NEW 2023 Cougar 24rds 5th Wheel - Lithium Batt Question

[neeginan]

Hi all. We picked up our NEW 2023 24rds 1/2 Ton Towable (just in name - we have a 3/4 ton truck) 24RDS. Got a great deal at the end of Dec given that dealers don't want a NEW 2023 RV on their lot in 2025.

Anyway, the 2023s had the 400i Solar Flex package and this one came with 2 x 100ah Lithium batteries.

The concern I have is that the settings on the Smart Shunt and the Smart Solar Charger were not set up from the factory for the DragonFly Lithium batteries. I can't remember exactly how they were set now that I went and set them as per the SolarFlex DragonFly Quick Start Guide. However they had them set, they were showing 100% full charge even though the battery voltage was 12.91 V. 12.91V for LiFeO4 batteries is only ~30 state of charge.

Am I screwed with these batteries now that they have been operating with these wrong settings for a year and a half? Should I go to the dealer and have them tested and perhaps replaced under warranty? Or now that I have the settings corrected, should I run with them a bit to see if they operate someone normally?

 

[NH_Bulldog]

Mine came with the 220w system, but I have since upgraded it myself to a 440i system. I followed the instructions from the LiFePO4 battery manufacturer to adjust the settings on the Smart Shunt and the Victron Solar Charge Controller. Yours was probably set for lead acid batteries by default by Keystone at the factory and the dealer never updated it. 12.91v DC on a LiFePO4 battery is about a 40% SOC, which although seems low (these can go to 0% SOC without harm) it should not have an adverse effect on battery performance or life once you get it ironed out. I have my "floor" set to 5% SOC.

Depending on the exact date your camper was manufactured, it may or may not have come from the factory with the batteries installed. If they were installed at the factory, everything should/would have been set up to be compatible with LiFePO4. Otherwise, the dealer would install the batteries provided by Keystone after delivery on units with the DFE (Dragon Fly Energy) batteries. When that happens, most dealers have no idea how to set up the various systems to play nice with the LiFePO4 batteries.

What you really have to investigate is your WFCO Converter behind/under the power center (main fuse/breaker panel inside the RV). Mine came with a WFCO WF-9855-AD converter. The "AD" on mine stands for Auto-Detect, which means that the converter will try to determine what type of battery you have based on how the battery receives a charge, and then will automatically adjust to a charging profile that "allegedly" corresponds to the type of battery you have.

Before I get too deep in the weeds on that subject, please locate your converter and let us know what brand and model it is and also look for a Firmware version that should be on a white sticker on the converter case.

In my case, I had an issue with the converter auto-detecting and bringing the batteries to 100% even though my Solar Charge controller was set up correctly. Keystone blamed WFCO, WFCO blamed Keystone and the dealer was clueless about any of it. I did check with Battle Born (maker of the Dragon Fly batteries) and they said that the batteries would be fine. I have since been working with WFCO directly to address my issue and my modified (under warranty) converter should be delivered back this afternoon.

 

[neeginan]

Thanks NH Bulldog. I will get the info re the WFCO converter.

I got the state of charge info from this Dragonfly data sheet located here.

http://images.ext.keystonerv.com/se...Electrical/Battery/DFTHO10012H Info Sheet.pdf

I think that is one(s) I have.

Cameron

 

[NH_Bulldog]

Have you looked yourself to see what batteries are actually installed in the box?

 

[neeginan]

Have you looked yourself to see what batteries are actually installed in the box?

Yes, they are Dragonfly 100ah batteries. There are 2 of them. I didn't take a picture of the markings to get a model number. But they have those connection tabs as well. That's why I say I think they are the ones I have.

 

[NH_Bulldog]

This is the info you need (from BattleBorn/Dragonfly Energy):

How to Properly Charge the Batteries
To properly charge your Dragonfly Energy Battery, you will want to verify that any charging component in your system is capable of being programmed for the following specifications. Charging components can include, but are not limited to converters, inverter chargers, solar charge controllers, DC to DC chargers, etc.

