2025 Cougar Changes Significantly Reduce Value?

Kaylodad

Kaylodad

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Sep 25, 2020
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Just watched a 2024-2025 MLS comparison from A Tale of Three Cabins.

Seems like Keystone is significantly reducing features (to save money?) without a compensating reduction in price. We really like our 22 25RDS but the changes have created second thoughts about an upgrade in 2025/6.

Propane tanks reduced to 2x20Gal
InCommand taken out and replaced with analog panel = not being able to put slides/awning/stabilizer out, manage temp or lights with phone.
Radio removed so no over the air news/sports/music

I'm curious if the community sees these changes as anything more than a cost cutting value reduction.
 
These things don't surprise me however on this site the removal of the In Command to some is the best thing since under ware were invented. Several swear at In Command instead of swearing by it. I understand this is why it was removed. I am not in that camp. I love the convenience of it and the technology doesn't scare me. If it craps out and I can't get replacement parts I will remove it and replace it with relays and switches.

Everything else was likely done so they could be added as upgrades. It's sad and maybe time to look at another manufacturer.
 
I think it is simply “shrink-flation”. Like when a bag of chips shrinks by an ounce or two but the price and package size remain unchanged.

On my Cougar, I was happy it didn’t have InCommand when I ordered, not because I don’t like tech stuff, but simply because it adds unnecessary complexity and weakness to something that should be so simple. I can still level my 5th wheel, operate the heat and AC, monitor my solar power system, monitor my batteries, and RV power status all from my iPhone.

In exchange, I get a lot of other features I do want, like antilock brakes, great OEM tires, comfortable furniture and in the 2025 models you also get HyperCore walls, which is well-worth exchanging for InCommand!
 
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Just my opinion/ the loss of InCommand is a positive move.

I have seen numerous “systems” including, Aladdin, spyder, Jayco’s proprietary system. The only one that seems to continually have issues is InCommand.

Shrink flation is alive and well, but again only MY OPINION, losing InCommand isn’t a bad thing.
 
I wonder why these manufacturers feel like they have to go proprietary on something like this? They end up in a business that they know nothing about and ultimately have to regress in technology which is really bad for business. I haven't looked at the specifics but I don't see any reason something like a Allen-Bradley Micrologics PLC wouldn't work just fine in an application like this.
 
It’s about cost and control. Keystone cut a deal with ASA and I am sure they somehow scratch each others back in ways we can only guess.

My company made a choice 20 years ago to go with a proprietary in-house software system for a major business application as opposed to an off the shelf version. After 12 years of nightmares and untold millions of dollars they decided it wasn’t a good choice and they scraped it and went with a commercially available system that we can customize and have proper tech support. I think this is where Keystone is at now. I wouldn’t be surprised if a new and improved system starts showing up in another year or two.
 
I may come up with a conversion using an off the shelf PLC so that anyone that is capable could replace the In Command. I need to do some research but the only thing that is an issue is the CAN bus for the HVAC units and how to network them.
 
Paint me spoiled.....I would never get another trailer where I wouldn't have an app to control things (at least some things) from my phone.
For now, I don't see us anytime in the future trading anyway, but you just never know!
:whistling:
 
NH_Bulldog - without InCommand what tech do you use to remotely manage all those features?
 
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Kaylodad said:
Just watched a 2024-2025 MLS comparison from A Tale of Three Cabins.

Seems like Keystone is significantly reducing features (to save money?) without a compensating reduction in price. We really like our 22 25RDS but the changes have created second thoughts about an upgrade in 2025/6.

Propane tanks reduced to 2x20Gal
InCommand taken out and replaced with analog panel = not being able to put slides/awning/stabilizer out, manage temp or lights with phone.
Radio removed so no over the air news/sports/music

I'm curious if the community sees these changes as anything more than a cost cutting value reduction.
Click to expand...
I took a Cougar factory tour last summer and the rep. leading it said (paraphrasing) that Cougar was abandoning InCommand because of the large number of problems/complaints they received about it.

The propane reduction is a bummer but not a deal breaker. A 30# tank is typically only 6-7 inches taller so, if there is room, a replacement would be easy. I do not see it as a cost cutting value reduction, but simply an acknowledgement of how today's RV's are typically outfitted and used. 12V refrigerators are becoming the norm. Most do not "camp" in really cold weather. The vast majority of "campers" seldom boondock and are almost always hooked up to shore power. All of which significantly reduces the amount of propane needed by the "average" camper.

The radio? I have camped next to enough socially ignorant people that blast their neighbors out with their music and p*ss everybody else off that I can say, "Gawd, I'm glad to hear that." I wish the next thing they would stop offering are outside televisions.
 
I’d be happy to skip the incommand…not that big of a convenience to me knowing its gonna become obsolete one day in the future…..as far as the propane tanks i imaging that lets them reduce the tongue weight of the trailer in advertising.

I wouldnt care about the radio because they are some of the cheapest radio speaker combinations i’ve ever seen…most people with an ear for fidelity change out the speakers for something of better quality…..and bluetooth speakers are a good substitute but i cant stand hearing someone at a campground playing music outside …..went hiking in Harpers Ferry once and someone had a bluetooth speaker blaring music thru the woods ahead of us….obnoxious

I love music but i have a really nice home stereo system and a great system in my truck that i listen to…not around the picnic table disrupting everyone’s peace and quiet

The same people that do this are the ones on a speakerphone in public
 
On this and many other RV forums, that In-Command system is a horrible headache, causes many problems, and fails. Folks are frustrated and apparently, getting assistance is just as frustrating.

