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Old 06-13-2021, 07:11 PM   #1
jfk69
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I give up

So I’m on a couple Keystone FB groups. I’m not sure why I bother lol. There was a post this evening from a guy who tomorrow takes delivery of his new to him 2020 Avalanche 378BH. He intends to pull it with his new to him 2016 GMC Sierra 2500HD Denali with a Duramax. I posted that it wasn’t enough truck and all hell broke loose. I was shocked, or maybe not, by the number of people attacking me and telling him it was “more than enough truck” and supporting their position by talking tow capacity and pictures of their own grossly overloaded rigs that “tow great”.

I’m actually more afraid tonight to pull down the road than ever, in spite of having witnessed overloaded TV’s and rigs before. It reaffirms my belief that some folks are simply unable to swim out of the shallow end of the gene pool. The poster himself stated that “the numbers don’t work” but he sleeps at night not worrying about his wife and kids because he knows “the former owners pulled it with an F250 and they were fine”. Good Lord.
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Old 06-13-2021, 07:16 PM   #2
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Some people just don’t want to hear the truth. Remember the dealer said it was all okay.
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Old 06-13-2021, 07:30 PM   #3
sourdough
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Joe don't give up. I'll tell you now that it can/will drive you crazy. On the other hand IF you can find one, or more, that will listen or just take that seed of knowledge to think about, when they come around....lots of times much later, it is worth it. Numbers; use the numbers; they don't lie, it's not an opinion....they are what they are. If folks don't like them; can't deal with them or don't care, it is what it is BUT LOTS of folks do care....they just didn't know. That's what I shoot for; the ones that didn't know but want to be safe.
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Old 06-13-2021, 11:08 PM   #4
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I feel the same way about the California expats on FB with their overloaded moving rigs, proudly flying their middle fingers across the border. More than a few have posted horrifying crash stories, and it's always "we didn't even see the other guy that hit us, but they didn't stop, and everything is destroyed, and Fluffy ran off but the kids are ok."

When you say "hey, the cops might ask if your load or weight had anything to do with it," they are unbelievably flippant about all of that, as if it doesn't exist, and they didn't just nearly die on Interstate 40 in a tangled mess of steel and fiberglass, all because of some phantom thing that hit them from behind causing it to fishtail and lose control. Some people...
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Old 06-14-2021, 01:48 AM   #5
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I always get a little grin on my face when newbies come to this forum with some of the numbers from their rigs asking for acceptance rather than advice. George will politely ask them to post the pertinent info in the signature, Bob will then ask a simple question about how that 2500 tows that 42' Raptor, Jim will ask if he's ever run over a CAT scale....and then all hell breaks loose because he ALWAYS knows more than the members, sees it done every day, and can't understand why he didn't get the acceptance he craved.
Join this forum they said. You'll have fun they said. Buy the 2500 they said...
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:12 AM   #6
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Yet another reason I’m NOT on Facebook
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:30 AM   #7
?sdrawkcabsihtsiyhw
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lol so you were that guy, i seen that post. reminds me of the pop up days, everyone trying to tow a highwall pop up with their family sedan and then get mad when you say you cant.
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:44 AM   #8
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Yet another reason I’m NOT on Facebook
Copy that! My DW signed me up for a FB account years ago. That was a subject for some intense disscussion at the time but I kept the account for a few years becausenour daughters posted pics of the grandkids there. I didn’t want the account because I knew with the position I had at work every idiot wanting to sell me something would want to be my "freind". I have a very different defenition of that word than FB and it's customers do.

Anyway, I rarely posted anything and was amazed at some of the BS it would generate. I found most of the loadest voices were cyber bullies, sactimonious narcissist, or complete aholes that think THEIR VIEWS are somehow facts and try to rewrite history or science to fit their narrative. After FB became the "view point editors" I deleted my account.

These are my opinions and if I've offended someone that thinks FB is just "fabulous" then good for you. We all have different tastes and opinions and I pray our nation maintains those freedoms.
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:49 AM   #9
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No FB isn’t fabulous by any means lol. It’s a resource, and a way to keep touch with lifetime friends who live half way around the globe, but it’s best used sparingly and cautiously.
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:49 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by jfk69 View Post
So I’m on a couple Keystone FB groups. I’m not sure why I bother lol. There was a post this evening from a guy who tomorrow takes delivery of his new to him 2020 Avalanche 378BH. He intends to pull it with his new to him 2016 GMC Sierra 2500HD Denali with a Duramax. I posted that it wasn’t enough truck and all hell broke loose. I was shocked, or maybe not, by the number of people attacking me and telling him it was “more than enough truck” and supporting their position by talking tow capacity and pictures of their own grossly overloaded rigs that “tow great”.

