Tow setup questions - ProPride hitch, D-rated tires, tongue weight, tire pressure.

[KenJF]

The wife absolutely loves the "little house on wheels" we bought used during the pandemic and our setup has taken us 12k miles since then without a problem but we've never really thought through the whole towing set up so we're looking for advice as to how to do it properly. *

Trailer: 2014 Keystone 22' Bullet Premier 22RBPR
*- Dry Weight 4,638 lbs.
*- Payload Capacity 1,862 lbs.
*- GVWR 6,500 lbs. *
*- Hitch Weight 500 lbs.
*- Tongue weight as loaded - unknown
*- Run with all tanks empty
*- Run with tires at max PSI of 65lb
*- Drive 55-65 mph

Tow Vehicle: 2015 - Lincoln Navigator 4WD with tow package
*- Base Curb Weight: 6,069
*- Maximum Payload: 1,470
*- Maximum Towing Capacity: 8,600
*- BlueOx Sway-Pro WDH

Set up the Blue Ox so that the trailer runs level but I've always been concerned about the sag of the rear end of the Navigator when hooked up. *And, of course, getting blown around by passing 18-wheelers.

The first idea was airbags but the 2015 Navigator has a computer-controlled auto-leveling suspension that my trailer shop says won't accommodate airbags. *

The second idea is to replace the SUV with an F150 but we love the Navigator when not towing so would use the F150 just to tow... a pricey option.

At a dump station, a Ford Expedition towing a 29' trailer without much sag pulled in behind us. Aside from trim the Expedition and Navigator are almost identical so I was surprised at the length of the trailer he was towing with an SUV. The owner told us that he had researched heavily and recommended trying his setup which would cost me a lot less than buying an F150. *He had:

1. ProPride 3P Hensley hitch ($3,500)

2. D-rated light truck tires


We're all ears on these 4 questions:

1. To determine tongue weight is it recommended to buy a physical tongue weigh scale or the Curt Better Weigh app? *(tried the bathroom scale method but didn't trust the result of 800+ lbs) And, would should the max tongue weight be?

2. Trailer shop said he has no experience with the ProPride 3P because at that price point no customer ever asked for one. *Any input is appreciated as it's a big purchase.

3. Is it correct to run the trailer tires at max cold psi? *I read elsewhere on the forum about how people change the pressure in their tow vehicle tires depending on weight. We have a trip this weekend and will stop at a CAT Truck weigh station to get the loaded trailer and loaded truck weights.

4. The current passenger vehicle tires (Uniroyal 275/55R20 113h All-season) on the Navigator are at the end of their life so will be replacing them anyway. Do we need D-rated if we are doing 6,000 miles a year towing and if so any recommendations on a D-rated light truck tire?* **

As always, much respect and appreciation for the experience and expertise of the group and looking forward to learning a lot about this topic.

 

[Travelin' Texans]

Upgrade tow vehicle tires to LT tires.
The dry weight of your rv, any rv, means nothing to you or anyone else except the guy delivering it to the dealer.
Also the max trailer tow rating of your Navigator is meaningless, you'll exceed the payload & rear axle ratings long before towing a rv that heavy.
Figure 13% of the 6500lb GVWR as an average tongue weight, in your case 800+lbs, subtracted from that posted 1470lb payload of the Navigator + the 100+/- lb weight of the WDH + everyone/everything in the Navigator, if it's a + number you're good, if - you're overloaded. You're already at 900+ lbs without anyone/anything in the Navigator. Yes your Navigator can "tow/pull" it just fine, but until you've crunched all the numbers or weighed it ready to camp can you safely "carry" the weight within the limits of all the numbers.
Personally I ran my rv tires at the sidewall max cold pressures with never a tire issue, but others will disagree & that discussion will never end.
A F150 may or may not have much more payload than you're Navigator. If trading vehicles to use as a tow vehicle get SRW (single rear wheel) 1 ton, very little more money, same size, same option packages as a 1/2 or 3/4 ton & much more payload, you'll then be ready for your next rv upgrade.

 

[Notanlines]

What ^^^^Danny said. And I also will argue to no end about running RV tires maximum pressure. If you don't run max pressure then you don't have the rating.

This post was edited to include the 'RV' in the post.

 

[wiredgeorge]

What ^^^^Danny said. And I also will argue to no end about running tires maximum pressure. If you don't run max pressure then you don't have the rating.

