Progressive Industries EMS-HW50C E2 error message

[WarEagle]

Ok, picked up my camper and took it to its permanent setup location.

We had an issue with the EMS-HW50C :facepalm: and I needed some feedback :confused:. I put the EMS in bypass mode so I could get power temporarily.

We were getting the E2 error message which is an open ground issue. I have a inverter installed for the Samsung fridge. Currently the inverter is turned on; however I have shore power plugged in.

Could it be the fact that the inverter is powered on? Should the inverter be turned off? We will be leaving food in the fridge and I am worried in the event of a surge that the food will go bad.

Or is it that the installer did not install the EMS-HW50C correctly due to the inverter?

Or could it be that I need to call the power company to review my power box for an issue?

THANK YOU FOR ANY FEEDBACK!!!

[WarEagle]

BTW - I do not have a generator.

[PARAPTOR]

Couple questions: when you said just picked it up, is this the first tine that you have been there when it was connected to shore power? Remember that inverter is a separate 110 VAC source in your case just for the frig. Have you tried another camp site pedestal?

[Javi]

Turn off the inverter... Then unplug the power cord for at least two minutes to reset the EMS... then plug the power cord back in and see if the fault is gone... If it faults again call the electrician...

BTW bypassing the EMS with a ground fault is not a safe thing to do...

[sourdough]

Is the site a new one? Is the 50A service new or have you used it before?

Follow the above instructions and if it doesn't work you might do the following;

Take a vom set to ohms and check the ground pin on the receptacle by sticking the neg wire to the meter in it then put the other lead to a known good ground at the ped. If the ground is good you should peg the meter (set at 200/1000 ohms. If it doesn't move or just moves slightly you have a bad ground. Or, set the meter to AC, 200 volts (or something over 120), put the negative lead in the ground receptacle and the pos. lead into each of the positive leads from the 50A plug. You should read 120v on each leg; if not, put the neg. lead in the neutral receptacle and repeat - you should see 120vac there on each leg. If you read voltage to the neutral and but not from the ground you have a bad ground. Just some things to check if the aforementioned items don't find the problem.

[Outback 325BH]

Sounds like the inverter has a floating neutral just like most (all) inverter generators.

A simple $5 circuit tester would diagnose the problem.

If the problem is an open neutral, the question would be, it the inverter supposed to be setup like that? If so, a simple neutral/ground bond plug would quickly fix the problem.


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[WarEagle]

This is a lot I purchased at an RV park. So no testing on another site. People have used the site previous to me. I go back this weekend so I will try the suggestions above.

Thank you!

[xrated]

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding EMS systems, they are there to monitor INCOMING power from the pedestal....not what's happening downstream of the device. If that's the case, the inverter would have nothing to do with the E-2 fault.

Sourdough have some good advice, albeit a bit confusing when referring to using the meter on ohms setting. The bottom line is to take an ohm reading from the ground pin of the receptacle to a known good ground and the reading should be right at zero ohms. If it reads open our has a high resistance, the pedestal has an open ground just like the EMS reported to you

[Outback 325BH]

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding EMS systems, they are there to monitor INCOMING power from the pedestal....not what's happening downstream of the device. If that's the case, the inverter would have nothing to do with the E-2 fault.

Sourdough have some good advice, albeit a bit confusing when referring to using the meter on ohms setting. The bottom line is to take an ohm reading from the ground pin of the receptacle to a known good ground and the reading should be right at zero ohms. If it reads open our has a high resistance, the pedestal has an open ground just like the EMS reported to you



An inverter would be in incoming ac power.


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[sourdough]

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding EMS systems, they are there to monitor INCOMING power from the pedestal....not what's happening downstream of the device. If that's the case, the inverter would have nothing to do with the E-2 fault.