• Bulk/Absorption: 14.2V – 14.6V
• Absorption Time: Two batteries in parallel connections require 30 minutes 200Ah
• Float: 13.4V – 13.8V
• Equalization: 14.4V/ Disabled
• Temperature Compensation: 0/Disabled
• Charge Rate: 50% of the battery or battery bank capacity
• Battery Charge Temperature Range: 32°F (0°C) to 131°F (55°C)
• Battery Discharge Temperature Range: -4°F (-20°C) to 140°F (60°C)
• Cell Charge Temperature: 32°F (0°C) to 131°F (55°C)
• Cell Discharge Temperature: -4°F (-20°C) to 140°F (60°C)

 

[snoobler]

Hi all. We picked up our NEW 2023 24rds 1/2 Ton Towable (just in name - we have a 3/4 ton truck) 24RDS. Got a great deal at the end of Dec given that dealers don't want a NEW 2023 RV on their lot in 2025.

Anyway, the 2023s had the 400i Solar Flex package and this one came with 2 x 100ah Lithium batteries.

The concern I have is that the settings on the Smart Shunt and the Smart Solar Charger were not set up from the factory for the DragonFly Lithium batteries. I can't remember exactly how they were set now that I went and set them as per the SolarFlex DragonFly Quick Start Guide. However they had them set, they were showing 100% full charge even though the battery voltage was 12.91 V. 12.91V for LiFeO4 batteries is only ~30 state of charge.

Am I screwed with these batteries now that they have been operating with these wrong settings for a year and a half? Should I go to the dealer and have them tested and perhaps replaced under warranty? Or now that I have the settings corrected, should I run with them a bit to see if they operate someone normally?

It is very common for some LFP batteries to show a lower voltage when the BMS is either in standby mode, or is under charge protection.

If you place a ~10A load on them, does the voltage increase?

It sounds like you're using Victron hardware. The default Victron MPPT settings for Lithium work great.

The smartshunt has no affect on charging. Improper settings mean the SoC will likely be off with false sync to 100% when it's actually at a lower state of charge.

Default Victron MPPT for lithium is 14.2V absorption.

Set smartshunt to the defaults except:

Charged voltage: 14.0V
tail current: 5%
Peukert: 1.05
Efficiency: 99%

The two should be configured in a VE.Smart network for best performance.

 

[neeginan]

Mine came with the 220w system, but I have since upgraded it myself to a 440i system. I followed the instructions from the LiFePO4 battery manufacturer to adjust the settings on the Smart Shunt and the Victron Solar Charge Controller. Yours was probably set for lead acid batteries by default by Keystone at the factory and the dealer never updated it. 12.91v DC on a LiFePO4 battery is about a 40% SOC, which although seems low (these can go to 0% SOC without harm) it should not have an adverse effect on battery performance or life once you get it ironed out. I have my "floor" set to 5% SOC.

Depending on the exact date your camper was manufactured, it may or may not have come from the factory with the batteries installed. If they were installed at the factory, everything should/would have been set up to be compatible with LiFePO4. Otherwise, the dealer would install the batteries provided by Keystone after delivery on units with the DFE (Dragon Fly Energy) batteries. When that happens, most dealers have no idea how to set up the various systems to play nice with the LiFePO4 batteries.

What you really have to investigate is your WFCO Converter behind/under the power center (main fuse/breaker panel inside the RV). Mine came with a WFCO WF-9855-AD converter. The "AD" on mine stands for Auto-Detect, which means that the converter will try to determine what type of battery you have based on how the battery receives a charge, and then will automatically adjust to a charging profile that "allegedly" corresponds to the type of battery you have.

Before I get too deep in the weeds on that subject, please locate your converter and let us know what brand and model it is and also look for a Firmware version that should be on a white sticker on the converter case.

In my case, I had an issue with the converter auto-detecting and bringing the batteries to 100% even though my Solar Charge controller was set up correctly. Keystone blamed WFCO, WFCO blamed Keystone and the dealer was clueless about any of it. I did check with Battle Born (maker of the Dragon Fly batteries) and they said that the batteries would be fine. I have since been working with WFCO directly to address my issue and my modified (under warranty) converter should be delivered back this afternoon.

So I have the WFCO WF8930/50. It does not have the AD for auto detect in the model number. However, in a manual that I found online, it states that it has the auto detect feature for Lithium. I understand that from your experience, it wouldn't work anyway. I could not find a sticker with the firmware release. Is that on the side - do I have to remove the inverter to get that?

 

[emugel]

My 2022 24RDS also came with the WFCO-AD converter. When I replaced the cheap dealer installed battery with a LiFePO4, the converter did not auto detect anything.

