Keystone quality???

[Kzneft]

Sounds like you got off lucky with minor things. The RV industry now has some very bad reputations. If you want to see some horrible RV stories check out Liz Amazing, and you will be happy with the minor things you have.
Liz Amazing

 

[Life-in-Him]

Quality

Lots of words expressing the way things are in the RV world today, All
true, real, & history based.
the unresolved issue from a 60+ year RVist (built my own trailer in 1962) is by what way has any of our mutual education made its wisdom available prior to any other persons first purchase?
How does a first time buyer learn of PDI, or hiring a qualified inspector to find those loose battery connections or under inflated tires.
In retrospect we just tell each other our tears & wait for the cries for help after others are waist deep in their personal bog & quicksand.
It's great that problems are addressed post incident here, but dealers & RV mass-$ collectors won't ever change until pre-purchase wisdom somehow gets to the buyer's shoes before those shoes walk thru the door.

 

[jasin1]

Lots of words expressing the way things are in the RV world today, All
true, real, & history based.
the unresolved issue from a 60+ year RVist (built my own trailer in 1962) is by what way has any of our mutual education made its wisdom available prior to any other persons first purchase?
How does a first time buyer learn of PDI, or hiring a qualified inspector to find those loose battery connections or under inflated tires.
In retrospect we just tell each other our tears & wait for the cries for help after others are waist deep in their personal bog & quicksand.
It's great that problems are addressed post incident here, but dealers & RV mass-$ collectors won't ever change until pre-purchase wisdom somehow gets to the buyer's shoes before those shoes walk thru the door.

Quote: How does a first time buyer learn of PDI?

From the Internet…..most people nowadays won’t order takeout food without checking online…won’t buy a car without seeing the reviews of the car and the dealer online…Won’t go on vacation somewhere without checking out trip adviser… It only takes a few minutes to find anything you could possibly have a question about…. But some people skip that step….”so you get what we had here last week”

 

[sourdough]

Lots of words expressing the way things are in the RV world today, All
true, real, & history based.
the unresolved issue from a 60+ year RVist (built my own trailer in 1962) is by what way has any of our mutual education made its wisdom available prior to any other persons first purchase?
How does a first time buyer learn of PDI, or hiring a qualified inspector to find those loose battery connections or under inflated tires.
In retrospect we just tell each other our tears & wait for the cries for help after others are waist deep in their personal bog & quicksand.
It's great that problems are addressed post incident here, but dealers & RV mass-$ collectors won't ever change until pre-purchase wisdom somehow gets to the buyer's shoes before those shoes walk thru the door.

The old days are gone. The internet is here and at everyone's fingertips. How do you know? Ask the internet. Same goes for problematic vehicles, engines, trannys etc. Research. That was not possible decades ago but now it is. To not do it is failing to do your due diligence.

 

[Life-in-Him]

Due Diligence?

Yes/No

When you look @ everything else in the 202x world, due diligence is not part of today's world.
Looking into anything nefore buying it is shunted by "return for full refund" mentality.
Supposing "I" can check it out or try it on & return it because the color is off or just because has replaced logic, plan, think, & every other concept you & I were rsised with. Witness 600,000 RV sales recently.

Today if you buy a bottle of catsup you can take it back whether open or not.
That's the reality of economics. The sucker walking in the door is still $$$ taken easily. & very few people check out the "truthfulness" of internet information.
AI is & will dig deeper moats around smaller truth centers ever faster.
have many of us done an internet search on RV quality issues & looked beyond the glamor-sell it responses?

 

[jsb5717]

Sadly, we can't by our RV's from Amazon. There is a general "No Return" policy in place. If a potential buyer doesn't do their due diligence on the dealer and the RV then the industry will make them wish they had. It's a hard lesson to learn after the fact.

 

[flybouy]

I think a lot of what we are seeing is one part "disposable mentality" and part "generational inexperience ". Not bashing any one generation, just saying they haven't had the experiences of "older generations". I remember my dad using a matchbook cover to file and set the gap of the points "to get us home". My dad was constantly working on the washing machine timer the looked like the fuse for an A-bomb it had so many wires attached. He tought me how to clean the old tuners in the tv and check the tube in the tube tester at the drug store. This may sound irrelevant today, but the most important lesson was how to solve problems and have the confidence to keep at it until the problem was solved.

