178RB Hideout has been a nightmare

[GregPLV]

I have a 2024 178RB Hideout.

On our second camping tripthe weather was quite warm so I tried to turn on the wall air conditioner. the fan blew but the compressor never kicked on. Inside the trailer was 87 degrees. I worked through the settings and found that I was set properly. This was confirmed with the people who were on the trip with us. COntinuing to need air conditioing, I measured the unit and through the internet found a replacement to fit the hole. I purchased the unit, installed it in the hole and plugged it in. We then had working air conditioning. When I called Keystone after our return, I spoke to "customer service". They reviewed my actions and said because I hadn't followed their protocol, they would not repay me for the new air conditioner I purchased. They said I should have called them and they would have sent a service vehicle out in a couple of days. I sent them a receipt for the aircinditioner I had to purchase and was told they would likely not cover the cost.
We have had shower issues as well. With a tankless water heater we have hot water to the sinks but if we use the shower the water will not trigger the water heater to heat. The control panel is in the bathroom so I turned on the hot water in the sink(using city water input) and the temperature went to our set point. I turn on the shower, the heater never turns on. I left the water running in the sink then turned on the shower, I then had hot water from the hot water valve. Whether I use the water pump or city water I can not get reliable hot water in the shower.
I am at my wits end. Keystone wants me to make an appointment for the dealer service, have them diagnose the problem, report it to Keystone, and they will decide if they will cover the fix.
Keystone customer service on either call I made, explained how they could get out of paying for the repairs needed, if I got my trailer to the dealer and went at risk to be stuck with the bill for defencies in their product. I have made 5 trips with this trailer and have yet to have a trouble free trip.

 

[jasin1]

Yeah i don’t blame keystone with that one…probably nothing wrong with the original ac unit other then a loose wire or something like that…unfortunately the process is to go to the dealer and have them confirm if something is a warranty issue or not…for every one person that has a legitimate warranty problem there are 10 that broke or damaged something themselves and want the manufacturer to pay…people try to run AC units on long extension cords and damage the unit or it’s a power surge faulty wiring at a campground etc…I do wish The manufacturers would not be so quick to deny a warranty claim but …can you imagine if you bought a new car and it didn’t start one day and you took it upon yourself to buy a brand new motor and install it and expect GM or Ford to pay for it?..not gonna happen



I’d make sure you sealed that new AC properly to avoid water damage to floors and walls
good luck and hope you get it sorted

 

[NH_Bulldog]

Sorry to hear you are having issues.

When you did your pre-purchase inspection and walkthrough of the unit, did the air conditioner work at that time and then fail later? Same for the water heater issues?

I have found with the tankless/demand water heaters and the shower, you need to set the heater control to a comfortable setting like 103-104 degrees F. and then in the shower only use the hot water side full open (no mixing with cold) and you will have a nice long shower with endless hot water. (limited only by your holding tank capacity). If 103 degrees is too hot, set the temp a little lower, but only use the hot water side full open. Otherwise, there isn't enough flow through the water heater to keep the burner in cycle and temp will get hot, then cold, then maybe hot again, then cold, etc. This is the same with all RV tankless/demand water heaters. We have been using ours for 4 months now and we all love the shower/hot water, you just need to understand how it works.

 

[chuckster57]

While I understand your frustration, pretty much every RV manufacturer has a process you have to follow. In addition to that, some dealers won’t even accept a unit for warranty repair that they didn’t sell.

Patience is key, and a dealership that actually cares about its customers.

 

[GregPLV]

While I agree to some extent with Keystones position on the air conditioner, I was treated as if was stupid and didn't follow their procedure. They weren't out camping with a new trailer with an inside temperature that was unliveable when the air conditioner malfuntioned. THEY do not own the trailer nor did they invest the time and money in a camping trip to find a faulty air conditioner.
The hot water with the shower is one of three issues with the shower. the shower has a hot water valve installed in both faucets, where the cold water valve turns backwards to operate.
The hot water valve not triggering hot water heater on is a major failure. If the sink is on pumping hot water then the shower will pump hot water through the valve. This means that the trigger device for the shower is in line with the sink. This means there is no way to isolate the supply in the event of another failure. This is plumbing 101. The third problem with the shower is after running the shower with a person in it or not, the walls are not sealed to the pan and the gap between them makes a raceway for water to run out the side and flood the floor. This type of workamanship cannot be detected at the "walk through" by the dealer.
As any trailer owner knows taking your trailer for service means 3 to 4 weeks out of commission minimum. Add to that the decision days or weeks for Keystone to "DECIDE" if they will cover the failure. my trailer will be unuseable for over a month.
I regret buying this trailer. My travel partner has a 6 year old trailer with none of these issues.I truly expect Keystone will not take any responsibility for the issues and I am stuck with continuing deficiencies. I appreciate all of the responses but I am completely disgusted with Keystone.