I’m actually more afraid tonight to pull down the road than ever, in spite of having witnessed overloaded TV’s and rigs before. It reaffirms my belief that some folks are simply unable to swim out of the shallow end of the gene pool. The poster himself stated that “the numbers don’t work” but he sleeps at night not worrying about his wife and kids because he knows “the former owners pulled it with an F250 and they were fine”. Good Lord.
2020 Avalanche 378BH.
Technical Specifications:
Length (ft/ft) 40' 7"
Width 8' 4"
Height (in/mm) 13' 4"
Dry Weight 13,616#
Payload Capacity 2,884#
GVWR 16,500#
Hitch Weight Dry 2,820#
So this 5er starts out with a 2,884# pin, on a DRY weight of 13,616, or just over 21%. Taken to full GVWR of 16,500# pin at 21% would be 3,465# even pushing the rear axle rating, without any passengers, Hitch, or stuff in the TV.

Now to the last sentence of your post.
"The former owners pulled it with an F250 and they were fine"
Well his 2016 GMC 2500 likely has a TOWING (AKA PULLING) capacity of about 18,000#+!

So here is the issue, stated many times before a 5er's best feature is also it's worst and gets people trouble in trouble.
That feature is a 5er's inherent stability while being towed. The first owner was probably correct that towing that 5er was fine even over loaded.

I was a bad boy on this forum for several years as I was towing in the end at 1,700# over our 2001 Ram 2500 GVWR, still within tire and axle ratings, but 1,700# over the 8,800# GVWR.
Well it towed very well, never a stability issue, I will say with 3.55's and a manual 5 speed it did work getting going.
It wasn't any issues with stability or even power that prompted the change, it was what happens if I am involved in an crash at 1,700# over GVWR! I saw potential lawsuits even if NOT at fault.

While this was my situation, I never encouraged other to do the same!

After we went full time we decided to get a better suited TV, for two reasons, being over weight, and DW didn't like following me in a second vehicle.

We now have a 2016 Ram 3500 DRW, with a 5,411# payload, and a 25,225# towing capacity.

I will say I also took advantage of Oregon ODOT weigh stations leaving scale displays on when closed and weighed often.
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Old 06-14-2021, 05:21 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
I feel the same way about the California expats on FB with their overloaded moving rigs, proudly flying their middle fingers across the border. More than a few have posted horrifying crash stories, and it's always "we didn't even see the other guy that hit us, but they didn't stop, and everything is destroyed, and Fluffy ran off but the kids are ok."

When you say "hey, the cops might ask if your load or weight had anything to do with it," they are unbelievably flippant about all of that, as if it doesn't exist, and they didn't just nearly die on Interstate 40 in a tangled mess of steel and fiberglass, all because of some phantom thing that hit them from behind causing it to fishtail and lose control. Some people...
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...airstream-tow/

The "California expats" in this article were warned of overweight towing, but did as you stated, displayed a bird and towed anyway. Finding themselves in the middle of the interstate (more than likely I-40 outside of Barstow) jack-knifed and blocking all lanes wasn't enough of an indicator that something was not right. Well nothing a doobie by the campfire wont cure, right?
And the real irony here is, this whole story is published in a (formerly) respected driving publication. WTF???
RMc
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:13 AM   #12
sourdough
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Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger View Post
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...airstream-tow/

The "California expats" in this article were warned of overweight towing, but did as you stated, displayed a bird and towed anyway. Finding themselves in the middle of the interstate (more than likely I-40 outside of Barstow) jack-knifed and blocking all lanes wasn't enough of an indicator that something was not right. Well nothing a doobie by the campfire wont cure, right?
And the real irony here is, this whole story is published in a (formerly) respected driving publication. WTF???
RMc