These days, if you ask a driver where the spare tire is you'll likely get a shoulder shrug answer. Many folks haven't experienced trouble shooting an appliance or have the skill set to logically figure out how something they have never seen works. You can't blame the manufacturers for taking advantage of this inexperience when they are in business of selling unite, not teaching folks how to maintain or repair them.

JMO, YMMV

 

[sourdough]

I think a lot of what we are seeing is one part "disposable mentality" and part "generational inexperience ". Not bashing any one generation, just saying they haven't had the experiences of "older generations". I remember my dad using a matchbook cover to file and set the gap of the points "to get us home". My dad was constantly working on the washing machine timer the looked like the fuse for an A-bomb it had so many wires attached. He tought me how to clean the old tuners in the tv and check the tube in the tube tester at the drug store. This may sound irrelevant today, but the most important lesson was how to solve problems and have the confidence to keep at it until the problem was solved.

These days, if you ask a driver where the spare tire is you'll likely get a shoulder shrug answer. Many folks haven't experienced trouble shooting an appliance or have the skill set to logically figure out how something they have never seen works. You can't blame the manufacturers for taking advantage of this inexperience when they are in business of selling unite, not teaching folks how to maintain or repair them.

JMO, YMMV

You're right along with the fact that everyone anymore "has more". Back when there weren't government programs to fill every gap if you didn't, couldn't or weren't motivated to work; you would starve. Folks made livings and everyone was happy but....there was no A/C in the window, not TV in the living room. If something broke it was the only "one" of them you had and you had to be motivated, and intelligent enough, to "make it work" - that required ingenuity and figuring out how things worked and that then moved into every facet of your life.

We had not "hardware stores" when I was growing up. No source for screws, nuts, bolts etc. How do you survive that? Me and dad went to the dump and pulled screws, nuts, bolts, hardware etc. off of discarded washing machines, trucks, cars etc. We had a WALL full of those items...didn't cost a cent. If it broke you figured it out and fixed it. Our current generations cannot, and could not, fathom utilizing those kinds of resources. It's sad but it's reality.

Those same things then dovetail into buying, owning, repairing, installing etc. modern appliances, RVs, cars etc. It's not a big deal for older folks to just drop in, dig in, figure it out and "get er done". Others these days were never taught, never had to "do without" and think it all should be "the way I want it".....never has been.

 

[Life-in-Him]

Diligence

It's interesting we bring forth our fundamentals. We know each of them as if they were yesterday. That's what makes us full of life enough to live the RV lifestyle.
Don't know about you, but telling & teaching those stories to our kids, our neighbors, & around the campfire mean there are & will continue to be some who look for that old tube tester or VOM or whatever to fix what's broke.
Then when the power grid goes down like we've see here & there, someone can theach the unknowing how to count change, find a candle stike a match & light the candle.

If all we do is keep it to ourselves, the result will be a world we don’t want.

 

[sourdough]

It's interesting we bring forth our fundamentals. We know each of them as if they were yesterday. That's what makes us full of life enough to live the RV lifestyle.
Don't know about you, but telling & teaching those stories to our kids, our neighbors, & around the campfire mean there are & will continue to be some who look for that old tube tester or VOM or whatever to fix what's broke.
Then when the power grid goes down like we've see here & there, someone can theach the unknowing how to count change, find a candle stike a match & light the candle.

If all we do is keep it to ourselves, the result will be a world we don’t want.

True. A couple of weeks ago? we had storms here in W TX that shut down our power. We grew up in the olden days and no too much flusters us. Power out, dark...but the sun was coming up - time for breakfast!! Have all sorts of grills, cooktops etc. out back so when the sun came up I was out with bacon, eggs, hash browns etc. - DD called in the middle of it all. DW told her what was going on and what we were doing (great breakfast by the way). Fast forward to a couple of days ago when those storms passed through FL tearing down trees and taking out power. DD called and asked how to fire up the Charbroil grill I'd given her for BBQ...and times like those.

DD grew up outdoors and doing outdoors things but got married right out of college and became sort of "citified". I had been working on her since she got divorced and she is becoming much more self reliant remembering back to "the good old days". On this day she fired up the grill as her and DGD sat ouside on the deck, cooked pan fried pork chops, a chicken stir fry, coffee and other items....outside. They had a super time and felt so "freed". It's unfortunate we have lost those abilities/capabilities in so many ways.

