5th wheel pulling doubles or bed ramp/rack & bumper pull to haul a side by side?

[Fallon]

Looking to hear people's experience about towing a bumper pull with a side by side on a rack over the bed/cab or pulling a medium/small 5th wheel with a double trailer (2,000lbs of side by side).

We mostly dry camp. No campground or hookups. Just head out to the woods for a long weekend. We don't want to take the camper offroading, but some of the dirt roads aren't great. We are planning on some longer multi-week trips to national parks & what not that would likely be normal campgrounds as well. Just me, the wife, the 45lbs dog & in some cases the cat. We have a 2 seater Artic Cat SxS toy that weighs around 1,400lbs.

2014 F350 double cab short bed (6.5') & PowerStroke. Weighs around 9,400lbs with toolbox & normal gear load for traveling, camping, etc. Thinking about pulling the bed & putting an aluminum flatbed on in many scenarios so I can toss a tractor implement on. I need a skirted one with built in toolboxes under the deck to replace the bed box I have now that would block a ramp or 5th wheel hitch..

Former option: 17' Casita, 3,500lbs. Towed well with my former Toyota Tacoma. I could have towed it without wheels on at freeway speeds well with the F350. It was too small for us to live in & a F350 powerstroke not being appropriate for keeping up on trails with friends lead to getting the SxS.

22' flat deck trailer (4klbs) & 8klbs of tractor & implements, 12klbs total (Same as the Carbon 35). 1,000-1500lbs tongue weight according to the WeighSafe hitch, no WDH or sway control. Load varies depending if it's my tractor or somebody else's or how many implements. Tows down the highway at 75 & have it 80 (usually keep it under 70 though) with no issues as long as I balanced it right with the WeighSafe hitch. Feels solid & well behaved. Irrelevant for camping, although I could in theory haul the SxS on it. Baseline for what the truck can tow well that I keep comparing the campers to that weight equal or less. F350 needed to haul this setup for my side job doing tractor work.

Current setup:
35' Carbon 35 bumper pull. 12klbs loaded, 1,500lbs tongue weight (with toy in the back, excessive tongue weight without), Blue Ox WDH & sway control. All axle, hitch , GVWR & other weights in spec as per Cat scales. Very twitchy over 65mph & not super pleasant to tow. I'm wiped out after 4-5 hours of towing so really won't take it out of Colorado, or even longer in-state trips. As we've found out, it's generally too big for our uses, even if it towed well. Its length means any little hill get uncomfortably close to the plumbing hanging low in the middle. Difficult to maneuver even with lots of room & won't fit in may campsites or off-grid locations

Pro:

• Hauls toy
• Big enough to live in for longer trips
• 2 slides make it nice & roomy in kitchen/living area
• Sleeps 7+ (only 2 of us + 1-2 pets though)

Con:

• Unpleasant to tow above 65 & can be a bit twitch at 65
• Unpleasant to maneuver due to excessive length, impossible to fit in many places
• We never use the 12' of garage other than for the toy (queen bunk beds there are useless), very occasionally for guests
• Length makes dirt roads & uneven stuff problematic for the plumbing
• Max rated tongue weight for the truck if the toy is loaded & WDH is on (otherwise it exceeds tongue weight ratings

Possible option 1:
SxS bed rack
Replace 35' toy hauler with 25' bumper pull trailer around 6-7klbs

Has anybody hauled a setup like this? Looking to get the SxS camping & get a camper that is nicer to tow. Does the balance with a 2 seater SxS on a bed rack & "half ton towable" type trailer work out for a 1 ton SRW truck? I can definitely crunch the numbers, but there are a lot more unknowns with this setup than I can easily calculate compared to normal trailer weights (even considering most dealer weights are lies).

I think I will be close on the rear axle ratings with about 2,000lbs of side by side & ramp plus 5-700lbs or tongue weight. But a WDH will help shift some of the weight up front.

Pro:

• Towing a "1/2 ton towable" trailer with a 1 ton will be a breeze
• Can easily load up the toy on the truck if I can't drive it to a trailhead in camp
• Could fit a 4 seater SxS on the ramp of we upgraded from our 2

Con:

• Some effort required to load the toy on a steep ramp
• May be a bit heavy combining toy weight & hitch weight

Option 2:
25-26' 5th wheel non-toy hauler with a decent frame & a small aluminum trailer for the toy & pull doubles. Doubles are legal in Colorado & we probably won't be looking at hauling the toy out of state.

Pro:

• Tows well & no sway issues (without the double for sure)
• Can detach the toy & trailer for extra maneuverability if needed

Con:

• Towing doubles can be complex & long
• Towing double outside of Colorado will be limited

Options we have considered but probably don't meet our needs.

