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Old 05-03-2022, 04:44 AM   #81
Pathman
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So, a bit of follow up and a question.

Took my truck to a Catscale yesterday. Had myself, my wife, a bunch of gear to simulate actual trip load, and a full tank of gas. The only thing I didn’t have was the hitch. The weight was 7540#, but I’d have to add 150# for the hitch right? So total weight is 7690.
Now for my question (my confusion), it’s been stated that a full tank of gas is included in the GVWR, if that’s the case, should that weight be subtracted from yesterday’s scale weight?
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Old 05-03-2022, 05:04 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Pathman View Post
So, a bit of follow up and a question.

Took my truck to a Catscale yesterday. Had myself, my wife, a bunch of gear to simulate actual trip load, and a full tank of gas. The only thing I didn’t have was the hitch. The weight was 7540#, but I’d have to add 150# for the hitch right? So total weight is 7690.
Now for my question (my confusion), it’s been stated that a full tank of gas is included in the GVWR, if that’s the case, should that weight be subtracted from yesterday’s scale weight?
Well the GVWR is the maximum that the truck should weigh on the wheels. So you have 10,000# - 7,690# = 2,310# available for pin weight. So with the "Dry Pin of 2,400# you are already 90# past GVWR without battery and propane. So now for decision time.

You also had a Payload sticker of 2,966# - 2,310# = 656# of people and stuff removed from payload, before you even hook up.

Don't feel bad, we used 1,411# of payload on our 2016 Ram 3500 before hitching up.
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Old 05-03-2022, 05:13 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Pathman View Post
So, a bit of follow up and a question.

Took my truck to a Catscale yesterday. Had myself, my wife, a bunch of gear to simulate actual trip load, and a full tank of gas. The only thing I didnít have was the hitch. The weight was 7540#, but Iíd have to add 150# for the hitch right? So total weight is 7690.
Now for my question (my confusion), itís been stated that a full tank of gas is included in the GVWR, if thatís the case, should that weight be subtracted from yesterdayís scale weight?
Truck gvw is 10k. Let's call the truck weight as 7,700 lbs. The simple math 10,000 -7,700 = 2,300 lbs of available payload remaining. That's a very common number for a deisel 3/4 ton pu. The numbers don't lie. Consult your owner's manual to see if the gvw of the truck includes fuel or not.

My advice, don't start digging and scratching for lbs to "make it work". If a tank of fuel will put you over gvw you need a larger truck IMO.
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Old 05-03-2022, 05:15 AM   #84
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When you have to decide between a 12 pack or a 6 pack it's time for a bigger truck.
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Old 05-03-2022, 06:53 AM   #85
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GVWR is the maximum the truck can put to the ground on it’s wheels. So that full tank of fuel is part of GVW!
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Old 05-03-2022, 01:44 PM   #86
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GVWR is the maximum the truck can put to the ground on itís wheels. So that full tank of fuel is part of GVW!
So then am I not actually factoring in the weight of the tank of gas twice? Once in the GVW and again in the curb weight I got from the scale yesterday?

I understand the comments regarding ďdigging for weight,Ē ď6 pack vs. 12 pack,Ē etc., and Iím in agreement that being ďon the lineĒ of being at max payload is not a good place to be.
That being said, if the thought process is, you must count every dish, every cup, every roll of TP you put in the truck or trailer because it will count toward your total payload capacity, how can you then disregard the weight of a full tank of gas being added to the equation twice?
It seems to me that equal weight (pun intended) must be given to both sides of the issue.
Iím not saying Iím absolutely correct on the double dip with the tank of gas (~200#), but if I am, it should be calculated as such no?
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Old 05-03-2022, 01:56 PM   #87
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So then am I not actually factoring in the weight of the tank of gas twice? Once in the GVW and again in the curb weight I got from the scale yesterday?

I understand the comments regarding ďdigging for weight,Ē ď6 pack vs. 12 pack,Ē etc., and Iím in agreement that being ďon the lineĒ of being at max payload is not a good place to be.
That being said, if the thought process is, you must count every dish, every cup, every roll of TP you put in the truck or trailer because it will count toward your total payload capacity, how can you then disregard the weight of a full tank of gas being added to the equation twice?
It seems to me that equal weight (pun intended) must be given to both sides of the issue.
Iím not saying Iím absolutely correct on the double dip with the tank of gas (~200#), but if I am, it should be calculated as such no?
OK, let's rip off the band-aid. The published pin weight for the trailer EMPTY exceeds your available payload, period. As several folks have exhaustively explained several times you will never, ever see that little pin weight on that trailer, period. There is nothing that will change these facts.