Sourdough have some good advice, albeit a bit confusing when referring to using the meter on ohms setting. The bottom line is to take an ohm reading from the ground pin of the receptacle to a known good ground and the reading should be right at zero ohms. If it reads open our has a high resistance, the pedestal has an open ground just like the EMS reported to you

Ha!! I guess I carried a Simpson 260 analog meter for so many years that I was just seeing that needle peg the scale:facepalm: Forgot we all use digital meters now:o

[xrated]

An inverter would be in incoming ac power.


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OK, I'm new to the RV world, as most of you probably know, and I don't have an inverter in my Toy Hauler, so I've got zero experience with them. So let me ask this....
Does the output from the Inverter (120VAC) come into the Surge Supressor/EMS on the same side of it, as the shore power and or genreator?

[xrated]

Ha!! I guess I carried a Simpson 260 analog meter for so many years that I was just seeing that needle peg the scale:facepalm: Forgot we all use digital meters now:o

Ahh yes, the old reliable Simpson 260. When I was going through my Electrical Apprenticeship, where I worked, and you finally got your setup to Journeyman, the company gave you your own personal Simpson 260 to use. But after years and years of use, and the advent of the newer digital meters like the Fluke brand, I ended up giving mine to someone....and let it go. We weren't allow to take it with us when we retired, but I did leave with a Fluke 87, a Fluke 78, and another one that I don't remember the number of.

[sourdough]

Ahh yes, the old reliable Simpson 260. When I was going through my Electrical Apprenticeship, where I worked, and you finally got your setup to Journeyman, the company gave you your own personal Simpson 260 to use. But after years and years of use, and the advent of the newer digital meters like the Fluke brand, I ended up giving mine to someone....and let it go. We weren't allow to take it with us when we retired, but I did leave with a Fluke 87, a Fluke 78, and another one that I don't remember the number of.

When we phased out the Simpson's we went to Fluke as well. Digital was much better when looking for fluctuating voltage etc. but I wouldn't get rid of my Simpson. It, and I, were getting pretty long in the tooth when I dropped it off a ladder. Even though it had the hard cover with the sliding front it ended my Simpson..........:( Sorry for getting off topic - back to the thread:)

[Outback 325BH]

OK, I'm new to the RV world, as most of you probably know, and I don't have an inverter in my Toy Hauler, so I've got zero experience with them. So let me ask this....

Does the output from the Inverter (120VAC) come into the Surge Supressor/EMS on the same side of it, as the shore power and or genreator?



Most of the time an EMS is installed close to the breaker box which has a single input. When rigs have inverters, they are usually installed upstream. Something has to switch the power so there isn't two power inputs to the main ac panel at the same time. The EMS can be installed close to the panel so the input to the EMS would be from any source (shore, inverter, generator, etc.).

It is a matter of where the EMS was installed and how the inverter was installed. Lots of configurations out there ranging from factory to home-grown.

The E2 error code from the PI EMS is when the ground and neutral are not bonded. This is a classic error when using a generator with a open/floating neutral and is easily fixed with a bonding plug inserted into a receptacle on the generator. I simply figured the same problem could be from the inverter. I could be wrong but was wanting to throw and idea out there that could be easily fixed... although I don't know if there is a receptacle on the inverter or if there is an option on the inverter to bond.

When on shore power, neutral/ground bonding occur upstream from the pedestal... or possibly at the pedestal, depending on how it is installed.

If you ever look inside your main breaker panel, you will see the neutrals isolated from the grounds via separate buss bars. This is because neutral/ground bonding should occur in only one location. This is why a generator or inverter that does not provide the bonding causes an error in the EMS. A simple plug that connects (bonds) the ground and neutral lugs will fix the issue.


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[xrated]

What I'm asking is this. The output from the inverter....is it downstream (load side) of the EMS. In a normal configuration, as in my Toy Hauler, shore power comes into the Transfer switch. Generator Power comes into the transfer switch, then on the load side (downstream of the transfer swich), the power goes out to the breaker panel Main breakers, which then get distributed via the panel buses to the individual breakers. So my question is ......where does the output from the inverter (the 120VAC) go?.....is it just separate circuits? My point is, that anything that is downstream (load side) of the EMS, should not affect the operation of the EMS, as it is monitoring and protecting the incoming voltage from the power pedestal........is this correct?

