Furnace and converter adventures

Dustytrailer

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2024
Posts
10
Location
Albuquerque
Hey all, we live in a montana 346lbq 5th wheel and have been since June. Now that it's winter time we're having some puzzling issues with the dc appliances. Namely the furnace. It's kind of a long story but I want to be thorough.

About a month ago it got cold enough that we wanted to try using the furance. My sister had had lots of problems with it when she owned this rig but had supposedly gotten someone to fix it. We set the thermostat and went out for the night and when we got home the lights were dim and the propane detector was beeping.

After a few hours of trouble shooting in the dark I determined our battery was not fully charged but seemed to hold a charge fine when connected to a 12v charger. I disconnected the leads and measured the volts coming from the converter itself and they read at about 8. I started believing we were having a converter issue. Got a small 2 amp charger my grandpa let us keep hooked up to the battery and it seemed to get us back to normal. We didn't touch the furnace because my sister said they suspected it might be drawing too much power so we just made due with a space heater running in the room before bed and packing all 5 of our animals in the room with us so they wouldn't be too cold as the RV dropped to 30 and below inside.

Que a few weeks of not enough time or money to do more, our lights dim again and I switch the little 2 amp charger out for a 12 v intelligent pulse charger. Everything seems good except one time where the lights dim, I go out and the charger is off. I turn it back on and were all good again.

Just recently I've had enough time and money to actually consider getting to the bottom of this. I find our converter, it's fuses are all good, the power from the outlet is fine, while the smart charger is hooked up it's reading around 14 volts. I disconnect the leads and it drops to 8. My grandpa who is a bit of a handyman (though by his own admission this is a bit out of his area of expertise) thinks that maybe it needs to be connected to properly output charge so I disconnect the charger, reconnect the converter. It starts out at around 13.5 and after about 20 minutes drops to 12.9 while just the lights and fridge should be running.

Turn on the furnace and it drops further to about 12.4 but otherwise seems fine. My grandpa thinks this is fine and nothing seems to be wrong but why did we have a complete failure a month ago? I feel like the converter seems to be inconsistent or at least not giving as much as it should and still kinda want to replace it while we have the funds to do so. My grandpa is also saying to not run the furnace at night and only run it in the morning but I'd like to keep the inside above freezing for our cats and dogs so they can sleep comfy without us having to crowd everyone into our room at night. I'm about to check it one more time before putting everything away again but would love some insight from anyone who has been doing this longer.
 
First the assumptions;

Is your Montana plugged into a 50 amp power outlet?

How old is your battery?

What size is your battery?

If you are on shore power and converter is charging correctly, your battery should be reading about 13v to 13.5 volts all the time.
The furnace fan is a heavy draw on a battery, but a fully charged group 27 battery will run a furnace over night in high 30's easily.
Sounds like you might have a bad converter.
 
Thank you for your reply!

Yes we are plugged into a 50 amp shore power post.

Battery should be under 2 years old. When my sister had someone come out to look at their furnace they told them it was either the battery or the furnace and so they replaced the battery I believe last year. That seemed to fix their problem so they didn't do anything further.

It's a group 31 battery so your comment makes me think it should easily be staying above 13. Checked again just now and it was 12.3 I went ahead and put the pulse charger back on and am probably going to order the new converter. I was thinking the recpro 75 amp.
 
First, your battery is toast, whether as a result of a bad converter, or something separate.

You NEVER want a lead acid battery to drop below 50% state of charge, which is 12.23v. Anything below 11.6v is considered a 0% state of charge, or in other words, it is dead and it suffered permanent damage and will never fully charge or properly discharge ever again.

Your converter should output sufficient voltage to run everything without any power reduction. If it cannot maintain an appropriate level of power while under load, then your converter is suspect.
 
I would suspect the battery swap enabled the furnace to operate until it discharged completely. Then your trickle charger likely added a "top charge" to the damaged battery until that no longer was sufficient. I don't know what your latest charger is as they are available in various voltage/amperage combinations. Here's the thing, irrespective of the charger, a damaged battery cannot be "fixed" and will eventually damage the charger when the plates warp and short out inside the battery.

I would suggest your first step is to remove the battery and have it test. Any chain autoprts store should do this for free. If the battery is damaged then replace it. Then, before connecting the new battery check the voltage at the battery terminal connection. This will reveal what is actually reaching the battery. A poor ground connection to the frame ground terminal can reduce the voltage. If the voltage is below 14v DC or so then it's time to find out why.

If the voltage is low, then go inside and check the voltage at the converter. If the voltage is low there as well then it would indicate a defective converter. The 12vdc system is a system and if you don't diagnose the system then you'll continue to chase your tail until you stumble upon the element that's failed in the system.
 
Our battery is an agm marine battery. Would that be hit as hard by all this as a lead acid? My grandpa and I load tested it yesterday while it was on the charger and it didn't show a significant drop under load. Stayed within the green at least. Would you all still recommend bringing it in to an autoparts store for another test?