Good luck to you.
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Old 05-03-2022, 02:22 PM   #88
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So then am I not actually factoring in the weight of the tank of gas twice? Once in the GVW and again in the curb weight I got from the scale yesterday?

I understand the comments regarding “digging for weight,” “6 pack vs. 12 pack,” etc., and I’m in agreement that being “on the line” of being at max payload is not a good place to be.
That being said, if the thought process is, you must count every dish, every cup, every roll of TP you put in the truck or trailer because it will count toward your total payload capacity, how can you then disregard the weight of a full tank of gas being added to the equation twice?
It seems to me that equal weight (pun intended) must be given to both sides of the issue.
I’m not saying I’m absolutely correct on the double dip with the tank of gas (~200#), but if I am, it should be calculated as such no?
The sticker payload value is calculated when your truck rolls off the line, empty of fuel. But....the weight of a full tank of fuel is assumed and factored in to the value on the sticker.

A 34 gallon tank * 6 lbs per gallon of gas means 204 lbs will be deducted from your final 'as it left the factory' sticker payload value.

Example:

Truck GVWR 10,000
Empty Truck Weight, as Optioned: 7,350

10,000 - 7,350 = 2,650 for payload - but the assumed 204 lbs of gas means Ford will post 2,446 on the door pillar sticker.

The bottom line is PAYLOAD = GVWR - VEHICLE WEIGHT. It is a moving target depending on how much you are carrying in the truck...even how much gas you have in the tank.

The recommendation to load up fully for camping...including a full tank of gas, adding in 150 for the hitch and then subtracting that figure from your 10K GVWR tells you exactly where you stand with regard to how much pin weight you can safely carry.
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Old 05-03-2022, 03:01 PM   #89
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OK, let's rip off the band-aid. The published pin weight for the trailer EMPTY exceeds your available payload, period. As several folks have exhaustively explained several times you will never, ever see that little pin weight on that trailer, period. There is nothing that will change these facts.

Good luck to you.
Wow, why so much anger in your response? Iím not trying to change facts, Iím trying to understand how you guys calculate your weights. You obviously have it down to a science, which Iíve yet to totally comprehend, so Iím trying to ensure that I understand in great detail how you arrive at your figures, itís something that is taking a bit of getting used to given the various factors that must be calculated.
Iím just asking the questions, if you donít have the patience for a civil answer thatís fine, then donít answer.
No need for hostility.
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Old 05-03-2022, 03:16 PM   #90
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Head to scales, full of fuel, all folks that would be in the truck camping along with all the STUFF you carry in the truck, including cup holders full of drinks & change in the ash tray if that's how you travel, the passengers with all their must have travel goodies & if you have the hitch put it in as well.
With that weight subtract from the GVWR posted on your door jamb, not the payload, but the 10k or whatever yours has posted. Now you've accounted for everything including fuel, whatever the difference is your ACTUAL payload, no more guessing.
From that ACTUAL payload subtract the estimated pin weight using the 23% of the rv GVWR + 150lbs+/- for the hitch if you don't have it yet.
Now you've got ALL your ACTUAL numbers! The only unknown weight will be the ACTUAL pin weight of a 5er & hitch you don't have to weigh yet, but you can calculate the max pin weight of any 5er you chose.
I'm certain you'll find that the rv you've posted here will be beyond the limits of your current truck.
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Old 05-03-2022, 03:17 PM   #91
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Pathman...at the risk of , in re-reading some of these posts, I think your confusion may stem from this statement you made:

Now for my question (my confusion), itís been stated that a full tank of gas is included in the GVWR, if thatís the case, should that weight be subtracted from yesterdayís scale weight?

The fuel is not included in the GVWR - it is included as weight...i.e. payload. The GVWR is the Gross Vehicle Weight RATING...it is what your truck is rated to weigh, maximum. Perhaps you are confusing this with GVW, Gross Vehicle Weight? Which is what you truck actually weighs....including fuel.
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Old 05-03-2022, 03:18 PM   #92
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Wow, why so much anger in your response? Iím not trying to change facts, Iím trying to understand how you guys calculate your weights. You obviously have it down to a science, which Iíve yet to totally comprehend, so Iím trying to ensure that I understand in great detail how you arrive at your figures, itís something that is taking a bit of getting used to given the various factors that must be calculated.
Iím just asking the questions, if you donít have the patience for a civil answer thatís fine, then donít answer.
No need for hostility.
No anger, no hostility. I think everyone has explained how they have arrived at their calculations several times over. I'm sorry you don't understand and I don't know how to make it so so you can. So with that this will be my last comment on this post. It has nothing to do with patience and I won't bother you again if you think my comments aren't civil.
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Old 05-03-2022, 03:29 PM   #93
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Five pages of redundant explanation. If you have NOT been to the scales which will give you accurate numbers, take the payload of your truck. Multiply the gross weight of your trailer by 23 percent for the pin weight. Add to the pin weight any accessories, passengers and cargo in the truck. Smarter folks than I have explained this ad nauseum and that is as simple as I can make it. The horse is definitely dead.
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Old 05-03-2022, 04:17 PM   #94
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One last time; you went to the scale, you weighed 7540 without a hitch; add 200 = 7740 truck weight. 10k gvwr is the max the truck can weigh....PERIOD with "stuff" in it and on it including the pin weight of the 5th wheel. 10k lbs. less 7740 = 2260.....the MAXIMUM weight you can transfer to the truck in pin weight, wood, widgits or anything else....2260 lbs. Your sticker on the door with 29xx now means nothing. So....what kind of 5th wheel can you get with an estimated 2260lbs. of pin weight figured...let's say at just 22%;