24-26' bumper pull toy hauler

Pro:

• Lighter & should be easier to haul than the 35' Carbon
• Less length for maneuverability & dragging plumbing over bumps

Con:

• Possible gas/exhaust fume issues that sometimes give the wife migraines (probably a deal killer, but well have to see)
• Possible balance issues towing empty

Gooseneck horse trailer based toy hauler

Pros:

• 5th wheel/gooseneck doesn't sway
• Not that tall
• Aluminum frame is likely to last better

Cons:

• Low ride height will leave use with dragging issues on dirt roads
• Expensive
• Interior finish quality is as cheap as every other RV
• Low roof in master bed area (not horrible, but inconvenient)

5th wheel toy hauler
Pros:

• Tows well

Cons:

• Typically huge (tall, long & heavy)
• Less maneuverable than the current Carbon due to length
• May run into issues with not being able to isolate fumes if we find a smaller one
• Probable balance issues without hauling the toy

Class C motorhome & trailer for the toy

Con:

• Another engine to maintain
• Expensive to buy another engine
• Probably weaker than the F350 powerstroke
• Possible ground clearance issues
• Need a lifeboat to get away from campsite & toy isn't road legal

Bed camper + toy trailer

Con:

• Smaller than our 17' Casita at best & that was to small

 

[bsmith0404]

Another con to the class c is the fact that you don’t have a regular vehicle to drive to go sight seeing, run to town for supplies etc.

I’ve been triple towing for years with a 39’ 5th wheel. I have both a 10’ utility trailer and a swivel wheel trailer that I can haul out 2 seat RZR trail. It can get long and you have to be careful. The swivel wheel is shorter, but has a huge tail swing. I guess because I’ve been doing it for so many years, I would go with that option. Finding a 25-26’ 5th wheel is tough, not many manufacturers make them that small. A 28-32’ would be a little easier. In most states you’re limited to 65’ total length, anything under 35’ with a 10’ trailer should keep you under 65’. Most states out west alllow triple, the majority of states that don’t are east coast, so that won’t be much of an issue for you.

 

[Fallon]

Ya, the lack of road legal transport without the whole shebang is definitely on the list, just didn't make the list I wrote down. Similar issue now if we want to take the toy to a trailhead not in the campground as it's not road legal & we'd have to put it in the toy hauler.

 

[bsmith0404]

Ya, the lack of road legal transport without the whole shebang is definitely on the list, just didn't make the list I wrote down. Similar issue now if we want to take the toy to a trailhead not in the campground as it's not road legal & we'd have to put it in the toy hauler.

That’s another pro to having a trailer. I’ve seen those racks that allow the UTV to be loaded up over the cab, I don’t think I’d feel comfortable with one. As I mentioned before, any 5er 35’ or less would keep you under 65’ total with a 10’ trailer. If you are down around 30’ on the 5er, you could even go to a 14’ trailer if you decide to go to a 4 seater. Not sure if any of the other options will allow that. Even toy haulers with a 13’ garage are rare under 39-40’.

 

[Notanlines]

What Brent said, although rule out California, Oregon and Washington. Every now and then a list will include Oregon as triple-tow friendly, but technically it isn't. And, as he said, any state east of Ohio is out of the picture, including Alabama.

 

[Rhagfo]

What Brent said, although rule out California, Oregon and Washington. Every now and then a list will include Oregon as triple-tow friendly, but technically it isn't. And, as he said, any state east of Ohio is out of the picture, including Alabama.

Likely because semis can tow triple trailers on the interstates.

 

[Fallon]

What Brent said, although rule out California, Oregon and Washington. Every now and then a list will include Oregon as triple-tow friendly, but technically it isn't. And, as he said, any state east of Ohio is out of the picture, including Alabama.

I grew up in Oregon & am likely to haul the trailer back that way. But not likely to take the toy. In general we aren't likely to try & take the side by side out of Colorado or Utah. So I'm likely fine with a solution that tows pretty OK when hauling the toy for up to hours or so but gets us tows great on really long trips.

I'm assuming towing doubles or putting a rack on the truck won't be a perfect towing experience. Im just trying to figure out if either option will be noticably better than the to long of a bumper pull we have now.

We went & checked out a pile of dealers with shorter 5th wheels & bumper pulls. Lots cool stuff & things to think about. But still rather lost & confuse as to what path to go down.

 

[JRTJH]

When checking out "shorter fifth wheels and bumper pulls" remember that most of them will be "ultra-light" or "half ton" type trailers. Many of them have "light weight frames" that simply won't stand up to the added weight of a second trailer. And, to add "insult to injury", there's a new technology frame under many of the "less than robust" light weight trailers. The BAL NXG frame is a "stamped steel frame held together with huk-bolts". Many of them are specifically designed to support the trailer box and not much more than that....
https://balrvproducts.com/product/nxg-frame/

So, if you're looking at "shorter fifth wheels and little bumper pulls", make darn sure you crawl under the trailer and see if it has an adequate box frame that can adapt to a hitch receiver or if it's a frame built to "bare minimums and can hardle support the trailer on top of it.....