[Javi]

If the EMS is installed before the transfer switch it will only protect the input from the pedestal, if installed between the transfer switch and the fuse panel it will protect the whole system... However if after the transfer switch it will fault for an ungrounded gen set or inverter.

Javi

[bobbecky]

The inverter in the original question is on the DC circuit, where the 12 volts is converted to 120 volts, and feeds the Samsung fridge. This is totally isolated from the 120 volt incoming feed. The issue is strictly located between the pedestal and the camper, so could be in the pedestal, the cable connections at either end, or inside wiring from the trailer connection to the EMS. The EMS looks at the line side (incoming) power, not at load side (trailer side) of the EMS for problems.

[PARAPTOR]

What I'm asking is this. The output from the inverter....is it downstream (load side) of the EMS. In a normal configuration, as in my Toy Hauler, shore power comes into the Transfer switch. Generator Power comes into the transfer switch, then on the load side (downstream of the transfer switch), the power goes out to the breaker panel Main breakers, which then get distributed via the panel buses to the individual breakers. So my question is ......where does the output from the inverter (the 120VAC) go?.....is it just separate circuits? My point is, that anything that is downstream (load side) of the EMS, should not affect the operation of the EMS, as it is monitoring and protecting the incoming voltage from the power pedestal........is this correct?

Not sure where you are going with this inverter thing:confused: The Op's reference was to the fact he had a residential Frig, which requires 110 VAC to function, his rig like all other having a residential frig has an inverter to supply 110 VAC when not connected to shore power. So the inverter sole function is to provide 110V AC to the single curcuit to the frig when only power source available is the batteries.

Not sure if this is true for all but some inverters have an integral transfer switch which will power the frig circuit from shore power when available thereby saving the batteries.

[Outback 325BH]

Not sure where you are going with this inverter thing:confused: The Op's reference was to the fact he had a residential Frig, which requires 110 VAC to function, his rig like all other having a residential frig has an inverter to supply 110 VAC when not connected to shore power. So the inverter sole function is to provide 110V AC to the single curcuit to the frig when only power source available is the batteries.



Not sure if this is true for all but some inverters have an integral transfer switch which will power the frig circuit from shore power when available thereby saving the batteries.



I went back and reread. I missed the fact where the inverter was only for the fridge. I assumed the inverter was energizing the whole coach and was routed to the EMS.




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[Javi]

The inverter in the original question is on the DC circuit, where the 12 volts is converted to 120 volts, and feeds the Samsung fridge. This is totally isolated from the 120 volt incoming feed. The issue is strictly located between the pedestal and the camper, so could be in the pedestal, the cable connections at either end, or inside wiring from the trailer connection to the EMS. The EMS looks at the line side (incoming) power, not at load side (trailer side) of the EMS for problems.
That would be the question, is the inverter whole house or isolated to the fridge... I can't answer that one. The only time I've used an inverter in was whole house.

Javi

[xrated]

If the EMS is installed before the transfer switch it will only protect the input from the pedestal, if installed between the transfer switch and the fuse panel it will protect the whole system... However if after the transfer switch it will fault for an ungrounded gen set or inverter.

Javi

So what you are saying is in the scenario that you described, where the EMS is installed after the transfer swithch, the output from the Inverter actually goes through the transfer switch and into the line side of the EMS....is that correct?

[Javi]

So what you are saying is in the scenario that you described, where the EMS is installed after the transfer swithch, the output from the Inverter actually goes through the transfer switch and into the line side of the EMS....is that correct?
I believe that is correct.