I hope the tire pressure debate will not be rekindled. I run max PSI in my camper tires but only run max PSI in my truck tires when towing. Let a little out (max PSI = 80 PSI) so I go about 70 PSI when not towing.

 

[sourdough]

Some thoughts - my comments are assuming you are a couple and not a large family;

Depending on what you put in the Navigator you will probably be alright if you don't overload the trailer as it isn't that large. A Navigator isn't built as a "tow vehicle" and does not come with the nice enhancements that can make towing "easier" so you have to make some changes; all tires should be LT tires and not anything P rated. Inflate to max tire pressure (tow vehicle) when towing to minimize the squishing/swaying of the sidewalls.

I do not know what Blue Ox hitch you have but you need to have a GOOD one if using an SUV to tow. I would use an Equalizer 4 point with confidence personally....IF the tow vehicle was set up properly. You can look into HD shocks and/or an aftermarket HD rear equalizer....none of which are very expensive - shocks first.

The ProPride is good....but offensively expensive IMO. They are made, again IMO, to give maximum control paying maximum dollars to mask the shortcomings in the tow vehicle. Others will disagree but they are most beneficial when stretching the limits of the tow vehicle and not required IF the tow vehicle is equipped properly.

Trade the Navigator for an F150 to tow your trailer? Never happen in my world. I'd buy an HD truck or just equip the Navigator to tow that trailer remembering that your trailer is ALL that Navigator can handle in the future. Thinking of something bigger down the road? Get a 350/3500. We drive an SUV and my truck. In the event we had to have one vehicle it would be a truck....that said, when I kick the bucket the truck will be kicked to the curb by DW and she WILL have an SUV! Just some thoughts to kick around.

 

[markcee]

To add my .02....I am curious as to the 'maximum payload is 1470' figure you mention for the Navi. The way it's worded almost sounds like a website weight reference.

Is 1470 what the sticker on your Navi indicates? Take a look at the yellow/white/black sticker on the driver's side door pillar to verify. Each vehicle has a unique cargo carrying capacity (payload) based on it's GVWR minus its curb weight (as it left the factory).

I had the original iteration of the Curt Better Weigh - it's still the same thing, just rebranded. While fun to play with, I would not put much stock in it's accuracy for tongue weight. If you're not comfortable trusting the bathroom scale method, get an actual tongue weight scale or go do the
3-weigh method at the local CAT scale to determine your real world weights:

Weight 1. Truck only - fully loaded for camping. Hitch in place/bars in truck
Weight 2. Truck and trailer - fully loaded for camping with WDH connected
Weight 3. Truck and trailer - fully loaded with WDH bars disconnected and placed in truck.

First weigh is like $12, additional weighs are about $3 each.

 

[jadatis]

I would not change TV tires to LT, not needed for loadcapacity, and ride without TT is better.

For TT I would like to know the specifications read from sidewall
1. Maximum load or loadindex.
2.. Kind of tire, so loadrange to determine if 65 is realy the reference-pressure, and if ST, and sises.

Then from TT GVWR and GAWR, s, and howmany axles.

If you can give that, I can calculate needed pressure for that.
But better would be weighed axleloads with WDH in use, because gives more weight on the TT and front TV tires. Better even axle-end loads.

Then the swaying when someone passes.
Best is if both vehicles keep as much possible sideward distance when passing/passed.
Mayby you can make a sticker for that, but difficult to write it in a short enaugh sentence.

If you also give GAWR's of TV, we can better yudge if tires have enaugh reserve.
Tirespecifications you gave already.

 

[sourdough]

I would not change TV tires to LT, not needed for loadcapacity, and ride without TT is better.

For TT I would like to know the specifications read from sidewall
1. Maximum load or loadindex.
2.. Kind of tire, so loadrange to determine if 65 is realy the reference-pressure, and if ST, and sises.

Then from TT GVWR and GAWR, s, and howmany axles.

If you can give that, I can calculate needed pressure for that.
But better would be weighed axleloads with WDH in use, because gives more weight on the TT and front TV tires. Better even axle-end loads.

Then the swaying when someone passes.
Best is if both vehicles keep as much possible sideward distance when passing/passed.
Mayby you can make a sticker for that, but difficult to write it in a short enaugh sentence.

If you also give GAWR's of TV, we can better yudge if tires have enaugh reserve.
Tirespecifications you gave already.