Back in the day car and driver was my "go to" car publication for accurate and detailed analysis of vehicles I was interested in. I especially liked their comparisons from time to time. They went through any number of personnel/management changes but kept a pretty good handle on what their purpose (IMO) was. Somewhere after 2000 they began to drift with some of the changes they made and became more and more unreadable, contributed to by bozos like the one in the article. 6-8 years ago I dropped that subscription after something like 30 years. As you said, "formerly respected".
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:41 AM   #13
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Back in the day car and driver was my "go to" car publication for accurate and detailed analysis of vehicles I was interested in. I especially liked their comparisons from time to time. They went through any number of personnel/management changes but kept a pretty good handle on what their purpose (IMO) was. Somewhere after 2000 they began to drift with some of the changes they made and became more and more unreadable, contributed to by bozos like the one in the article. 6-8 years ago I dropped that subscription after something like 30 years. As you said, "formerly respected".
It's the same with Trailer Life. Under the supervision of Art Rouse, it was a respected and objective source of information about most things related to travel trailers, tow vehicles and camping/towing equipment used for both. Now, under the management of Camping World's board of directors, it's become a 96 page advertisement for "all things we sell at your local CW".... No longer is it an information source, rather it's a "mag rag" dedicated to the spend your money here crowd.....
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Old 06-14-2021, 11:25 AM   #14
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To the point (and title) of the OP, I agree, I give up as well. I see more rigs going down the road (that appear) to be overloaded. I say that because traveling the interstate and trying to see if a FW is being towed by a F350/3500 or F250/2500 SRW going the opposite direction is hard (if not impossible) to do.
But I know what the rig is when I get passed by a F250/2500 towing a three axle toy hauler, or some other obviously unsafe and overweight combination. And in the CGs, you take a walk around and you see just how many rigs (large ones) are being towed by an undersized (in the opinion of most on this forum)TV.
So, as stated, I give up. You really can't change anything. Any approach either on this forum or in person is going to be met with resentment and conflict. I guess the mindset is "if the state gave me a license plate, it must be legal" and the sad part is that's true! But it does not make it right or safe.
For those that will listen, they have our blessings.
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Old 06-14-2021, 01:58 PM   #15
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"Any approach either on this forum or in person is going to be met with resentment and conflict."
I'm not sure a more accurate phrase was ever uttered on this forum.
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:30 PM   #16
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No, don’t give up. Because here I sit in a new to me 2016 Ram 3500 DRW, selling my old Chevy 2500 because I went across a set of scales and YOU ALL were the little voices inside my head as I stared at numbers on a ticket that couldn’t be right (in my mind). All of the warnings and concerns brought to my attention here were big red flags as I came to grips. I certainly could have ignored it, crumpled it up, and continued driving a paid-for truck that I thought was a beast. But I couldn’t get past those warnings. Of my responsibility for my family, my job, and those around me.

I guess I should change my username now since I don’t have my heavy Chevy anymore? How bout, “eatin crow” or “I was warned”?

You made an impact and changed my mind. And my family thanks you for it!
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:40 PM   #17
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No, don’t give up. Because here I sit in a new to me 2016 Ram 3500 DRW, selling my old Chevy 2500 because I went across a set of scales and YOU ALL were the little voices inside my head as I stared at numbers on a ticket that couldn’t be right (in my mind). All of the warnings and concerns brought to my attention here were big red flags as I came to grips. I certainly could have ignored it, crumpled it up, and continued driving a paid-for truck that I thought was a beast. But I couldn’t get past those warnings. Of my responsibility for my family, my job, and those around me.

I guess I should change my username now since I don’t have my heavy Chevy anymore? How bout, “eatin crow” or “I was warned”?

You made an impact and changed my mind. And my family thanks you for it!

Your comments mirror mine from back when and are the reason so many folks that have "been around the block" try to shed light on the weight issues that dealerships would much prefer you didn't know. Might make that name Past Heavy Chevy....or whatever. I'm not a creative person in that respect but I'm happy for you.
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Old 06-15-2021, 03:27 AM   #18
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When we got our first 5er around 10 years ago I had a 2003 F-250 with the 7.3 PS and it was a only a 30' and the pin weight was within the F-250's GVWR. In 2014 we bought a new 5er that was 36' and had a significantly heavier pin weight about 500 lbs over the GVWR. I tried to keep the weight in the front of the 5er as low as possible to try and convince myself I was safe, as a matter of fact my Wife called me the "Weight Nazi". The truck pulled the new 5er fine but in the back of my mind I still was uneasy not just from a safety aspect but, also from a "Legal" one. A lot of people don't take this into account. You get in an bad accident and even if it isn't your fault and some Blood Sucking Lawyer is gonna do the math and say that you were not legally hauling. After about 6 months of pulling with the F-250 I bought my first Dually. The Wife was happy too because now she could put all kinda crap in the front storage boxes.
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Old 06-15-2021, 05:59 AM   #19
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I'm happy I did tons of research (about 4 years of working, saving, and researching) to make the safe choice. My Chevy 3500 DRW has a payload of 5200#. I bought the truck before the camper knowing the importance of towing safely. I know a SRW 3500 would do the job, but eventually we want to see the country. The DRW although difficult to park at the grocery store feels rock solid towing down the road.
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Old 06-15-2021, 06:01 AM   #20
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The DW says I probably won't quit...
I will admit though, that as I age I've become less inclined to persist when met with resistance. Why bother spending your time trying to help people who frankly, think that you're a fool and a busybody for trying to possibly save their and/or their loved one's lives... or at least a good chuck of their retirement fund.
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