initial email is below his response.

Hey Paul
That is true in some instances. However, Passport started installing walk on roofs in September 2019. If you have a vin #, you can call Keystone customer service to verify.





John Thomas
Key Connect Program Manager
Keystone RV Company
[email protected]
Desk: 574-535-1492

re: I read in the owners manual online a section that said “if a camper does not have a ladder, the roof is not walkable”. Is that just old information?


Did you, by chance, in your conversations, establish a "weight limit" or just that, "The roofs are walkable" if built after September, 2019 ??? In other words, "What is the definition of "walkable roof" or "walk on roof" ????

[Paulyd99]

I did not. Excellent point. They did not specify either.

[Bill-2020]

I did not. Excellent point. They did not specify either.

...And the plot thickens... (Keystone will now get a rash of calls from new Passport owners with a VIN in hand.)

[Paulyd99]

I asked... the answer still doesn’t seem definitive.

Hi Paul
I have been told the roof ladders hold 250#, so I would use that as a guide line.





John Thomas
Key Connect Program Manager
Keystone RV Company
[email protected]
Desk: 574-535-1492

[sourdough]

I asked... the answer still doesn’t seem definitive.

Hi Paul
I have been told the roof ladders hold 250#, so I would use that as a guide line.





John Thomas
Key Connect Program Manager
Keystone RV Company
[email protected]
Desk: 574-535-1492



Aside from the question about the roof being walkable or not, which is still questionable to me, the above comment that Mr. Thomas "has been told" the ladder will support 250lbs. is problematic to me.

My roof ladders (including the one on this new MHC) came from the factory. I wouldn't let 250lbs. get near a rung on it. I had the dealer do a roof mtce. on my previous trailer. The tech doing it (saw him upon pick up) weighed maybe 180. Got home and the top handles were bent and EVERY single screw on every mounting bracket was loose. If he had been 250 who knows what would have happened.

[Paulyd99]

It’s insane!! Amazes me that you cannot get a straight answer on something that is completely reasonable to ask. Obviously, the reason nobody wants to answer definitively is to reduce or remove liability.

[Bill-2020]

According to the doc’s balance scale last week I’m in at 216, so if I carry the new a/c across the roof I’ve overloaded it with each footstep... guess I’ll pick up some plywood and make myself a walkway from the side or rear. Rear is easier in this instance for me. Thanks for the additional information from Keystone. Much appreciated, sir.

[JRTJH]

OK, let's make it "really confusing".....

First, Keystone uses "less than grade 1 plywood (cheapest bid, probably CDX, which is grade C face, grade D inner layer, grade X bottom layer)...

If we're "lucky" all of our roof trusses are 16" on center without any deviations... Think about how wide the space is for the air conditioner, and you get the idea some of them may be further apart than 16"...

Here's the APA Load Span Tables for plywood: http://www.pacificwoodlaminates.com/img/PDFs/APA/APA_LoadSpanTables.pdf Look at Table 3: 3/8" grade 1 sanded plywood is rated at 79 pounds per square foot when installed on trusses 16" on center....

Now, let's look at our "feet in shoes"... Most men wear shoes that are around 12" long, 4" wide, which is 48 square inches... That's 1/3 of a square foot... We have 2 feet, but when we walk, our ENTIRE body weight is applied to one foot (the other one is in the air)....

So, if you weigh 200 pounds, when "walking on the roof, wearing shoes" you are applying roughly 200 pounds to 1/3 of a square foot of "cheaper than the Grade 1 rating" plywood... So, the potential to damage the roof by walking on it is increased based on "cheaper (inferior) materials, walking with 1 foot in the air, twisting on the TPO (which causes stretching) and if you're carrying anything, you're going to increase the weight above that 200 pounds per 0.33 sqft....

Now, if your trailer is an "ultralight" model with 1/4" plywood sheet decking, you can imagine why we say, "USE RIGID FOAM TO SPREAD YOUR WEIGHT"...

Is it any wonder why nobody at Keystone will tell you, "Sure, you weigh 226 pounds, you're safe to walk on your roof, but if you weigh 227, you can't walk on it"... Then, when the claim comes in that you were "relying on what Tom told me yesterday in your CS department" and I was carrying a new air conditioner across the roof and my foot broke through the plywood... You owe me a new roof because I was doing what Tom said I could do.....

Ain't gonna happen.... You also won't find anyone at Ford that will tell you that it's OK to sit on the hood of your new SuperDuty.... Although it's probably designed to hold 300 or 400 pounds, but not in "every location on the hood"....

[wiredgeorge]

I think I am getting a headache! Bhwhahahahaha Bill-2020... to get the new A/C on the roof, DO NOT use the Keystone roof ladder but use a ladder on the side of the camper adjacent to where the A/C install is to occur. Make sure you have a nice long ladder and put the base out from the camper a little farther than if you were just climbing. Anyway, get up on top; use a tie down strap(s) around the A/C and pull it up the ladder once you are on top with a GOOD friend below walking it up the ladder from below as best he can. Don't repeat don't try and muscle the A/C on your shoulder going up the camper's ladder. I suspect if you do you should have that friend video tape the thing as it will be a great youtube video!

[Bill-2020]

I think I am getting a headache! Bhwhahahahaha Bill-2020... to get the new A/C on the roof, DO NOT use the Keystone roof ladder but use a ladder on the side of the camper adjacent to where the A/C install is to occur. Make sure you have a nice long ladder and put the base out from the camper a little farther than if you were just climbing. Anyway, get up on top; use a tie down strap(s) around the A/C and pull it up the ladder once you are on top with a GOOD friend below walking it up the ladder from below as best he can. Don't repeat don't try and muscle the A/C on your shoulder going up the camper's ladder. I suspect if you do you should have that friend video tape the thing as it will be a great youtube video!

:lol: Take two aspirin for that brain pain. I don't have a ladder on the passport (less holes to worry about!). Yes, I already have a 20' extension ladder, a plywood "sled" with 2x4 rails constructed to pull the new a/c up the ladder and slide the old one down. I remember huffing packs of shingles over my shoulder and up a ladder in my early 20s on my mothers house... August, ABQ... hot as all get out. But it was a dry heat! :banghead: An a/c is just too bulky to try that.

[travelin texans]

Not sure why anyone would want to add the cheap a## factory ladder, there are much better ladders to access the roof, whether it's walkable or not. If it's to be able to strap stuff to then that's not advisable either, eventually that crap tied to it will just break it off.