It would be a mistake not to upgrade to LT tires. Don't know if you know what a Navigator is but I have about 3 of them on my block; great big boxes with cushy suspensions AND P rated tires to give that "soft" ride - exactly what you don't want when pulling a trailer. All of those factors exacerbate sway - same goes for airing down the tires on the trailer from the max psi listed on the side of the st trailer tires.

OP was concerned about sway and the effects of passing vehicles etc. "Keeping as much possible sideward distance" is not an option in many cases - when a passing semi's mirrors are about an inch from yours and your right tires are on the white stripe you don't have anywhere to go.

Back to the tires; the construction differences between an LT tire and P rated passenger tire are significant....particularly the sidewall. The added strength of the LT sidewall, inflated to maximum vs a P tire is readily apparent. All one has to do is take an unmounted, uninflated LT tire and P tire of the same size, place them side by side and push down on them...or sit on them. The difference is readily apparent AND that difference shows up in towing stability.

 

[KenJF]

Thank you ALL... I'll take some time to read fully and digest tonight and respond to each.

 

[Ksz426]

A possible alternative to the LT ties are an XL rated P series. We changed our Suburban to the XL tires and feel it was a great compromise in our situation. Max pressure is 50lbs and ride is quite a bit better than LT tires(we tried the LT).
We bought a tongue weight scale on Amazon. Loaded we are at 815lbs. Add 100lbs for the hitch, 500lbs for us and two Huskies and we are well below our 1716 payload max on the door sticker.
We’re using a 2 point Equalizer wdh with 1000lbs bars.
Again, this is our situation and seems to work well for us.

Thanks.

 

[Travelin' Texans]

A possible alternative to the LT ties are an XL rated P series. We changed our Suburban to the XL tires and feel it was a great compromise in our situation. Max pressure is 50lbs and ride is quite a bit better than LT tires(we tried the LT).
We bought a tongue weight scale on Amazon. Loaded we are at 815lbs. Add 100lbs for the hitch, 500lbs for us and two Huskies and we are well below our 1716 payload max on the door sticker.
We’re using a 2 point Equalizer wdh with 1000lbs bars.
Again, this is our situation and seems to work well for us.

Thanks.

Not sure what an XL P rated tire is or how it compares to a LT?
You're also towing with a Suburban which is a people mover on a truck platform, a tiny bit better payload for a tow vehicle than some of the other grocery getters.
Whereas the Navigator is basically a giant luxury car designed to move people comfortably rather tow anything.
If you want to deflate tires do so on the LT tires on the tow vehicle to help the ride when not towing, but do not deflate rv ST tires, regardless of weight or risk overheating causing blowouts, unusual tread wear & sway issues.
Ask most anyone on here that's been rving a lot of years & I believe they'd agree that if your not at the GVWR of your rv now you will be after a few camping trips, so inflate the tires to cold max & not worry about if you've added some weight & need 2-3 more psi in the tires.

 

[Ksz426]

For our tire size, 275-55-20, most passenger tires have a load range of SL and a load index of 113. These tires can support up to 2535lbs at 44psi max pressure. Some manufactures, Cooper for example, offer this tire size in an XL load range with a load index of 117. These tires can support up to 2833lbs at 50psi max pressure. When we changed our Suburban tires to the XL filled at 50lbs, all tire squat was gone and the ride was more stable than with the original SL tires. Yes, the LT tires at full or near full pressure were more stable, but they were too stiff, even at reduced pressure, for non-towing for our liking.
I just offered this as a potential option to LT tires.

Thanks.

 

[sourdough]

For our tire size, 275-55-20, most passenger tires have a load range of SL and a load index of 113. These tires can support up to 2535lbs at 44psi max pressure. Some manufactures, Cooper for example, offer this tire size in an XL load range with a load index of 117. These tires can support up to 2833lbs at 50psi max pressure. When we changed our Suburban tires to the XL filled at 50lbs, all tire squat was gone and the ride was more stable than with the original SL tires. Yes, the LT tires at full or near full pressure were more stable, but they were too stiff, even at reduced pressure, for non-towing for our liking.
I just offered this as a potential option to LT tires.

Thanks.

