Inverter Adder Advice - 2025 Hideout 31BRD

[ajmidd12]

I'm fairly competent when it comes to AC/DC wiring systems having built quite a few automotive audio systems back in the days.

What I'm unfamiliar with is how Keystone wired up my 2025 Hideout 31BRD.

We will be camping somewhat off grid a few times this summer, I figure adding a 3000 watt inverter will tide us over overnight during silent times where we can run a generator during the day living off battery power for +/- 12 hours.

The existing system has a built in SolarFlex Protect 220watt solar panel with SmartSolar MPPT Controller, this will remain isolated from the inverter loop I'm adding. The installed solar system "should" theoretically charge a single 12v deep cycle in approx 8 hours.

Here's my part's list so far... am I missing anything?

- Inverter purchased - PUH - 12V 3000W Pure Sine Wave Inverter with UPS Transfer Switch and Built-in Bluetooth
PUH - 12V 3000W Pure Sine Wave Inverter with UPS Transfer Switch and Built-in Bluetooth
- Disconnect 275amps - https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07413JWLD/ref=ewc_pr_img_1?smid=A2ZNPLJCY5BQIU&th=1
- Fuse 300amps - Amazon.ca

We only want to run the 7 receptacles within the camper overnight (cellphone chargers, TV use, and maybe the occasional coffee maker) off the batteries (will be adding a second battery as well). A/C will be run during the day only on generator or shore power, maybe upgrade down the road to more batteries and another 220w solar panel.

If I understand the wiring schematics, the "inverter ready" has a single roomex loop one side is hot (from shore/plug in) other side is receptacles (inc GFCI plugs) this "should" technically work with the built in Automatic Transfer Switch changing over from shore to battery when shore isn't available.

I'll run it completely standalone directly back to the battery banks at the front into the passthru storage with the other solar gear already installed.

Thoughts / comments / suggestions?

 

[chuckster57]

I don’t see anything wrong, just make sure the cables from the battery are sized properly and I didn’t see a fuse between the battery and inverter.

 

[ajmidd12]

I don’t see anything wrong, just make sure the cables from the battery are sized properly and I didn’t see a fuse between the battery and inverter.

Might have missed that, battery > 400amp fuse > inverter. Inverter > 30amp fuse > AC load.

Thats my plan, all will be mounted to the wall inside the pass thru compartment.

 

[chuckster57]

You mean 30A breaker> AC load? There should be a breaker in the power distribution panel that will handle that task.

 

[ajmidd12]

You mean 30A breaker> AC load? There should be a breaker in the power distribution panel that will handle that task.

Ah right, individual breakers in the panel to run the GFCI loop. I guess that 30amp is redundant.

 

[chuckster57]

Yup, not needed IMO

 

[NH_Bulldog]

If you are using the inverter loop prep, have you confirmed what exact outlets are on that loop and what size the Romex is? A 3,000 watt inverter is overkill and is more than 12 ga. Romex (yellow) can handle, and the inverted loop is only protected by a 15a breaker.

Keep in mind that if you use a 2,000w inverter and it is within 3-5 ft of the battery, you will need 2/0 cables. Any more distance or using a larger inverter, you will need to increase your cable size to 3/0 or even better 4/0 (that is not 4 AWG, but 4/0).

In my setup I used two 100ah LiFePO4 batteries, an IP65 Smart shunt, a second 220w solar panel, a 2,000w inverter with auto transfer and passthrough power, 2/0 cables (I bought black and red cables in 10’ lengths and cut and crimped my own connectors), a 275A inverter disconnect switch and a 250A inline ANL fuse.

We recently completed a ten day road trip and everything works great. It was nice to have our electric outdoor kitchen refrigerator operational and being able to run the Keurig for coffee regardless of where we camped or whether we had shore power. We didn’t bring the generator and the solar kept us powered up.

 

[ajmidd12]

If you are using the inverter loop prep, have you confirmed what exact outlets are on that loop and what size the Romex is? A 3,000 watt inverter is overkill and is more than 12 ga. Romex (yellow) can handle, and the inverted loop is only protected by a 15a breaker.

Keep in mind that if you use a 2,000w inverter and it is within 3-5 ft of the battery, you will need 2/0 cables. Any more distance or using a larger inverter, you will need to increase your cable size to 3/0 or even better 4/0 (that is not 4 AWG, but 4/0).