Javi

[xrated]

The inverter in the original question is on the DC circuit, where the 12 volts is converted to 120 volts, and feeds the Samsung fridge. This is totally isolated from the 120 volt incoming feed. The issue is strictly located between the pedestal and the camper, so could be in the pedestal, the cable connections at either end, or inside wiring from the trailer connection to the EMS. The EMS looks at the line side (incoming) power, not at load side (trailer side) of the EMS for problems.

Thank you, that is exactly what I thought, and actually stated in an earlier post....the EMS is looking for issues with incoming power, and not anything downstream.

[xrated]

Not sure where you are going with this inverter thing:confused: The Op's reference was to the fact he had a residential Frig, which requires 110 VAC to function, his rig like all other having a residential frig has an inverter to supply 110 VAC when not connected to shore power. So the inverter sole function is to provide 110V AC to the single curcuit to the frig when only power source available is the batteries.

Not sure if this is true for all but some inverters have an integral transfer switch which will power the frig circuit from shore power when available thereby saving the batteries.

Where I was going with this is an Inverter that is downstream (load side) of an EMS, was not going to be the issue, as possibly suggested by the original poster. But, as I stated earlier, I don't have an Inverter in my rig, and absolutely zero experience with inverter hookups in trailers, etc. What I was trying to find out is how the inverter was hooked up so that I could dispel the inverter being the problem if it was in fact, hooked up downstream of the EMS. Hopefully that clears it up. I'm a Journeyman Electrician, but I have very limited experience with RV systems and I'm trying to learn what I can.

[Javi]

Where I was going with this is an Inverter that is downstream (load side) of an EMS, was not going to be the issue, as possibly suggested by the original poster. But, as I stated earlier, I don't have an Inverter in my rig, and absolutely zero experience with inverter hookups in trailers, etc. What I was trying to find out is how the inverter was hooked up so that I could dispel the inverter being the problem if it was in fact, hooked up downstream of the EMS. Hopefully that clears it up. I'm a Journeyman Electrician, but I have very limited experience with RV systems and I'm trying to learn what I can.

Here is what Progressive recommends for transfer switch equipment..

EMS-SURGE & VOLTAGE PROTECTION MODELS


Q: Should a Hardwired EMS be installed before or after the transfer switch?

A: A hardwired EMS should be installed prior to the transfer switch. The reason for this is most RV generators already have built-in voltage and frequency protection. If the EMS is installed after the transfer switch, this leaves the transfer switch vulnerable to power problems.

[PARAPTOR]

Okay guys you have got me confused:confused: old guy may not be hard to do :banghead:

Looks like we have at least three inverter related threads going here:

1. Small inverter supplying 110 VAC to the frig only ( we have had a few threads on this topic recently). I assume a search on inverter will pull them up. Some members have installed a separate inverter to supply a couple plugs ( no residential frig) Do not recall any threads/post installing an inverter for the whole rig (think would have to pull another trailer with batteries)

2. inverter generator whos output is connected directly to the shore power plug (no transfer switch) thereby feeding the power distribution panel

3. inverter generator that feeds a rig with the generator option, ie has a transfer switch installed.

Time to sit back and see what the single topic is ....... :popcorn: anyone willing to untangle this :hide:

[PARAPTOR]

Here is what Progressive recommends for transfer switch equipment..

EMS-SURGE & VOLTAGE PROTECTION MODELS


Q: Should a Hardwired EMS be installed before or after the transfer switch?

A: A hardwired EMS should be installed prior to the transfer switch. The reason for this is most RV generators already have built-in voltage and frequency protection. If the EMS is installed after the transfer switch, this leaves the transfer switch vulnerable to power problems.

Xrated and I have had a detailed discussion on this topic see past posts on EMS

Javi, not so simple, see my post(s) on EMS related to a board generator

[xrated]

Here is what Progressive recommends for transfer switch equipment..

EMS-SURGE & VOLTAGE PROTECTION MODELS


Q: Should a Hardwired EMS be installed before or after the transfer switch?