My grandpa just has a simple load test battery tester. Not sure if his is from amazon or harbor freight but it's this design essentially

71-ltpL+AaL._AC_UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg


The charger is a cheap amazon charger. RJ Tianye 12V intelligent pulse charger. Pictured below. Have it set to the agm/gel setting at the moment.

013114-3.jpg
 
When I tested it yesterday before removing the charger it was up at 14v it didn't drop to 12.9 until I took the charger off and relied on the converter again. Thank you for your advice though. Endlessly replacing parts as they break each other over and over is the main reason I've taken to the forums, it's a worry that it seems is legitimate.
 
AGM batteries are flooded lead acid batteries, they use a fiberglass mat to insulate the cells. Load testing a battery while it's being charged is not an accurate reading. My advise as previously stafted is still my advice.
 
The 12V flow from the converter to the batteries is pretty straight forward. As others have pointed out, here are the places to look. All connections should have 13.5 +/- Volts if the converter is working.


  • The converter is part of the power distribution panel -Ensure the CB for it is On
  • There are Reverse Polarity Fuses on the converter which protect against connecting a battery backwards. - Ensure they are not blown.
  • Check the output voltage at the converter. - it should be in the 13.5V DC range.
  • The power then runs to the Disconnect Switch in the Convenience Center. - Ensure the Red Key is in the position where it can *NOT* be removed. If removed, this interrupts the power charging the battery. The Disconnect Switch is not known to fail, but you can remove it to check there is power in and out of it just to be sure.
  • The power next flows to the group of 50 amp self-resetting CBs behind the battery. We all know about the one that hiccups and interrupts the hydraulic system. That one also passes power to/from the converter and batteries. You want to check it and it's brother (it is in the current flow to the battery) to ensure there is 13.5V on *EACH* side of the CB.
  • The last connection is the one from the 50 amp CBs to the batteries. Ensure you have clean connections and the cables are not corroded (watch out for internal corrosion under the shrink wrap).
Somewhere along this path there will be the problem. A simple VOM should find it. I hope this helps.

The most common causes are :
o - the Battery Disconnect Switch in the convenience center is in the wrong position (the Red Key should be in the position where it can't be removed)
o - The red plastic covered self resetting 50 amp circuit breakers behind the battery have failed.
 
Ooooh thank you this helps a lot. If it wasn't a converter issue I was nervous about doing much more myself because I had no idea where to start with the path in between the batteries and the converter. I'll do a quick rundown of what I have checked so far.

I have checked the breaker box and none were flipped. I have accessed behind the circuit breaker and fusebox to check the socket the converter plugs into and confirmed it is giving 120V of power.

I have checked both fuses in the converter and both are intact.

The output at the converter itself measuring the cables connected to it directly was 12.9 yesterday and dropped to 12.4 when the furnace fan turned on. Did not recheck this morning at the converter but in general the converter would read lower than the battery (12.6 when the furnace fan was on) and the battery was at 12.3 this morning.

When I was doing research I started to learn about the disconnect switch. It's supposed to be used when the RV is not being used to ensure the batteries aren't under any draw that would damage then while idle correct? I have not located that in my rv yet. That will be my next goal.

The 50 amp circuit breakers you mention I think I may know where they are. When looking around the battery compartment I followed the cables to try and understand where they went and where they might go beyond the wall and noticed a small circuit board area that also had several wires with inline fuses connected to it. Would this be where the cbs you mentioned are? If so I'll add those to my list to investigate after I get the battery checked.
 
Ooooh thank you this helps a lot. If it wasn't a converter issue I was nervous about doing much more myself because I had no idea where to start with the path in between the batteries and the converter. I'll do a quick rundown of what I have checked so far.

I have checked the breaker box and none were flipped. I have accessed behind the circuit breaker and fusebox to check the socket the converter plugs into and confirmed it is giving 120V of power.

I have checked both fuses in the converter and both are intact.

The output at the converter itself measuring the cables connected to it directly was 12.9 yesterday and dropped to 12.4 when the furnace fan turned on. Did not recheck this morning at the converter but in general the converter would read lower than the battery (12.6 when the furnace fan was on) and the battery was at 12.3 this morning.

When I was doing research I started to learn about the disconnect switch. It's supposed to be used when the RV is not being used to ensure the batteries aren't under any draw that would damage then while idle correct? I have not located that in my rv yet. That will be my next goal.

The 50 amp circuit breakers you mention I think I may know where they are. When looking around the battery compartment I followed the cables to try and understand where they went and where they might go beyond the wall and noticed a small circuit board area that also had several wires with inline fuses connected to it. Would this be where the cbs you mentioned are? If so I'll add those to my list to investigate after I get the battery checked.

Simply stated, if your converter is not putting out 13.5-13.6v DC, then the converter is bad.
 
The first mistake almost everyone makes with a WFCO converter troubleshooting is that they take measurements with the battery connected...