In my setup I used two 100ah LiFePO4 batteries, an IP65 Smart shunt, a second 220w solar panel, a 2,000w inverter with auto transfer and passthrough power, 2/0 cables (I bought black and red cables in 10’ lengths and cut and crimped my own connectors), a 275A inverter disconnect switch and a 250A inline ANL fuse.

We recently completed a ten day road trip and everything works great. It was nice to have our electric outdoor kitchen refrigerator operational and being able to run the Keurig for coffee regardless of where we camped or whether we had shore power. We didn’t bring the generator and the solar kept us powered up.

The inverter prep loop is 14/2. There are (7) receptacles on that circuit all run by a GFCI as a primary (in bathroom), the A/C is also on the AC circuits side of the main panel, I don't particularly 'need' A/C overnight but the 3000watt inverter will be able to start the A/C compressor (2 sec load of approx. 18amps peak draw then levels out).

Inverters don't pump out constant wattage it does throttle and only puts out what is needed at that particular load demand (IE even less if needed). They typically prefer to operate in the 'sweet zone' of 80% capacity (2400watts). Plus they have built in surge protection and overpower protection. The built in panel within the trailer has a main 30amp breaker w/ 120v circuits on one side, with individual 12v circuits on other side (kind of a hybrid of a house panel and automotive panel). I do agree that this is a lot of wattage, hence why I am adding a redundant 30amp breaker immediately after the inverter, should help keep the line 14/2 cool. The system is designed to carry 30amps from shore throughout including this 'inverter ready' loop, plus this trailer is 2nd A/C ready and setup to accept 50amps (if I recall correctly).

I will however be adding an additional (maybe 2 or 3 for a total of 4) deep cycle batteries 100ah each, should be plenty of power for overnight use.

Eventually the add of a second 220watt solar panel will help top up the batteries.

 

[chuckster57]

I haven’t seen a trailer that has 30A service with a 50A “prep”. If your trailer has 1 AC installed and is “prepped” for a second AC it should be 50A from the factory. Typically 1 AC on each leg of the Shore feed. I would be interested in the pictures of the breaker panel, and shore cord.

 

[NH_Bulldog]

Just keep in mind that the air conditioner is not in the inverter prep loop (nor is the microwave). Unless you are wiring your inverter directly to your power center, all the inverter will do is power "up to" 7 outlets that Keystone wired into the 14 ga Romex loop. I have 7 confirmed outlets on my inverter prep loop, but they used 12 ga Romex on mine, so if yours is 14 ga, I would confirm exactly how many outlets are really on that loop. You should have a 15A breaker labeled "Inverted Recepts". Flip that breaker off and use a circuit tester and see what outlets are not operational. I have 3 inverted outlets in the master bedroom (TV and one on either side of the bed), 1 in the kitchen, 1 in the living area (TV), 1 in the outdoor kitchen (mini fridge) and 1 in the front passthrough.

If you do intend to modify your system to have the inverter power your entire camper, don't forget to build in a way to disconnect/disable your converter so you don't create a "death loop".

Lastly, using an inverted outlet to plug in a cell phone charger is very inefficient since you are taking DC power, inverting it to AC power, and then converting it back to DC power to charge a phone. It is better to just plug your phones directly into any of the myriad of high power USB-A or USB-C ports located throughout the camper.

 

[ajmidd12]

Thanks for the notes gents! For what it's worth I agree with both of you, I too found it "weird" the way they described the 30amp dual A/C setup, thinking they probably had one A/C to both sides of the 30amp shore line.

Just confirmed 12ga is what it is, my bro-in law is out there and checked for me.

The plan is to rewire not only the 'inverter prep' circuit(s) but the entire DC system to the inverter down the road (likely this coming winter), in the interim the 30amp breaker and disconnect to disable the inverter prevent any catastrophic failures.

 

[chuckster57]

There is only 1 “hot” side to a 30A RV circuit. 3 wires:
Load
Neutral
Ground

Unless the factory installed a power management system for the AC’s (like some older motorhomes) I would be real Leary of trying to run 2 on a single 30A line.

 

[ajmidd12]

There is only 1 “hot” side to a 30A RV circuit. 3 wires:
Load
Neutral
Ground

Unless the factory installed a power management system for the AC’s (like some older motorhomes) I would be real Leary of trying to run 2 on a single 30A line.

Yeah, not sure how Keystone sets up the new units with 2nd A/C ready on 30amps. Even if they are new efficient units eventually breakers will pop.

 

[chuckster57]

What roof units are they using? I know Furrion “chill” units are low amp draw.