 

[GregPLV]

they showed us hot water in the bathroom sink only. They turned on the AC for about 20 seconds. Because it powered up I guess it passed their test. No water was run in the shower, they just pointed to the valves.

 

[NH_Bulldog]

I get that you want to rant, and that is okay to do. But we are owners just like you with probably 1,000 years of combined RV experience and knowledge. If you want, we can help with ideas, suggestions and methods to help you correct the issues in your RV.

A proper pre-purchase inspection should take upwards of 2 hours. They just want you to sign the dotted line and get you out the door. It is up to you to take as much time as you want/need to fully test, inspect and run everything through its paces. I have done inspections where I refused to sign anything until they fixed all the items I found during our walkthrough. A good dealer will be ready, willing and able to give you the time you need, willing to fix things that are wrong, and willing to explain every little thing in detail, especially if you are new to RVing.

The tankless water heaters require a certain amount of continuous flow through the hot water side of the plumbing system. With the cold side closed and the hot side fully open, there is enough flow to provide a steady and stable temperature hot water in the shower once the hot water gets there. Opening the sink faucet only makes it worse. Just try it the way I described above: Temperature control set at 104 degrees F. Sink faucets closed. Shower cold faucet closed, shower hot faucet fully open. Watch the water heater control screen (picture below) and see the blower icon, the flame icon and the water flow icon from left to right. Watch the temperature reading rise until it gets to the set point and stays there. All three icons should stay on for the duration of the shower. Feel the hot water in the shower. Try it.

The shower pan has a tall lip around the perimeter that is covered by the surround. There is no water leaking there, and there is no caulking needed. What I see and have experienced in my last RV was that water hits the flat lip around the base and simply flows off the edge. A good shower curtain helps, towels on the floor helps, but absent a fixed shower door enclosure, water will find a way out. On my prior RV, I ran a small bead of white silicone caulking across the front edge of the shower pan to act as a dam to prevent water from flowing out onto the floor. It worked like a charm and I rarely had any puddles on the floor.

Anyway, good luck and feel free to ask questions and seek out guidance/ideas. You will maintain your sanity better that way.

 

[LHaven]

Is it at all possible that something like a low-flow shower head is keeping the WH flow sensor from turning on the propane?

 

[Randy23LT]

Is it at all possible that something like a low-flow shower head is keeping the WH flow sensor from turning on the propane?

My thoughts also but as noted, I only use the hot water valve while in the shower and it works great.

 

[JRTJH]

Is it at all possible that something like a low-flow shower head is keeping the WH flow sensor from turning on the propane?

My thoughts also but as noted, I only use the hot water valve while in the shower and it works great.

The showerhead is a MAJOR contributing factor to most issues related to not being able to shower at a constant temperature.

When you consider that most RV showerheads are "low flow". As an example, the Oxygenics Body Spa showerhead has a flow rate of 1.8 GPM@80PSI and 1.2GPM@45PSI. Most "plastic OEM showerheads" have a flow rate under 2.5GPM.

Now, when a demand water heater requires 2.5-3.5GPM flow rate to trigger ignition and your showerhead (with the hot and cold faucets turned on) has a hot water flow rate of less than 2GPM, you WILL NOT trigger the water heater to even turn on.

So, some people turn on the hot water faucet in the vanity sink (waste precious water if dry camping) and still BARELY achieve the required flow rate.

Here's the problem most face: The water heater required flow rate to operate properly is well above the actual flow rate of the shower plumbing.

YOU WILL NOT ACHIEVE SATISFACTORY FLOW RATES AND COMFORTABLE SHOWER OPERATION WITH MOST LOW FLOW SHOWER HEADS......

It's not a "Keystone only" issue. No matter if a Suburban, Fogatti, Girard, Furron or any other "on-demand water heater brand", unless you operate the plumbing within the requirements of the water heater appliance, you won't get satisfactory performance.

Options are:
1. Live with the current showerhead and turn on the shower hot water faucet only.
2. Change out the showerhead to a "water wasting type" with a flow rate greater than the water heater minimum requirement. You must also include the cold water flow rate on the shower faucet plumbing when you calculate the HOT WATER FLOW through the water heater.
3. Change out the demand water heater for a tank type if YOUR WATER FLOW doesn't meet the appliance minimum requirement for operation....

It's not that the water heater is malfunctioning, it's that the shower head hot water flow rate is not great enough to trigger the water heater to turn itself on. The COMPROMISE with trying to get "unlimited hot water" in a "water saving low flow environment" aren't compatible.....

To make things "even more uncomfortable", just try to use the "trickle feature" on any showerhead (to save water) and then hope for warm water when you are ready to rinse the soap off your body.....