a 10,000 lb. gvw 5th wheel would come in at 2200lbs. Now you're 60 lbs. under max gvwr....but wait, you wanted to throw in a cooler full of drinks - over gvw. Or, Jimmy's friend wanted to ride along...whoops, over gvw. You get the picture. The WRONG place to be in the buy RV, buy tow vehicle circle is to buy a combo so that you are ALWAYS on the edge or over....you will end up over. As has been said, and re-said, if you have to worry about a hitch, tank of gas, 12 pack etc. you are looking at a combo that should not be matched. That is just plain as I can make it after even say 10? pages of questions and efforts at helping!
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Old 05-03-2022, 04:38 PM   #95
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The sticker payload value is calculated when your truck rolls off the line, empty of fuel. But....the weight of a full tank of fuel is assumed and factored in to the value on the sticker.

A 34 gallon tank * 6 lbs per gallon of gas means 204 lbs will be deducted from your final 'as it left the factory' sticker payload value.

Example:

Truck GVWR 10,000
Empty Truck Weight, as Optioned: 7,350

10,000 - 7,350 = 2,650 for payload - but the assumed 204 lbs of gas means Ford will post 2,446 on the door pillar sticker..
Thanks Markcee, I do understand the basic concept of calculating the pin weight, all the explanations from everyone here accomplished that, but all I was asking was a very specific question regarding the factors that go into the calculations.
The above answer you gave was exactly what I was looking for, to know whether the fuel was counted, or not, for the purpose of general knowledge on future calculations prior to buying a fifth wheel.

That being said, if all of you that have the years of experience that allows you to calculate these weights as second nature, I think you take that ability for granted, to the general public, this is some complicated stuff that isnít easily conveyed or understood so easily.

Regarding the answer you provided on the fuel, Iíd be willing to bet a steak dinner that 99% of the people on this planet have no idea that the weight of the fuel is calculated as you described.

So thanks for making me one of the 1% that now know that.
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Old 05-03-2022, 05:34 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Pathman View Post
Thanks Markcee, I do understand the basic concept of calculating the pin weight, all the explanations from everyone here accomplished that, but all I was asking was a very specific question regarding the factors that go into the calculations.
The above answer you gave was exactly what I was looking for, to know whether the fuel was counted, or not, for the purpose of general knowledge on future calculations prior to buying a fifth wheel.

That being said, if all of you that have the years of experience that allows you to calculate these weights as second nature, I think you take that ability for granted, to the general public, this is some complicated stuff that isnít easily conveyed or understood so easily.

Regarding the answer you provided on the fuel, Iíd be willing to bet a steak dinner that 99% of the people on this planet have no idea that the weight of the fuel is calculated as you described.

So thanks for making me one of the 1% that now know that.
Ok, now that youíve got all the information you should need, what have you arrived at for a decision on your trucks ability to carry the fiver your looking at SAFELY and LEGALLY?
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Old 05-03-2022, 05:48 PM   #97
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Looks like I’ll be exploring a new truck. The 2500 is brand new, and I waited 6 months for it ( I needed a new truck anyway, just not a 2500). However, I had planned on a 30’ or less fifth wheel, but my wife can’t seem to find one that she likes that’s smaller than 34’, so, I have
an obvious dilemma…
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Old 05-03-2022, 05:55 PM   #98
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Looks like Iíll be exploring a new truck. The 2500 is brand new, and I waited 6 months for it ( I needed a new truck anyway, just not a 2500). However, I had planned on a 30í or less fifth wheel, but my wife canít seem to find one that she likes thatís smaller than 34í, so, I have
an obvious dilemmaÖ
I wish you all the best in your search. And with that I think we can call this thread DONE!!!

Feel free to start a new one when you find what makes you and the wife happy.
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Old 05-03-2022, 06:12 PM   #99
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