If I were in the market for a new camper, I would decline any unit if it had the In-Command system. Too much technology is just that ... too much! It's another VERY expensive system to get fix once it fails. And IT WILL fail eventually. Nothing is built to last forever. Nothing.
 
Before we bought our Cougar, we were looking at a Forest River Cherokee Wolf Pack 321BH which is the same as the Cougar 32BHS, except about $5,000 less cost. The Forest River had no exterior ladder, no TV, no radio, 20lb. propane tanks, cheap tires, only 100w of solar, no cushioned Road Armor equalizers, and no antilock brakes. Oh, but it did have a central vac lol. Aside from all that it looked and felt “cheap”.

As far as propane tanks, when we had our Passport, we would use one full 20 lb. tank per camping season on average. I had considered upgrading to 30 lb. tanks, but the added weight on the tongue was more than I was comfortable with, and besides, we knew our usage would never exhaust two tanks, even with running the fridge on gas and using the outdoor kitchen, plus the Blackstone and NexGrill. When we bought the Cougar, the only thing that changed was we had a 12v DC fridge and not surprisingly, we camped all season (on and off grid), still using the outdoor kitchen, Blackstone and NexGrill and never exhausted even one of the two 30lb. tanks. I am not concerned about weight at this point, but I know I can easily shed a few lbs. by dropping in a pair of 20 lb. tanks and still be fine.
 
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As for "Why InCommand" ??? Here's my take, for what it's worth:

Everything in the RV industry is an attempt to "consolidate sales by having the only one available with a specific feature"... It started years ago with 12 volt lights and self containment, progressed through to years and just about 5 years ago, Jayco announced "Goodyear Endurance tires on EVERY trailer"... Keystone announced "big screen TV's in every trailer"... Forest River announced "mood lighting on the range knobs" and the list goes on and on...

Enter Keystone's "future plans" (back in 2017: Solar systems on every trailer, phone connected trailer control systems that will progress to tow vehicle/trailer/phone control systems... Solar is still "working out and demand is growing"... GM pulled out of the ASA/Keystone "control interface" (I question if RAM/Ford are laughing about the attempt, even though they were left out of the initial introduction)...

It's the same with every manufacturer. Think back to the introduction of the 6.7L diesel in 2011. Ford reflashed every 2011 truck to increase the HP/torque when GM announced the 6.6L DuraMax performance specs. Then there's the in bed fifth wheel hitch systems:... Next came small V-6 turbocharged engines intended to replace the fuel hungry V-8's and then the introduction of the aluminum bed/body trucks (that GM advertised against by dropping tool boxes and now use aluminum in their own trucks), then the "joint venture 10 speed transmission between Ford and GM" that GM got "certified by Allison" for the GM version...

In almost every industry, competition is healthy and manufacturers are always striving to be the "first with the latest and greatest"....

Keystone/ASA and the InCommand system is just one more step in the "RV industry growing pains"....

Think back to when many maybe even most trailers had a 75 pound icebox with a "drip drain" through the floor... Try to even find one of those iceboxes now that we've gone through absorption refrigerators, residential refrigerators and now on to 12VDC compressor refrigerators, powered by lithium batteries that are kept charged by solar panels on the roof...

All of which came from "the quest for being the first with the latest feature"..... Some worked out, some failed miserably, some disappeared, only to return later with a "new and improved version"...

What's "a solid guarantee" in the RV industry is that next year we'll see things that only the design staff and engineering staff dream up and put into reality.... Giggy Box anyone ???
 
I have incommand but wish i would have did a little more research when i was rv shopping back in 2020…If i keep this fifth wheel i imagine one day i will be rewiring it with a surplus convenience center switch panel and using the incommand bcm location as a junction box.

As far as a remote control or an app i can do like everyone else did for the decades before incommand …. “Hey Hon can you open the awning while i make sure it doesn’t hit any branches?”

My fifth wheel is made up of thin walls with minimal insulation…i can communicate with my wife from outside by just talking with a raised voice..a pair of two way radios would make it easier.

The only remote i really care about is the TV remote
 
This thread is giving me a little snicker because of the “why no Incommand?” “Because it’s awful” “but I want the features”.

Back in 2019 or so when Alliance was starting up they went to their future (hopefully) customers online and asked what features does everyone want/ do not want. Overwhelmingly, the incommand control of everything was a “do NOT want”. There were enough people out there who had dealt with the frustration of it or just had read about everyone else’s frustration that no one wanted it in the new campers. Alliance listened and they do not have anything like it - most people very happy about that. But, there are a few on the group who ask the question - why no incommand? They get an explanation from others real quick. Me? I’m just happy we didn’t have anything like it in our Cougar, or in the current camper. One camping trip we were trying to help my BIL figure his out in his Momentum and that was enough of a headache that DH and I both said absolutely never!
 
FYI…momentum is a Grand designs product that uses Lipperts One Control, not InCommand. I had just about no issues with that system for the 5 yrs I worked at a GD dealer, left just before COVID, so things may have changed.
 
Adios InCommand.....great move. Now dump that thankless tankless water heater.

Ken
 
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