 

[NH_Bulldog]

John, the Girard unit requires a minimum flow rate of .70 GPM +/- 10%. So even with a low-flow shower head (1.5 GPM), there is ample flow. The issue is that when you connect to an outside water source that doesn't have enough pressure (use the onboard pump in that case) or split the flow between the hot and cold (like we do at home or with the more conventional 6 or 12 gallon tank RV water heaters), you may not reach the minimum flow threshold through the Girard unit on the hot side. The three of us have taken literally 50 showers in our Cougar in the 4+ months we have had it and as long as you follow the procedure I outlined in detail above, it is 100% trouble free.

More often than not, when people have an issue with the tankless water heaters, it is human error, not a water heater issue. After only having tank water heaters in RV's my entire life, it was a bit of a change to go to the tankless, and I was dead-set against it and was on the verge of buying a 6 gallon water heater before I even picked up my new camper. But armed with a little knowledge, it was an easy learning curve, and we absolutely love the tankless water heater and are glad we kept it.

 

[JRTJH]

John, the Girard unit requires a minimum flow rate of .70 GPM +/- 10%. So even with a low-flow shower head (1.5 GPM), there is ample flow. The issue is that when you connect to an outside water source that doesn't have enough pressure (use the onboard pump in that case) or split the flow between the hot and cold (like we do at home or with the more conventional 6 or 12 gallon tank RV water heaters), you may not reach the minimum flow threshold through the Girard unit on the hot side. The three of us have taken literally 50 showers in our Cougar in the 4+ months we have had it and as long as you follow the procedure I outlined in detail above, it is 100% trouble free.

More often than not, when people have an issue with the tankless water heaters, it is human error, not a water heater issue. After only having tank water heaters in RV's my entire life, it was a bit of a change to go to the tankless, and I was dead-set against it and was on the verge of buying a 6 gallon water heater before I even picked up my new camper. But armed with a little knowledge, it was an easy learning curve, and we absolutely love the tankless water heater and are glad we kept it.

That's my "point exactly".... Demand water heaters DO NOT operate on the same "user practices" that tank water heaters operate. EVERY demand water heater manual that I've read has a note/warning/caution in the manual that says, "Pulsating or varying water pressure will cause the water heater to not operate properly"...

All demand water heaters used in RV's have a "temperature rise capability". That might vary from unit to unit, but they all have "limited ability to adjust water temperature rise to meet input water temperature".... So, if you're using a "steady 45PSI campground water supply at 60F" when you change to the onboard tank at 70F with a pump that turns on at 38PSI and off at 48PSI (pulsing/varying pressure input to the water heater), not only will you get a different output pressure/potential water heater cutoff, but you'll also get a different temperature at the showerhead.

Simply put, what I was trying to convey is that if you use the "old tank type procedures" with a demand type water heater, it won't work. You either have to live with the problems you're facing, change the water heater or "learn how to properly use the new style water heater".... Most folks simply don't understand the demand water heater operating principles, try to apply what they are used to (tank type procedures) and they get "bad results" and blame the water heater, not their procedures to use it.

Demand water heaters are in RV's to stay. You've either got to learn to use them or "complain for years that they don't work".... It's a learning process to understand how to use them and that "change" is what most simply don't address so their water heater gets the blame.....

 

[GregPLV]

Thanks for the input and suggestions

Thanks for the help NH_Bulldog, LHAVEN and BrooksFAM.

I have tried three different shower heads. None have effected the lack of hot water. The discussion has given me an idea to remove just the shower head and see if hot water appears. This should remove the shower head as the culprit.

The fact that the hot water control panel never shows active when using the shower by itself, but when I add a small amount of flow from the sink to activate the flame and flow icons on the controller, the hot water does flow to the shower.

I am thinking the flow meter to the shower is defective or inoperable and the sink flow rate meter is working properly asking for heat. If these are in series in the supply line from the heater then I would deduce that the flow meter for the shower is defective. I adjusted the temperature originall so the shower temp would be set on all hot water.

Does this sound reasonable? Again thank you for all of the thoughts.

 

[JRTJH]

Thanks for the help NH_Bulldog, LHAVEN and BrooksFAM.

I have tried three different shower heads. None have effected the lack of hot water. The discussion has given me an idea to remove just the shower head and see if hot water appears. This should remove the shower head as the culprit.

The fact that the hot water control panel never shows active when using the shower by itself, but when I add a small amount of flow from the sink to activate the flame and flow icons on the controller, the hot water does flow to the shower.

I am thinking the flow meter to the shower is defective or inoperable and the sink flow rate meter is working properly asking for heat. If these are in series in the supply line from the heater then I would deduce that the flow meter for the shower is defective. I adjusted the temperature originall so the shower temp would be set on all hot water.