The highlighted above illustrates one of the many tradeoffs one makes when trying to make a passenger vehicle into a towing vehicle. The stiffer tire is not only optimal for better towing on any vehicle, on a passenger vehicle moving to them is virtually a requirement for the best towing and more importantly...safety. To have a good tow vehicle one has to trade off some creature "comforts" such as a soft ride since a heavy duty suspension is what enables the vehicle to safely carry the load. One can compromise from the optimal towing setup for a soft ride but that compromise also comes with the loss of some safety, a lot when the existing soft suspension of the SUV is taken into account - which must be kept in mind. On my truck I just air down to 65psi from 80 and call it a day....bumps and all.

 

[Ksz426]

I agree 100% with what sourdough said. I don’t want to mislead anyone into something not applicable to them. In our situation, we decided that the xl tires were sufficient for our truck & trailer combo as well as the type of camping we do at this time. We are newbie weekenders, camping once or twice a month, trying to get a “feel” for if we want to do more of this as we reach retirement in a few years. If/when we decide to do more camping, a larger trailer AND truck will replace our current equipment.
Thanks.

 

[jadatis]

For our tire size, 275-55-20, most passenger tires have a load range of SL and a load index of 113. These tires can support up to 2535lbs at 44psi max pressure. Some manufactures, Cooper for example, offer this tire size in an XL load range with a load index of 117. These tires can support up to 2833lbs at 50psi max pressure. When we changed our Suburban tires to the XL filled at 50lbs, all tire squat was gone and the ride was more stable than with the original SL tires. Yes, the LT tires at full or near full pressure were more stable, but they were too stiff, even at reduced pressure, for non-towing for our liking.
I just offered this as a potential option to LT tires.

Thanks.

A little correction.

Standard load P-tire can carry their maximum load upto 99mph AT 35 psi, but more often nowadays 36 psi. Maximum allowed cold pressure given only on sidewall between 44psi and 51 psi. Difference is used to highen up the 35 or 36 psi referencepressure for higher speed and camber angle above 2.

XL, but reinforced and extraload are the same, are allowed to carry maxload upto 99mph, AT 41 or 42 psi. Maxcold also between 44 and 51 psi given and an ocacional 60psi ( Toyo fi).

LT and EUR equivalent C(omercial) - tyre, give reference-pressure on sidewall, and most think this is the maximum allowed cold pressure.

Continental groop tires, give on C-tyres often and the reference-pressure, and a 10 psi higher " maximum inflation pressure" wich is also maxcold.
Topicstartes Uniroyal is a brand in the Continental groop.
But they dont give it on personscar-tires.

This all indicates that the maxcold is not that important for the tiremakers.

Xl with maxcold, and they exist, 44psi, would leave only 2 psi for highening up for speed, and alighnment camberangle. Unrealistic. H speedrate already needs 0.3 BAR is 5 PSI highening up the 42 psi for 210kmph/ 130mph maximum speed used.

 

[Travelin' Texans]

A little correction.

Standard load P-tire can carry their maximum load upto 99mph AT 35 psi, but more often nowadays 36 psi. Maximum allowed cold pressure given only on sidewall between 44psi and 51 psi. Difference is used to highen up the 35 or 36 psi referencepressure for higher speed and camber angle above 2.

XL, but reinforced and extraload are the same, are allowed to carry maxload upto 99mph, AT 41 or 42 psi. Maxcold also between 44 and 51 psi given and an ocacional 60psi ( Toyo fi).

LT and EUR equivalent C(omercial) - tyre, give reference-pressure on sidewall, and most think this is the maximum allowed cold pressure.

Continental groop tires, give on C-tyres often and the reference-pressure, and a 10 psi higher " maximum inflation pressure" wich is also maxcold.
Topicstartes Uniroyal is a brand in the Continental groop.
But they dont give it on personscar-tires.

This all indicates that the maxcold is not that important for the tiremakers.

Xl with maxcold, and they exist, 44psi, would leave only 2 psi for highening up for speed, and alighnment camberangle. Unrealistic. H speedrate already needs 0.3 BAR is 5 PSI highening up the 42 psi for 210kmph/ 130mph maximum speed used.

There you go!
That should clear it up!
NOT!!!

 

[Fasttimes]

KenJ, we're in a similar tow vehicle (2010 Expidition, HD tow) and I pull a larger and heavier trailer. I have been through the same things as you when I first got the trailer. Do I need to upgrade? Upgrade tires? Different hitch? Ect.