YOU CAN'T DO THAT !!!!! The converter monitor circuit controls converter output based on the battery voltage to the converter. So, if you read the WFCO troubleshooting steps, step #1 is "DISCONNECT THE BATTERY BEFORE PROCEEDING"....

Also, if you have any "outside battery charger" connected to the battery, you effectively disconnect the WFCO converter/charger at the "charge monitor circuit inside the converter"...

WFCO designed the converter to be the "only charge source" and the WFCO chargers don't play well with any other charger connected to the battery.

Now, that said, if you go to: https://www.wfcotech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/WF-8900-Power-Center-Series-Manual.pdf On page 7 of that manual, the FIRST troubleshooting step is: " Converter Output Voltage Before checking the WF-8900 Series Power Center output voltage, disconnect the battery cables at the battery.

If you start the troubleshooting "any other way" you have pretty much set up yourself for incorrect readings and incorrect outcomes....

All that said, if you previously measured your battery voltage at 8VDC, then your battery is probably damaged beyond repair. Depending on what your WFCO troubleshooting steps reveal, I would believe that would mean a "Converter AND battery replacement" if you hope to get back to normal operation.
 
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Oh thank you! The first response was a bit of emergency troubleshooting before I even fully understood the converter and it's roll in keeping our battery functioning. I'll definitely try and look up proper procedures in the manual from now on to keep from doing more damage than good.

Before I did anything beyond take measurements that first night I did disconnect the cables from the battery so I could measure only what was coming from the converter without interference from the battery. I'm glad that seems to be the proper way to do it. It was around 8V at the time which is what started me suspecting the converter.
 
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...The output at the converter itself measuring the cables connected to it directly was 12.9 yesterday and dropped to 12.4 when the furnace fan turned on. ....
As mentioned above, 12.9 is not a good number. The WFCO converter in your High Country is different from the Progressive Dynamics converters in the regular Montana and has a different protocol for checking its output voltage.

When I was doing research I started to learn about the disconnect switch. It's supposed to be used when the RV is not being used to ensure the batteries aren't under any draw that would damage then while idle correct? I have not located that in my rv yet. That will be my next goal.
The disconnect switch system depends on the year of your RV. New Montanas use a Giggy box that has a true battery disconnect switch. Older Montanas use a Red Key switch in the convenience center. The Red Key switch does *NOT* disconnect all of the 12V parasitic draws. It will only take a week or two of inactivity and the battery will be drained. The solution is a disconnect switch on the negative battery pole.

The 50 amp circuit breakers you mention I think I may know where they are....
Those 50 amp 12V self resetting circuit breakers are easily identified by their red plastic caps
51y7N6VNFqL._SL1000_.jpg
 
Since you are probably going to replace both battery and converter, this is a good time to look at possibly switching to a lithium battery with a converter that is designed for either lithium charging or lead acid. Lithium is a bigger up front cost but over time is more economical than lead acid, at about 1/3 the weight. The cost for lithium batteries continues to come down so the difference between the two is not what it used to be. Most new converters are dual battery type but check and confirm. If you are going to spend a lot of time or live in this RV, lithium is the way to go IMO.. At the very least make sure the new converter will charge both lithium and lead acid battery. You can switch to lithium later. You want a true deep cycle battery. Sounds like you have a marine battery that is NOT a true deep cycle battery. If it lists CCA, that is cold cranking amps and a true deep cycle battery does not have CCA. As others have said, you only gat 50 amp hours out of 100 amp hour lead acid battery. If you discharge more than 50 amps you damage the lead acid battery.You get at least 80 amp hours out of a 100 amp lithium battery, and lasts far longer than lead acid battery. Study up on lithium batteries before you purchase another lead acid battery, then you can make an informed decision. Good luck.
 
Must have electrical tools

Found this post and responses very interesting. As a new fifth wheel owner feeling a little overwhelmed by all I am learning I don’t know. Question. . . if I am very likely to experience electrical problems with the fifth wheel over time, what must have meters, tools and electrical parts should I carry on board? Appreciate any recommendations. Thank you.
 
Found this post and responses very interesting. As a new fifth wheel owner feeling a little overwhelmed by all I am learning I don’t know. Question. . . if I am very likely to experience electrical problems with the fifth wheel over time, what must have meters, tools and electrical parts should I carry on board? Appreciate any recommendations. Thank you.

Hopefully, you will not have problems. As far as tools, you want at least your basic tools you would have in your tool box. A decent multi meter, some wire connector assortment, power tester for 12v, and maybe a roll of 12v wire. I carry cordless drill, driver, circular saw, screw driver, and oscillating multi tool when I’m on a trip. You want an assortment of fuses that fit the amperage in your rig.
One thing that is a MUST HAVE is a PMS (power management system), post plug, or hard wired in your rig, NOT just a surge protector. Mine has saved my bacon a couple times. I use one that plugs into the AC power post. I’m sure others will have suggestions but that’s the basics.
 

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