 

[ajmidd12]

What roof units are they using? I know Furrion “chill” units are low amp draw.

Could be, I haven't dove deep enough into that yet. I do know the fridge was changed to an electric fridge already on a DC circuit.

 

[NH_Bulldog]

Mine is a Furrion Chill HE 15k, and stock it pulls 1,730 watts and 15.8A running in cooling mode (but does spike higher at start-up).

I added a Micro-Air EasyStart and data-logged the power draw through the start cycle of the two fans and the compressor. What helps the Furrion units is that it starts the evaporator fan first, and then once it is running it kicks in the condenser fan and then the compressor starts. This stepped motor starting cycle does help keep the power draw down and manageable from stock, but it is still a power hog without the soft start

At rest: 0.0 A, 1.9 W
Evaporator fan start 4.7 A and 526.8 W
Evaporator fan run 3.4 A and 262.2 W
Condenser fan start 7.7 A and 284.4 W
Compressor start 11.3 A and 1250 W
Compressor run in full cooling mode 10.6 A and 1161 W

 

[flybouy]

Thanks for the notes gents! For what it's worth I agree with both of you, I too found it "weird" the way they described the 30amp dual A/C setup, thinking they probably had one A/C to both sides of the 30amp shore line.

Just confirmed 12ga is what it is, my bro-in law is out there and checked for me.

The plan is to rewire not only the 'inverter prep' circuit(s) but the entire DC system to the inverter down the road (likely this coming winter), in the interim the 30amp breaker and disconnect to disable the inverter prevent any catastrophic failures.

With all due respect it sounds to me like you have high ambitions but not enough knowledge. Not trying to be harsh but rather save you some heartache and disappointment down the road. There's a lot to figure out about solar and off grid operations.

First, you need to identify what exactly you have, i.e. 50 or 30 Amp shore power, wire size of inverter loop, pre wired inverter outlets, and desired load. The load would be what 120 vacuum appliances you wany to operate including make/model number and electrical information.

Next you need to calculate the total number of watts those appliances and the 12 vdc loads will require. You need to calculate the number of hours those loads will draw off the batteries to come up with a run time before the batteries will need to be charged.

After gathering the above info it's time to consider what capacity batteries are required. Flooded lead acid batteries can only use around 50% of their capacity before being damaged. Lithium Ion can use up to 80% of their capacity before charging.

After gathering that info you need to consider how you're going to recharge those batteries. A 200 watt panel is OK to recharge a fla battery IF you have good, direct sunlight all day.

As for running the a/c you'll be very disappointed in just how quickly those batteries will drain. Don't feel discouraged as the point is there's a lot to learn before you jump on that solar train. Many folks get "out over their skis" and end up chasing that rabbit down hole. It's a lot better to do your due dillagence and find out the cost vs getting a couple of k$ into it and realizing you're no where near finished spending money to accomplish your goals.

 

[chuckster57]

Mine is a Furrion Chill HE 15k, and stock it pulls 1,730 watts and 15.8A running in cooling mode (but does spike higher at start-up).

I added a Micro-Air EasyStart and data-logged the power draw through the start cycle of the two fans and the compressor. What helps the Furrion units is that it starts the evaporator fan first, and then once it is running it kicks in the condenser fan and then the compressor starts. This stepped motor starting cycle does help keep the power draw down and manageable from stock, but it is still a power hog without the soft start

At rest: 0.0 A, 1.9 W
Evaporator fan start 4.7 A and 526.8 W
Evaporator fan run 3.4 A and 262.2 W
Condenser fan start 7.7 A and 284.4 W
Compressor start 11.3 A and 1250 W
Compressor run in full cooling mode 10.6 A and 1161 W

Just wondering, where did you measure.

 

[GoingPlaces]

Instead of a fuse on the hot wire from the battery to the inverter you might want to think about using a DC circuit breaker. In the (hopefully) rare event the fuse blows you would a) have to have a spare and b) replace it.

DC Circuit Breaker

There are other models by other vendors.

 

[jxnbbl]

IMO - "cellphone chargers, TV use, and maybe the occasional coffee maker"

you should NOT install a 3000W inverter....way too big for this usage and it should not be injected into a "The inverter prep loop is 14/2" wire loop unless you put in a load distribution center downstream from the inverter with a 15A breaker protecting those 7 outlets.

For the list you provided you could get away with a 1500W inverter (coffee maker is the gating factor) and save yourself a lot of headaches.