As cars and trucks get lighter, the technology of making trailers they can pull has eliminated much (if not most) of the reserve capacity that used to be taken for granted.....

 

[bsmith0404]

If you decide to pull a trailer behind, don’t get a bumper pull. It “can” be done, but then you run into additional restrictions. Some states that allow triple tow, only allow it with a 5th wheel. Grand Design has a couple nice floor plans in the 150 series that are shorter, and come with a receiver rated for 3000 lb tow and 4 pin wiring harness. I believe Cougar has a couple as well. I will say I’ve towed the trailer behind my 5er for some long trips (over 1000 miles one way), don’t even know it’s back there, literally, you can’t see it. If you decide to do it, install an observation camera to keep eyes on it and add TPMS to the trailer as well. I have 6 sensors for my TST 507 and install them on the 5er and trailer/swivel wheel.

 

[Fallon]

If you decide to pull a trailer behind, don’t get a bumper pull. It “can” be done, but then you run into additional restrictions. Some states that allow triple tow, only allow it with a 5th wheel. Grand Design has a couple nice floor plans in the 150 series that are shorter, and come with a receiver rated for 3000 lb tow and 4 pin wiring harness. I believe Cougar has a couple as well. I will say I’ve towed the trailer behind my 5er for some long trips (over 1000 miles one way), don’t even know it’s back there, literally, you can’t see it. If you decide to do it, install an observation camera to keep eyes on it and add TPMS to the trailer as well. I have 6 sensors for my TST 507 and install them on the 5er and trailer/swivel wheel.

It would be 5th wheel + small 2nd trailer for the toy. Or a ramp to put the toy on the truck & a 25' or smaller bumper pull.

I'm not aware of any states that permit doubles with a bumper pull. Even if they did I wouldn't. My current 35' has shown me the length limits of a bumper pull even if I'm within the weight limits.

I am slightly concerned that a smaller bumper pull with 600lbs of hitch weigh or so will give me similar behavior when I toss 2,000lbs of toy & rack in the bed. I've got around 3,000lbs of payload capacity so I'd be within spec. But I'm withing all the axle GVWR, GCWR & everything else with the 35' & it doesn't tow great.

I can easily take a vehicle for a test drive, but apparently dealers no longer let you take a trailer for a test yow. Much less test tow something pulling doubles. So I'm stuck hitting up forums or often ignorant sales guys for opinions. Frustrating as my brain works best when I can lay hands on something & operate it myself.

I did look at the GD 226RK & 260RD. Nice looking trailers that are near the top of my list if I go that way. Artic Wolf & a few others were out there as well. Not as nice, but a bit cheaper as you'd expect. Several had 3k hitches with a 4 pin. I could add my own hitch, but really am only looking at OEM 3k hitch setups to ensure the rest of the frame is up to the task.

 

[wiredgeorge]

There is an art to towing this way...

 

[JRTJH]

Montana and Idaho do allow double trailers with the first trailer not a fifth wheel. I believe Nebraska and the Dakotas do as well, but you'd have to verify that, don't take my word for it. I took these photos while on a trip to Craters of the Moon NP as there was a discussion on this forum about "I've never seen anybody towing a boat with a bumper pull trailer and I don't think it's even legal anywhere."...

Well, it is legal and some people do it...

As for only looking at trailers with an installed receiver, be sure to double check. Some trailers (Cougar in particular) in past years were rated ONLY FOR A CARGO CARRIER and not for towing.... I'm not real sure how you differentiate what's rated for towing and what's only rated for a cargo rack... But there is a difference, so be sure to check that... Some say, if it has a 4 pin connector, it's rated for towing (but owners and dealers can easily add that to any trailer) and some say, "If it is rated for towing, it'll have a decal" but I've seen many, MANY decals fall off trailers before they are ever sold, so .....

Here's the pictures from Rigby, ID from several years ago

 

[bsmith0404]

When the manufacturers started working with Lippert to approve towing they changed the hitch on the back. An easy way to tell the difference, the ones rated for carrying cargo, but not towing don’t have the spot for hooking safety chains, the ones approved for towing do.

Yes there are a few states that allow triples with a bumper pull, biggest requirement is the first trailer must be heavier than the second.

I think you’ve answered a lot of your own questions. If you’re main concern is how a 5th wheel would handle with another trailer behind it, I’ve done it with multiple 5th wheels from 30-40’ and didn’t notice any difference with any of them. You’re only adding a couple hundred lbs of hitch weight to the back, that probably only changes pin weight by less than 100 lbs. not enough to change the characteristics of towing a 5th wheel which is already much better than a bumper pull anyway.