Let me give you my advice. It took a good year of tweaking my WDH to get it just right. Then I added some upgrades to the truck to help it tow better. Beefier sway bars, spring inserts, and new tires( it was time to replace anyways).



I'm going to post a link to the Expedition forum where I went into details to exactly what I did.


But I will say this:

• Your truck is plenty powerful to pull your size trailer unless grossly exceeding payload. (payload is our vehicles Achilles heel). Just watch your payload and don't go over too much if you can help it.
• LT tires are overkill in my opinion. Better for towing, sure, but at the expense of a much harsher ride and more $. I ride with Michellin LTX tires that came standard on the Expy when new. My truck is a daily driver and I don't want LT tires knocking out my fillings on a daily basis.
• Max cold air pressure, minus a couple for towing on the truck the day of towing. Then back to normal recommended psi when trip is over.
• The ProPride is serious overkill and serious $$. Most likely the Blue Ox will do fine (I have the Equalizer 4-point). It probably just needs more tweaking. Probably not shifting enough weight back to the truck is my guess about the tossing around.
• Learn to use and love a CAT scale. That is the single handed one thing that really let me finally dial in my WDH and tongue weight.
• The upgrades to the suspension just really got that last 10% of ideal settings and helped with the truck passing sway and last bit of sag.

https://www.expeditionforum.com/thr...s-after-a-3-week-road-trip.48416/#post-445265

 

[Travelin' Texans]

KenJ, we're in a similar tow vehicle (2010 Expidition, HD tow) and I pull a larger and heavier trailer. I have been through the same things as you when I first got the trailer. Do I need to upgrade? Upgrade tires? Different hitch? Ect.



Let me give you my advice. It took a good year of tweaking my WDH to get it just right. Then I added some upgrades to the truck to help it tow better. Beefier sway bars, spring inserts, and new tires( it was time to replace anyways).



I'm going to post a link to the Expedition forum where I went into details to exactly what I did.


But I will say this:

• Your truck is plenty powerful to pull your size trailer unless grossly exceeding payload. (payload is our vehicles Achilles heel). Just watch your payload and don't go over too much if you can help it.
• LT tires are overkill in my opinion. Better for towing, sure, but at the expense of a much harsher ride and more $. I ride with Michellin LTX tires that came standard on the Expy when new. My truck is a daily driver and I don't want LT tires knocking out my fillings on a daily basis.
• Max cold air pressure, minus a couple for towing on the truck the day of towing. Then back to normal recommended psi when trip is over.
• The ProPride is serious overkill and serious $$. Most likely the Blue Ox will do fine (I have the Equalizer 4-point). It probably just needs more tweaking. Probably not shifting enough weight back to the truck is my guess about the tossing around.
• Learn to use and love a CAT scale. That is the single handed one thing that really let me finally dial in my WDH and tongue weight.
• The upgrades to the suspension just really got that last 10% of ideal settings and helped with the truck passing sway and last bit of sag.

https://www.expeditionforum.com/thr...s-after-a-3-week-road-trip.48416/#post-445265

Just curious? Is the Michelin LTX not a LT tire?
I'd guess LT whether it has an X in the name or not is a LT tire. The very same Michelin LTX on my dually were LTs.
Also the weight of any/all add-ons in an attempt to improve towability will come directly off the already limited payload.
Yes! Either of those vehicles have more than adequate power to "pull/tow" those rvs, the issue is their ability to safely "carry" the weight of those rvs within the limits of the tow vehicles.
I understand trading vehicles nowadays is very costly & in some cases very hard to find so you have run what you brung!! Just be aware of the limitations of the just barely enough tow vehicles for the safety of you & yours along with the rest of us on the highways with you.

 

[GaryUT]

Definitely upgrade the tires on the Navigator to LT, I would go with a load range D tire.

Since you say the rear of the Navigator is sagging with the trailer hooked up the hitch is not adjusted properly. With a properly adjusted weight distributing hitch the rear of the tow vehicle should not be sagging. It sounds like the hitch needs to be lowered and the spring bars need more tension. Below is a link to the PDF file from Blue Ox that enplanes how to set it up.

https://www.blueoxtowbars.com/media/installation_instruction/BXWstd_ls.pdf

Gary

 

[Fasttimes]

Well not really an LT tire, more of a hybrid. Max air is only 44psi. It’s developed for SUVs. LT is in the name, but not as hash as a true LT tire.