A: A hardwired EMS should be installed prior to the transfer switch. The reason for this is most RV generators already have built-in voltage and frequency protection. If the EMS is installed after the transfer switch, this leaves the transfer switch vulnerable to power problems.

I read that before I installed my EMS, but I still chose to install after the transfer switch. The reason being is that my entire Trailer electrical is protected (after the transfer switch), whether I'm running on shore power or generator power. That is my choice, since I've seen generator control circuits lose their minds and produce stupid voltages. Not often, but it does happen. To me, it's a cheaper solution to use the transfer switch as the sacrificial lamb, so to speak, that any of the much higher priced items in the trailer. BTW, Progressive does give instructions on how to wire in the EMS AFTER the transfer switch if you choose to protect the input from both the shore power AND the generator power.....that is what I did.

[xrated]

Okay guys you have got me confused:confused: old guy may not be hard to do :banghead:

Looks like we have at least three inverter related threads going here:

1. Small inverter supplying 110 VAC to the frig only ( we have had a few threads on this topic recently). I assume a search on inverter will pull them up. Some members have installed a separate inverter to supply a couple plugs ( no residential frig) Do not recall any threads/post installing an inverter for the whole rig (think would have to pull another trailer with batteries)

2. inverter generator whos output is connected directly to the shore power plug (no transfer switch) thereby feeding the power distribution panel

3. inverter generator that feeds a rig with the generator option, ie has a transfer switch installed.

Time to sit back and see what the single topic is ....... :popcorn: anyone willing to untangle this :hide:

The O.P. has an inverter that supplies power to the refrigerator only.....one circuit. So, his original problem cannot be the inverter, since the inverter received D.C. from the battery system and outputs it's AC to the Refrigerator receptacle.....thus the issue with the EMS, at least as I see it, is NOT inverter related. That's it in a nutshell.

[Javi]

Xrated and I have had a detailed discussion on this topic see past posts on EMS

Javi, not so simple, see my post(s) on EMS related to a board generator

The only whole house inverters I've seen were on large class A motor coaches... But a quick search of RV inverters show several charger/inverter

http://www.xantrex.com/industry-solutions/recreational-vehicles/inverter-chargers.aspx

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/tripp%20lite_rv1012ulhw.pdf


Different ways to install an inverter...

http://www.doityourselfrv.com/rv-inverter-install-diy/#

[Javi]

I read that before I installed my EMS, but I still chose to install after the transfer switch. The reason being is that my entire Trailer electrical is protected (after the transfer switch), whether I'm running on shore power or generator power. That is my choice, since I've seen generator control circuits lose their minds and produce stupid voltages. Not often, but it does happen. To me, it's a cheaper solution to use the transfer switch as the sacrificial lamb, so to speak, that any of the much higher priced items in the trailer. BTW, Progressive does give instructions on how to wire in the EMS AFTER the transfer switch if you choose to protect the input from both the shore power AND the generator power.....that is what I did.

Other than as a note it is totally moot to me unless I win the lotto and buy a Large diesel pusher... I have no need of a generator and outside of being an Onan generator warranty repairman in the early 80's I haven't fooled with them since...

And as another note... my original suggestion to turn the inverter off and recheck would have negated the next 4 pages of speculation... :D

[PARAPTOR]

I read that before I installed my EMS, but I still chose to install after the transfer switch. The reason being is that my entire Trailer electrical is protected (after the transfer switch), whether I'm running on shore power or generator power. That is my choice, since I've seen generator control circuits lose their minds and produce stupid voltages. Not often, but it does happen. To me, it's a cheaper solution to use the transfer switch as the sacrificial lamb, so to speak, that any of the much higher priced items in the trailer. BTW, Progressive does give instructions on how to wire in the EMS AFTER the transfer switch if you choose to protect the input from both the shore power AND the generator power.....that is what I did.