There is are 2 (that I know of) Facebook pages specific to the 24RDS. Many questions/complaints about the WFCO converter. Every poster has found the converter in the same location - - behind the power center (breaker box) under the stove. It is a deck mounted, stand-alone converter (not part of the power center). It is very difficult to reach. I swapped out my converter to one dedicated to LiFePO and ended up removing the stove for workable access.(I also relocated the converter much closer to the sink area so it is now easier access if needed - - not easy but easier)

As for the battery - - - as NH_Bulldog says, your voltage indicates around 40% charge. Won't hurt anything. In fact, many sources say that a charge level between 40% - 60% is optimum for storage. Don't fret it.

 

[NH_Bulldog]

So I have the WFCO WF8930/50. It does not have the AD for auto detect in the model number. However, in a manual that I found online, it states that it has the auto detect feature for Lithium. I understand that from your experience, it wouldn't work anyway. I could not find a sticker with the firmware release. Is that on the side - do I have to remove the inverter to get that?

That is your distribution panel. It does not have an integrated converter. You will have a standalone deck mount converter that plugs into an outlet on the rear of the distribution panel. Fortunately for me, the backside of my distribution panel is accessible under my dinette bench seat.

Anyway, my converter was working as designed, just that Keystone’s SolarFlex messes with the WFCO’s ability to reliably auto detect. I can explain that in detail if you want, but working with WFCO I sent them my converter, they updated the firmware and installed a jumper to force it to lithium-only charging and then they sent it back to me.

 

[neeginan]

Appreciate the info. Thanks. Not happy about the need to tear into a brand new RV to get to the converter to fix something that shouldn't be 'broken' from day 1. I get that it is not actually broken per design, but it is broken in that it does not function for the intended use in this case.

 

[neeginan]

Thank you. I will think about that. I may need to do what you did - take it out, send it in, reinstall once they have modified for Lithium only.

Appreciate the guidance and info.

 

[NH_Bulldog]

100% agree. I was not and am not happy, but the fix is relatively simple, especially since my camper is just sitting here for the winter, so I can “afford” the downtime.

Again though, before you get too upset, take a look at your converter and look up the model number of what you have. The WH-9855-AD that I have was first introduced at the start of 2023, so depending on your actual build date, you could have the prior version of the converter WF-9855-LiS which is not auto detect and has a switch/jumper you can flip yourself to select charging instead. By default, that model is setup for lead acid.

 

[ObiRich]

If you have the 9855 AD converter, what color is the light on it. Green would indicate lead acid, and blue would indicate LiFePo. If it's green, you'll need to discharge your battery down to about 20%, disconnect one of the batteries, and then turn on the converter. After about 20 minutes or so, the green led should change to blue. If your LiFePo batteries have never been discharged that low, then it won't detect them. When I converted over, it took 2 tries to get it.

 

[snoobler]

If you have the 9855 AD converter, what color is the light on it. Green would indicate lead acid, and blue would indicate LiFePo. If it's green, you'll need to discharge your battery down to about 20%, disconnect one of the batteries, and then turn on the converter. After about 20 minutes or so, the green led should change to blue. If your LiFePo batteries have never been discharged that low, then it won't detect them. When I converted over, it took 2 tries to get it.

Thanks for this post. I've always suspected it, but this confirms the detection method.

Lead acid charged at 0.1-0.2C hits absorption (14.4V-ish) at about 80% charge, then it requires a relatively long absorption period (4 hours-ish) holding voltage and tapering current.

LFP follows the same bulk/absorption/float method, but it looks notably different. The vast majority of the charge is taken on between 13.2 and 13.8V at 0.5C. Once absorption is hit, the battery is nearly full and rarely requires more than 30 minutes of absorption. If charged at something lower, like 0.1-0.2C like lead acid, the absorption duration is typically less than 5 minutes.

This difference in absorption durations is what the converter can use to auto-select the battery type.

LFP are problematic with standard converters because their near empty voltage (12.8V - 20%) is above most FLA resting voltage, and it doesn't trigger a re-bulk in some converters, i.e., the converter won't get out of float mode (often 13.2V), so the LFP is kept at a lower SoC unless a big load pulls the battery down to trigger re-bulk. WFCO inverters seem to be notorious for this issue even with lightly loaded AGM.