 

[jasin1]

a video popped up on my feed today about a fifth wheel rolling over while towing a boat …i did a search and another one happened last year and the fifth wheel ended up in a million pieces…i was thinking about it for my jet ski …i didn’t realize you could get trailer sway in the second trailer bad enough that to take out the fifth wheel …i think i’m gonna just get a toy hauler one day in the future

 

[bsmith0404]

a video popped up on my feed today about a fifth wheel rolling over while towing a boat …i did a search and another one happened last year and the fifth wheel ended up in a million pieces…i was thinking about it for my jet ski …i didn’t realize you could get trailer sway in the second trailer bad enough that to take out the fifth wheel …i think i’m gonna just get a toy hauler one day in the future

I don’t think the trailer was the problem. My guess is cross winds and speed. My dad had a nut come loose in the hitch for his boat (thing was rusted on so bad after 15 years you couldn’t have removed it if you tried, but it came lose while towing, we now spot weld all of them). He said he felt a little tug, but couldn’t figure out what it was until he saw the boat swinging around in his mirror. You can’t get much more/worse trailer sway than a 17’ boat swinging on just the safety chains far enough to see it in your mirrors on each side of the 5er at 65 mph, and all he felt was a little tug. I definitely wouldn’t be concerned with the weight of a jet ski.

 

[Fallon]

https://youtu.be/6mW_gzdh6to is always the key factor for sway. You should always be able to control proper trailer balance. There are other factors that can cause it, but balance is the big one. It's a frustrating factor with my toy hauler. I can't tow it without a toy in the back as it causes very excessive tongue weight.

 

[Notanlines]

" I can't tow it without a toy in the back as it causes very excessive tongue weight."
Devin, with a 40' Raptor and a HD Road King and HD side car in the cargo area versus an empty cargo area the difference in tongue weight was about 135 pounds, CAT scale weight. We've covered this many times on this forum in the past. Bike and sidecar weight 1,060 pounds.
Re-read what Brent said. The full cargo area won't be the difference you believe.

 

[bsmith0404]

https://youtu.be/6mW_gzdh6to is always the key factor for sway. You should always be able to control proper trailer balance. There are other factors that can cause it, but balance is the big one. It's a frustrating factor with my toy hauler. I can't tow it without a toy in the back as it causes very excessive tongue weight.

As mentioned, I’d like to see actual scale weights to show the difference between loaded and unloaded pin weights. Adding items to the garage of a toy hauler does very little to change the actual tongue weight. I’ve mentioned this before, but think of a teeter totter. If you have one pivot point, adding equal weight, equal distance will balance the two ends. As soon as you start moving the weight on one side closer to the pivot point, the side further away has more effect and will cause that side to drop. If you add a second or third pivot point (axles) change in weight (amount or position) has less effect on the other side. Toy haulers are built nose heavy because of weight that will be added to the garage and fuel stations, but what that does is keeps the pin weight percentage in check with total weight. Yes, some weight is removed, but I doubt it’s as much as you think.

 

[jsb5717]

Pickup towing doubles in Oregon

FWIW I found this buried in Oregon DOT docs. I haven't investigated further to see what other rules also come into play such as total overall length or weight or whether some version of a CDL is required. This doesn't say much at all except that with a couple limitations it appears that it can be done.

 

[Fallon]

As mentioned, I’d like to see actual scale weights to show the difference between loaded and unloaded pin weights. Adding items to the garage of a toy hauler does very little to change the actual tongue weight. I’ve mentioned this before, but think of a teeter totter. If you have one pivot point, adding equal weight, equal distance will balance the two ends. As soon as you start moving the weight on one side closer to the pivot point, the side further away has more effect and will cause that side to drop. If you add a second or third pivot point (axles) change in weight (amount or position) has less effect on the other side. Toy haulers are built nose heavy because of weight that will be added to the garage and fuel stations, but what that does is keeps the pin weight percentage in check with total weight. Yes, some weight is removed, but I doubt it’s as much as you think.

I have a weigh safe hitch...

Truck + trailer (no UTV)
Weigh Safe hitch - hitch weight 1,950lbs & 29" rear bumper height
Truck + trailer + UTV (facing forward)
Weigh Safe hitch - hitch weight 1,500lbs & 29.5" reat bumper height

Hitch is rated to 1,500lbs with a WDH. So I'm 450 lbs over without the toy in the back. Front is about a half inch higher with no WDH hooked up & the rear about half an inch lower.

I'm guessing other toy haulers you can pull farther forward into the kitchen may have better axle placement. But the dedicated garage on my bumper pull Catbon 35 means all that weight is way fat back & needed to ballance.

The further mass is from a fulcrum, the more momentum it can get. In the treadmill demos, putting weight near the axles (with proper tongue weight) leads to less fishtailing than the sane weight at the ends of the trailer (again with proper tongue weight).