 

[wiredgeorge]

Quote: How does a first time buyer learn of PDI?

From the Internet…..most people nowadays won’t order takeout food without checking online…won’t buy a car without seeing the reviews of the car and the dealer online…Won’t go on vacation somewhere without checking out trip adviser… It only takes a few minutes to find anything you could possibly have a question about…. But some people skip that step….”so you get what we had here last week”

Brian, You don't know what you don't know. First RV I bought was a Lance truck camper and plunked it on a base model F150... First thing I learned is that my tires were not up to it when I saw them bulge like crazy. Did some research and bought truck tires. Next thing I noticed is that the truck wallowed. I then found out about payload and found my Lance camper was about twice the payload of my truck. Next thing I learned was that my wife would not camp with a wet bath. Next thing I learned was to take it off my poor little 1/2 ton and park it with a FOR SALE sign. Next thing I learned that if I wanted to camp I needed a bigger truck and hence the 96 F250.

Went through a few bumper pulls and got my first 5th wheel and discovered it was a better tow. It was a small toy hauler and next thing I learned that the missus hated storing everything on the beds in back and having to take a number of hours to set up and no counter space.

Lesson here is we don't know what we don't know. Would I have been smarter to research and learn from the experiences of others? Probably but I just am not that smart I guess. I have paid for my education but think perhaps that DIY and evolving in my knowledge base has worked OK. Don't tell someone he "should have gone to youtube to pre-educate" because you don't know what you don't know. I now find youtube invaluable since I don't read directions either.

 

[wiredgeorge]

True. A couple of weeks ago? we had storms here in W TX that shut down our power. We grew up in the olden days and no too much flusters us. Power out, dark...but the sun was coming up - time for breakfast!! Have all sorts of grills, cooktops etc. out back so when the sun came up I was out with bacon, eggs, hash browns etc. - DD called in the middle of it all. DW told her what was going on and what we were doing (great breakfast by the way). Fast forward to a couple of days ago when those storms passed through FL tearing down trees and taking out power. DD called and asked how to fire up the Charbroil grill I'd given her for BBQ...and times like those.

DD grew up outdoors and doing outdoors things but got married right out of college and became sort of "citified". I had been working on her since she got divorced and she is becoming much more self reliant remembering back to "the good old days". On this day she fired up the grill as her and DGD sat ouside on the deck, cooked pan fried pork chops, a chicken stir fry, coffee and other items....outside. They had a super time and felt so "freed". It's unfortunate we have lost those abilities/capabilities in so many ways.

Poor OP admitted he didn't get much from the Keystone manual that came with his camper. You might consider DD, DW, DGD are not in there either bhwhwhahahahaha

 

[jasin1]

Brian, You don't know what you don't know. First RV I bought was a Lance truck camper and plunked it on a base model F150... First thing I learned is that my tires were not up to it when I saw them bulge like crazy. Did some research and bought truck tires. Next thing I noticed is that the truck wallowed. I then found out about payload and found my Lance camper was about twice the payload of my truck. Next thing I learned was that my wife would not camp with a wet bath. Next thing I learned was to take it off my poor little 1/2 ton and park it with a FOR SALE sign. Next thing I learned that if I wanted to camp I needed a bigger truck and hence the 96 F250.

Went through a few bumper pulls and got my first 5th wheel and discovered it was a better tow. It was a small toy hauler and next thing I learned that the missus hated storing everything on the beds in back and having to take a number of hours to set up and no counter space.

Lesson here is we don't know what we don't know. Would I have been smarter to research and learn from the experiences of others? Probably but I just am not that smart I guess. I have paid for my education but think perhaps that DIY and evolving in my knowledge base has worked OK. Don't tell someone he "should have gone to youtube to pre-educate" because you don't know what you don't know. I now find youtube invaluable since I don't read directions either.

I was responding to the question “where is a person to learn about PDI?”….Today it’s the internet….But yes your right about what you don’t know …You George probably remember when i came on the forum,i was new to fifth wheel towing and had a 3/4 ton diesel truck with not enough payload to support it….I did not know enough about Tow vehicles and the weird issue with diesel 3/4 ton trucks built before around 2018 that had barely any payload.