Most trailer installations have excessive voltage drop between converter and battery. Many converters only hold 14.4-14.6V for a short period before dropping to a less aggressive 13.6-13.8V "absorption" voltage for ~12-ish hours. These two factors make getting LFP fully charged problematic. 13.6V at the terminals will get a LFP battery to 99%+ SoC, but the voltage drop due to the wiring losses, means while the converter may be outputting 13.6V @ X Amps, the battery is only seeing something like 13.2-13.4V, which means the charge could take more than the ~12 hours converters sit at 13.6V before dropping to 13.2V.

In some cases, some converters respond well to a power cycle on the AC input side to trigger re-bulk.

I always recommend one evaluate how their individual converter/installation handles an LFP battery before replacement. I do not like many of the LFP implementations because it seems like they got incomplete info and rush what they saw as a solution out to market because - hey... new market!

I'm a charging elitist. If you can't program a charger for a set absorption, charge termination criteria, and float voltage, it's a piece of garbage and should be shunned. While less than ideal, I have a strong preference for the Powermax line because they have adjustable bulk voltage, and can also be programmed to work as a constant voltage power supply. To be clear, it's better than garbage, but not ideal.

 

[NH_Bulldog]

The issue with the WF-9855-AD converter (and which I have discussed at great length with both the techs and engineers at WFCO and with Keystone) is that the auto detect senses how the battery accepts the charge in order to determine what type of battery is connected.

In a lead acid battery, the amount of charge the battery accepts slowly ramps downwards until it reaches capacity. This tells the converter that it is a lead acid battery. A lithium battery takes a charge at an even level until the BMS tells the battery to suddenly and abruptly stop accepting a charge. This sudden drop tells the converter that it is a lithium battery.

Where all of this goes afoul, is when you connect a solar charging system like SolarFlex. When the solar is contributing to the battery charging, it conflicts with the converter's ability to auto detect correctly. This causes the converter to revert back to a lead acid charging profile even if it was previously operating under the lithium charging profile.

I first discovered this when I installed lithium batteries and watched the converter change from green to blue. I would periodically check and sometimes it would be blue and sometimes green. Finally as I was getting ready to winterize, I brought my lithium batteries down to 20% and when I turned everything back on to charge the batteries (and with solar panels in full sun), it would not go back into lithium charging. This led me to the discussions with WFCO and Keystone and them pointing fingers at each other. WFCO said the only way to prevent the issue with auto detect was to turn off the solar charging unless I was off grid.

Anyway, I sent my converter back to WFCO and they "fixed" it so it will only charge lithium and not auto detect. They explained what they did and how to undo it in the event I wanted to to return the converter back to its original configuration.

In discussing with WFCO, their intent with auto detect was to eliminate the issue of someone having to install a wire jumper on their prior model WF-9855-LiS. It seems that when the factories were building the trailers, no one knew which one was getting lithium batteries, so the jumper wasn't installed. Then on other units where the dealer installed the lithium batteries, they either didn't know how or didn't bother installing the jumper. So you ended up with trailers with lithium batteries not fully charging because the converter wasn't configured properly. Auto detect was "supposed" to solve that (but didn't because of SolarFlex). So for now, I am pleased with WFCO's response to address my concerns. In time, I will replace it with a Progressive Dynamics model that is switchable, but for now this will do exactly what I want and need it to.

 

[snoobler]

A lithium battery takes a charge at an even level until the BMS tells the battery to suddenly and abruptly stop accepting a charge.

Actually, this should NEVER happen in a healthy and properly configured system.

Very few BMS, unless specifically programmed to do so by the user, do not trigger charge protection below 14.6-15.0V/cell (3.65-3.75V/cell).

If the BMS is triggering charge protection below 14.6V, it's a sign of internal cell imbalance as a single cell is exceeding the 3.65-3.75V value while the others are notably lower (often less than 3.40V/cell).

Unfortunately, regardless of price or perceived quality, MANY LFP batteries arrive at the consumer with imbalance present to the point that achieving full charge voltage triggers BMS protection because the SoC of the individual cells has drifted in the 90+ days since it left the factory. I've seen a battleborn that lost 47% of its capacity because the owner NEVER charged it above 14.0V on a Xantrex inverter/charger due to the inverter settings. It recovered to 90% capacity after being held above 14.0V for a couple of weeks to allow the BMS to balance the cells.