Does this sound reasonable? Again thank you for all of the thoughts.

There is only one "flow meter" on the water heater and only one "water inlet and one water outlet" on the water heater. It doesn't matter which faucet or faucets you turn on, the one flow meter senses ALL WATER FLOW through the entire trailer.

What you're doing when you turn on the sink faucet is increasing the water flow through the water heater flow meter enough to keep the water heater operating. When you turn off that sink faucet, you decrease the flow through the water heater to a point where it "might or might not" be enough flow to keep the water heater operating.... Then, when you're on the onboard water pump, as the pump cycles (if it does cycle instead of run continuously) you add the "varying input pressure" to make the water flow through the flow meter vary as well.... So you "induce two potential causes for the water heater to shut down and cycle"....

Take the showerhead off the shower hose, turn on the hot water only and if the water heater operates properly, it's the showerhead that's limiting flow. Get a more "wasteful showerhead" and that should solve your problem....

 

[Jbird68-KEY]

I was thinking that maybe the water lines to the shower are connected backwards. But then you said you had hot water after running the bathroom sink for a bit. Just for sh*ts and giggles try running the cold water only in the shower.

 

[CedarCreekWoody]

I was thinking that maybe the water lines to the shower are connected backwards. But then you said you had hot water after running the bathroom sink for a bit. Just for sh*ts and giggles try running the cold water only in the shower.

This suggestion has merit. Plumbing things backwards is not unheard of.

 

[aarons44]

It's too late to help with your AC issues, but FWIW in case it helps anyone else reading this thread - I have a 2024 Hideout, and on a couple of occasions I also has issues with the AC not working correctly. Similar issue - fan would kick on, but compressor would not engage and make cold air.

What I determined is there must be some safety or override or something that can get triggered. In my case it was if the AC turned on an off too quickly. For example if I was cycling through the modes too quickly, and the AC kicked on and just as I went to the next mode. Or if I turned the temp setting down a degree (because how else do you see what the stupid thing is set at?), and it kicked on just as I turned the temp setting back up.

Any rapid on and off like that would cause the compressor to not run. In those cases I found that if I turn the system power off at the control panel and leave if off for a short period of time, it would reset whatever was messed up and the compressor would work again.

Now I just make sure that the compressor doesn't get powered on and off again quickly.

I feel your pain on this. It happened to me on the second trip, on a hot day. And I have an extended warranty with Roadside Assistance through Americare. I'm pretty sure I cursed the customer service rep out when they said this didn't qualify as an emergency to get assistance even from their phone tech people.

 

[aarons44]

I have found with the tankless/demand water heaters and the shower, you need to set the heater control to a comfortable setting like 103-104 degrees F. and then in the shower only use the hot water side full open (no mixing with cold) and you will have a nice long shower with endless hot water.

This is a great tip. I'm interested to try it out this weekend. I left mine at 124, thinking I would need to mix cold no matter what to get enough flow, but I have the cycling on and off you describe. There's really no point at having it at 124 otherwise - that's not hot enough to boil water or be sterile. So if there's enough flow with just the hot then setting it at a comfortable temp should be perfect.

 

[jasin1]

It's too late to help with your AC issues, but FWIW in case it helps anyone else reading this thread - I have a 2024 Hideout, and on a couple of occasions I also has issues with the AC not working correctly. Similar issue - fan would kick on, but compressor would not engage and make cold air.

What I determined is there must be some safety or override or something that can get triggered. In my case it was if the AC turned on an off too quickly. For example if I was cycling through the modes too quickly, and the AC kicked on and just as I went to the next mode. Or if I turned the temp setting down a degree (because how else do you see what the stupid thing is set at?), and it kicked on just as I turned the temp setting back up.

Any rapid on and off like that would cause the compressor to not run. In those cases I found that if I turn the system power off at the control panel and leave if off for a short period of time, it would reset whatever was messed up and the compressor would work again.

Now I just make sure that the compressor doesn't get powered on and off again quickly.

I feel your pain on this. It happened to me on the second trip, on a hot day. And I have an extended warranty with Roadside Assistance through Americare. I'm pretty sure I cursed the customer service rep out when they said this didn't qualify as an emergency to get assistance even from their phone tech people.

most all modern digital hvac controls/thermostats have built in 5 min compressor time delays to keep the compressor from trying to start immediately after its shutoff… for example when there is a momentary power outage or like you said when someone is messing around with the thermostat and shuts the unit offf…you never notice this during normal operation because the timer resets itself after 5 min during normal operation and equipment cycles

 

[Randy23LT]

My thoughts also but as noted, I only use the hot water valve while in the shower and it works great.

BTW. Mine is set at 108F. I like hot showers