I did research some of the other aspects of rvs but admittedly not a whole lot because i was caught up in the excitement of camping and new destinations and we had other bumper pulls in the past..
I had the dealer install my hitch and thought i was good to go.

At the end of the day i have nobody to blame but myself for not knowing what i was getting into

I should have spent a little more time researching all aspects of buying and owning a fifth wheel…and before the internet there were still friends and neighbors a person could ask for advice during the buying process.

Something that comes up on the forum occasionally is “ I had a rv delivered from X number of miles away and never stepped foot in the rig until it was legally mine and now i’m unhappy”…Or “i never got on the roof to inspect it” ..or “ I bought a fifth wheel but do not have a truck to tow it and it needs warranty work, now what am i supposed to do!”…. “ITS THE DEALERS FAULT”

Everyone from the rv manufacturer to the dealer to the purchaser plays a part in the process and shares some responsibility…The trifecta is when everyone does their part.

 

[flybouy]

I think the RV owner, boat owners, etc. naturally start at one point and morph to another point in their adventures. The exception would be the person that experienced those "toys" early in life. Someone that grows up (and pays attention) and is totally involved would have an advantage.

What do I mean by "totally involved? That would be a youngster that was interested and hung around during the maintenance and not just there "for the ride.) I was a nosey kid growing up. I wanted to know how things worked and why. So from a young age I was attached at my fathers hip as he was constantly working on something. If it wasn't the cars it was prepping and pouring concrete for a new driveway & garage. I helped him replace windows, replace the roof, add a large addition to the house, etc, etc. He had the patience of a Saint and never appeared agitated with my endless questions. Even while rebuilding a car carburetor he would explain each part, their function, and why he had to clean or replace it.

I was very blessed to have such an experience but teaching is 1/2 of the equation as you also must have a willing student.

 

[Notanlines]

Marshall, your statement "These days, if you ask a driver where the spare tire is you'll likely get a shoulder shrug answer" certainly hit home. We had a flat tire on the interstate three years ago in our "beat around town Chrysler minivan." Where is the spare? How in the dickens should I know? There is a half-inch bolt under the carpet between the front seats that requires 42 turns to the left to lower the spare to the ground. Not 40. My DW had to Google the answer to "How do I disconnect the cable from the spare. I kid you not.
Bad engineering is not limited to northern Indiana, but exists in Detroit also.
Now I have to around all day knowing I'm the fool you were talking about.

 

[flybouy]

Marshall, your statement "These days, if you ask a driver where the spare tire is you'll likely get a shoulder shrug answer" certainly hit home. We had a flat tire on the interstate three years ago in our "beat around town Chrysler minivan." Where is the spare? How in the dickens should I know? There is a half-inch bolt under the carpet between the front seats that requires 42 turns to the left to lower the spare to the ground. Not 40. My DW had to Google the answer to "How do I disconnect the cable from the spare. I kid you not.
Bad engineering is not limited to northern Indiana, but exists in Detroit also.
Now I have to around all day knowing I'm the fool you were talking about.

Dearborn and Detroit are notorious for bad engineering. I know what you speak of with the mini-van. Our DD had a flat and of course dad goes to the rescue! What an experience with her Chrysler Town & Country! When I pulled up ( wit the shirt thzt says " Don't worry, Dad can fix it"on that she bought for me) she thought I was going to chastise her as I drilled into our DD to know how to change a flat. She immediately said I don't have a spare!. What a journey finding it, getting it out and changing it on the side of the road.

Another example, the DW drives our '09 F150 KR. It's old but well maintained with just over 100k on the odometer. It has the multi zone temperature controls and a blend door failed causing full heat only on the driver side. Any guess how much that $45 blend door replacement cost? It was just over $2k. Mostly labour's as the AC system had to be drained to take out the entire dashboard (steering column and all) to get to the blend door motor. I did spend the extra money and had them replace all 4 blend door motors. So, for replacing the cheap price of plastic about the size of a cassette tape, it cost close to the book value of the truck.

 

[TXiceman]

Keystone has a long way to go to have a quality unit. Seems every time we take the Cougar out, we have something fall off. Mostly trim work that was not properly installed. I have several trim pieces I need to reattach now.