Deliberate efforts to balance the cells by cycling normally or holding at elevated voltage (depends on BMS config) will eventually allow the BMS to balance the cells, and BMS will NEVER cut off below 14.6V.

If WFCO is using the BMS cut-off as a trigger, they are completely asinine, and their products should be avoided like the plague. That is beyond stupid, UNLESS the converter is deliberately charging to 15.0V as part of its detection scheme. While imbalance is common, it doesn't always happen. I personally have a GoKWh brand 100Ah 12.8V that exceeded 14.8V before it triggered BMS protection. Would the WFCO ever detect it? Not if using BMS cut off criteria, but it would if it used absorption behavior.

As a decades long manufacturer of AC-DC chargers, these companies should have the expertise to properly identify and charge LFP or at least have the sense to put a damn switch on it.

This is just another reason for me to continue to encourage a "try it and see" approach vs. recommending a switch to a LFP compatible converter.

 

[NH_Bulldog]

If WFCO is using the BMS cut-off as a trigger, they are completely asinine, and their products should be avoided like the plague. That is beyond stupid, UNLESS the converter is deliberately charging to 15.0V as part of its detection scheme.

I agree, but that is the way the WFCO converter auto detects; by "sensing" how the battery stops accepting a charge. The converter will output 13.6v by default unless it senses the BMS cutoff which is unlikely since it needs 14.6v+ as you noted. The current model has only been in the market for a year. In my opinion, it was a nice attempt (although their methodology is flawed) but they should have stuck with the prior model which was user-configurable.

WFCO ended up sending me back a brand new converter with the most current firmware (V1.21A) and internal jumper installed to force it to 14.6v so I am happy for now, but the Progressive Dynamics PD9630 will be on my short list for the next time around.

 

[Stircrazy]

A lithium battery takes a charge at an even level until the BMS tells the battery to suddenly and abruptly stop accepting a charge. This sudden drop tells the converter that it is a lithium battery.

.

that's not quite right, the BMS will never stop a charge unless it has cold protection or you go to a over voltage condition in one or all cells and to fully charge a properly setup LiFePO4 battery you will never hit one of these conditions unless something is wrong so normal operation the BMS will just sit there and do nothing. you don't even need one to run a LiFePO4 battery but you have to constantly monitor your battery.

also a LiFePO4 battery will taper the amps if you are in a constant voltage charge. I do this every time I balance new cells. and that is what the adsorbtion phase from battle born you posted is for. the big difference is when the batteries start to taper off on the amprage. flooded batteries will do it very early at about 80% give or take and thats why the adsorbtion phase is so long and it take so lont to charge them up. a LiFePO4 will do it at about 99% so you can go bulk untill then. for example the batteries I am building curently are made from 304AH cells and the data sheet from eve to know when they are fully charged is once you hit 3.65V/cell so 14.6V you switch to constant voltage and when the amprage tapers to 0.05C you stop charging (I switch a bit sooner like around 3.63V/cell ) that is how fast the adsorbtion phase is. when I am running it in a 12V mode I have the voltage set at 14.5V to switch modes as it happens a lot faster than when I am doing the initial cell balance at 3.65V. My BMS is set to 3.68V for over voltage warning and 3.7V for shutdown so unless somthing goes wrong the BMS will never do anything. and before people scream 3.7V is way to high, eve lists that as the maximum operating voltage for their cells , if you have a battle born or other brand of cell go by their recomendations, beside it is the shutdown saftey not a operating value in my case.

 

[NH_Bulldog]

Maybe I am mis-stating the function of the BMS (just sharing what WFCO is saying), but the battery does stop accepting a charge more abruptly than a lead acid battery, and that difference is what the auto detect converter circuitry senses.

I defer to your knowledge on these systems, but I see this as similar to the way a battery discharges; a lithium battery generally outputs at an even level until it stops, and a lead acid battery will slowly ramp down until it no longer has “juice”.

What I can say for certain is that having to repeatedly disconnect my solar just to get the converter to auto detect correctly is a non-starter for me. My formerly auto-detect converter that is now lithium-only, solves that issue for me.

Here is a link to the WFCO video referencing the BMS stopping the charge:

And this is from their tech literature: Based on the voltage characteristics at the end of the charge cycle, the converter identifies whether the battery is lead-acid or lithium-ion