As I have discussed with you in our previous discussion (posts) on this same topic there is a clear solution which I installed (details in my past posts on this same EMS topic) a surge protected transfer switch made by Surge Guard. This gives the same protection from my own generator as well as shore power. To say you are protecting the rig with your method of connecting your EMS BUT leaving part of your rig (transfer switch) as a sacrificial lamb is not a solution in my eyes. just to add food for thought remember failure of electrical devices can lead to a fire and potential loss of the rig.

As I stated to you previously if not for this transfer switch the day that my own generator put out 140 volts (details in my previous post) I am sure I would have had some toasted stuff and a possible fire. Yes as Javi stated if the generator has protection circuits and are functional everything should be fine:banghead: I guess we can say the same for camp site pedestals

[rcmike]

I would call progressive customer service when you can. I bet they can answer all the questions about what codes you had come up and why .

[xrated]

The bottom line in all of this is to point the O.P., hopefully in the right direction to try and figure out why his EMS took him off line and reported an E2...an open ground. That is why I was trying to figure out how the inverter was wired in and how there could be any possibility of it causing the E2 fault generated by the EMS, which he ended up doing the bypass.

[xrated]

I'm signing off for the night....3:30AM get up time for work.....and I'm old! :D

[PARAPTOR]

Other than as a note it is totally moot to me unless I win the lotto and buy a Large diesel pusher... I have no need of a generator and outside of being an Onan generator warranty repairman in the early 80's I haven't fooled with them since...

And as another note... my original suggestion to turn the inverter off and recheck would have negated the next 4 pages of speculation... :D

OKAY I am out of popcorn,:banghead:

See you where associated with Onan, just to add a touch humor to this, when I called ONAN about the 140 VAC coming out of the Onan 5500 answer was it should not do that :banghead:, bring it in to nearest authorized repair center. OKAY Thanks. Never happened again so never took it in. But knowing that even if it did happen again my transfer switch will not connect my Raptor to the ONAN. Nice feeling !!! Could have had a toasted Raptor at the Onnan shop:facepalm:

Okay back to the popcorn thread for a refill

[SolarMan]

Hi,
I have a question that I hope some of you people can help me with. I have been full time RVing for over 15 years. Recently my wife and I have taken up residency in a RV campground. Because of my experience I have quickly become the "Mr. Fix-It" for the campground.
Yesterday I ran into an issue I have not seen before. My client has a Progressive Industries EMS-HW50C system in their RV. The problem is that there is a loud clicking noise coming from the EMS-HW50C. The system has a wired display panel.
There is No display on the panel. When I unplug (phone cord) from the EMS-HW50C from the display the noise stops but, the RV looses about half of the AC power to that RV.
Please help.
Thank you.
Ralph Hillman (Solar Man):bow:

[bobbecky]

Inside the EMS device, there is a magnetic contactor that closes when the computer circuit, also inside the EMS, sees all the voltage and circuit rules are met. If there is a loose wire in the incoming circuit, or a fault inside the EMS, this sounds like the contactor is closing and then opening again and again. The holding coils in contactors can fail, which could cause this also.

[SolarMan]

Thank you very much Bob for the advice. I will check it out and see if that is the issue.

[xrated]

Inside the EMS device, there is a magnetic contactor that closes when the computer circuit, also inside the EMS, sees all the voltage and circuit rules are met. If there is a loose wire in the incoming circuit, or a fault inside the EMS, this sounds like the contactor is closing and then opening again and again. The holding coils in contactors can fail, which could cause this also.

I agree with most of what you said, but the holding coils, when they fail, will usually not close the contactor. It's not a matter of closing, then opening, then closing, then opening. Normally for them to drop out, there is a fault somewhere with the incoming power, or something has happened to the control board that allows the contactor to energize.

[Javi]

I'd check the switch on the remote for the bypass

Javi

[Javi]

Here is the manual... https://www.rvsafety.net/Manuals/HW50C.pdf

If you unplug or plug the remote in while there is power to the unit it will blow it's mind...