Most recent major failure was the rear kitchen 54" wide shade dropped. I found this large shade attached by TWP screws into a Luan manel above it with no backing. Frankly a piss-poor design.

We have RVed since 1984 and full timed for 10 years starting in 2012. We had a 2013 NuWa HitcHiker Champagne and really did not have these issues with it. Granted it was a much more expensive RV, but the Cougar should still have basic QC to make sure it is assembled properly and not tossed together.

Honestly, I feel you are better off buying an older (pre 2019) unit and making the necessary repairs to fix the little things. The RV industry has gone to the dogs.

Hopefully, this unit will last another 4 years,

Ken

 

[JRTJH]

Marshall, your statement "These days, if you ask a driver where the spare tire is you'll likely get a shoulder shrug answer" certainly hit home. We had a flat tire on the interstate three years ago in our "beat around town Chrysler minivan." Where is the spare? How in the dickens should I know? There is a half-inch bolt under the carpet between the front seats that requires 42 turns to the left to lower the spare to the ground. Not 40. My DW had to Google the answer to "How do I disconnect the cable from the spare. I kid you not.
Bad engineering is not limited to northern Indiana, but exists in Detroit also.
Now I have to around all day knowing I'm the fool you were talking about.

Let's look at this "for what it means with an RV:

How many "new Keystone owners" have a jack, lug wrench, lug nuts to fit their steel wheel if they ever do have a flat on their Keystone trailer ?????? They certainly don't come with any Keystone from the factory !!!!! But, how many actually don't know there's not a "secret compartment" hidden away where all that stuff is stored, like in a car or truck (except those that only have a can of "sealant with air" instead of an actual spare)...

I ALWAYS recommend that new owners ACTUALLY CHANGE A FLAT TIRE IN THEIR DRIVEWAY OR STORAGE LOT BEFORE THEY START TOWING.....

Why? If you don't have a jack that fits under a FLAT tire (not a fully aired up tire) you can't even start the process.

If you don't have a lug wrench that fits BOTH the closed face chrome lug nuts on the aluminum wheels AND the open faced lug nuts needed to tighten the thinner steel wheel to the axle/hub, you can't move to step 3.

If you don't have lug nuts with enough depth (or open faced lug nuts that don't bottom out) you can't tighten the spare to the axle. Try to tow that to the next exit and you'll be buying a new hub or 4,5 6 or 8 lugs to "rebuild your destroyed hub"...

Changing a spare is just one of hundreds of "unique and RV oriented" new tasks that any new owner needs to "at least be aware of"... I'd say, "should be able to do" but not everyone can "do their own maintenance and emergency repairs".... Those who can, really need to take the bull by the horns and at least be familiar with how to fix enough stuff to get their "road hazard off the highway" if the stuff hits the fan......

OK, I'll get off my soap box and go back to my corner now......

 

[Life-in-Him]

As life ebbs & flows we think we're going to outsmart our problems coming down the road.
maybe, maybe not.
But the good ol' internet 'll save us from all that.
just punch in a? Or 2 & AI will give you the answer you "need".
Thinking about buying an RV & going full-time instead of living in a S&B working 9-5?
No need to enter the question or facts, let AI give you an answer from your thoughts & dreams.
Or do we become seduced by Artificial Insanity inplace of intelligent questions.

 

[JRTJH]

As life ebbs & flows we think we're going to outsmart our problems coming down the road.
maybe, maybe not.
But the good ol' internet 'll save us from all that.
just punch in a? Or 2 & AI will give you the answer you "need".
Thinking about buying an RV & going full-time instead of living in a S&B working 9-5?
No need to enter the question or facts, let AI give you an answer from your thoughts & dreams.
Or do we become seduced by Artificial Insanity inplace of intelligent questions.

In my VERY LIMITED exposure to AI, I've found that it will "give you the answer you want" not "give you the factual answer you need"... It's more a "equity based feel good answer" rather than always being factual and directly related to the question you asked....

Maybe that's just what I've seen, but the last time I asked Wikipedia or Google "How good is the Cougar?" I got some answers about wildlife and then some answers that were "about as wild as older women can be".... So, putting any "faith in what Ai might help you research" is not necessarily sufficient to prevent the "SHOCKING QUALITY" of a Keystone Cougar (or Alpine or ....)