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Old 03-25-2021, 09:51 AM   #61
sourdough
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Originally Posted by Mikelff View Post
With all this debate there is one thing to consider. ALL weights and claims by manufacturers MUST first clear and be approved by the DOT and prove these new weight claims. No matter what “marketing” guys might say, the DOT has the final word. As far as towing with a 2500, many people make the mistake of buying the TV before they buy the 5er (me!). Many folks cannot or do not want to take the financial hit to do an upgrade to a new TV. People make the assumption that the 2500 was bought new to tow the 5er, when in many cases they already owned the 2500 then decided to get a 5er. My tv was a certified used diesel to start with (2017). When I bought my 5er the dealer would not release it to me until I had some modifications to my vehicle as I was overweight from the git go. Most dealers wont do this. They just want to sell you an RV. They sent my TV for DOT certified modifications, which consisted of a new spring pack. The certified shop affixed a NEW yellow certification sticker with my new GVWR, and GRAWR. I had also increased the tires to the next load range up. According to the DOT, I am now towing underweight by about 450 pounds fully loaded with full fuel, and all my “stuff” in the 5er with 15 gal of water in the fresh tank and 12 gal in hot water heater, according to the CAT scales. The mods cost me about $2,500. Thousands cheaper than a new TV and I am safe and legal in all 50 states. Again, the DOT governs and sets the specs for all certified vehicle aftermarket modifications. NOT the weight police on this forum, which most have no experience or knowledge about the subject. I also have air bags that really soften the ride and level my rig. They don’t increase any weight ratings, though in reality, can carry a lot of the weight. I like the airbags over shocks because they are far more adjustable. Can 2500 legally and safely carry a heavy fiver? Yes, with the right CERTIFIED modifications. How do brand new TV’s get new ratings? They modify their vehicles! The same can be done with used TV’s. My dimes worth.

Not sure what you reference above. Adding "spring packs"? Adding air bags? Yes, we do. Trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? I'll just buy the silk purse.....
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:56 AM   #62
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I have a question about using the cat scales when I go to weigh my rig which is a travel trailer unit should I drop the weight distribution equalizer bars to get a correct payload weight on my truck. 19 Ram 2500 Diesel 4x4 mega cab, Outback301UBH.
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:06 AM   #63
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Plus here in MN the annual road tax (license plate) on a new 3/4T starts at $800+ and a 1T is less than $250. I have no idea why.
- Dave
And other states may be just the opposite. But to me here's the thing, I'm not willing to compromise my safety or the my family's safety for the sake of money. If I can't afford a proper truck to haul a desired trailer than I'll either compromise on an appropriately sized trailer for the truck or not buy one at all. I just don't understand how people can compromise on safety in such a cavalier manner. I have to ask, if you ordered a meal in a restaurant and the wait staff said "there's a 80% chance that you won't contract Hepatitis A, E.coli, or botulism would you take that risk?
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:25 AM   #64
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I have a question about using the cat scales when I go to weigh my rig which is a travel trailer unit should I drop the weight distribution equalizer bars to get a correct payload weight on my truck. 19 Ram 2500 Diesel 4x4 mega cab, Outback301UBH.
Weight it as you drive it (WDH active) then on the second weight put the spring bars in the bed of the truck for reweigh. https://catscale.com/how-to-weigh/
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:39 AM   #65
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I've heard this "reasoning" before but I don't agree with it. From my experience and from anecdotal reports the recent 1 ton trucks ride about the came as a 3/4 and I don't understand the difference the temperature makes. Saying it will only be used to tow 20% of the time . Take a revolver, insert one round, spin it and place it against your temple and pull the trigger. Having 5 out of 6 chambers empty means you have an 83.33% chance the hammer will fall on an empty chamber. I'm not willing to take those odds. I'm also not willing to take a 1 in 5 chance (20%) knowing that there's a 100% chance of driving a truck that's overloaded. I also don't appreciate someone driving down the road pointing a gun at me playing "Russian Roulette" or with a truck passing me doing the same with an overloaded set up. JMHO, YMMV
Again, it was a gap in knowledge. One ton trucks have an extra spring that, IIRC, doesn’t even contact anything until the other ones deflect far enough.

We’re currently in that “evaluate every oz to stay underweight” phase of our lifecycle. The next vehicle will be a dually...eventually...we’ve put less than 1000 miles on all our vehicles over the past 6 months.
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:40 AM   #66
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Mikelff, “ which most have no experience or knowledge about the subject. “
I’m going to assume someone here hurt your feelings at some point and this was your way of striking back at people you know nothing about. Not to worry, most of them are tough old birds with thick skin.
Might I ask what company did the actual ‘improvements’ on your truck? Florida doesn’t seem to be run over with spring shops or custom parts stores willing to do that kind of work.
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:45 AM   #67
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Again, it was a gap in knowledge. One ton trucks have an extra spring that, IIRC, doesn’t even contact anything until the other ones deflect far enough.

We’re currently in that “evaluate every oz to stay underweight” phase of our lifecycle. The next vehicle will be a dually...eventually...we’ve put less than 1000 miles on all our vehicles over the past 6 months.
I read the "if we knew then" message at the bottom. My remarks were on the generalization of the argument that "I've hear before".
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Old 03-25-2021, 11:37 AM   #68
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I read the "if we knew then" message at the bottom. My remarks were on the generalization of the argument that "I've hear before".
Sure. It also doesn’t help that the only place to actually get the information you need is if you think to hit a forum and ask the question. The Guy selling the truck and the Guy selling the trailer won’t ever draw your attention to the payload number on the tire sticker on the door.

You’re also just expected to pick up the skills for pulling a trailer by....luck? Osmosis? YouTube.

There oughta be a law...or something.
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:05 PM   #69
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I've never understood the concept of "derating" simply to save money. If it can carry X then pay for it whether you load to it or not. My current truck, to my surprise, was registered for 8800lbs. - that's 8800lbs. for a 1 ton truck. When I saw that when I got the registration in the mail I promptly went to the DMV and questioned them. She said that's what they always did for a truck that size because people didn't want to pay the high price for the increased weight. High price? It doubled the cost to go to 12,400 but that was only $75 year extra. That's pure BS to me.
I understand why. Not that I agree with it, but here's a case in point. VA has a personal property tax of 3% of the book value of the vehicle every year. A 3/4 ton here for the most part has a GVW of 7500lbs on the registration. At 7501 there's a property tax rebate that is lost as the vehicle if registered with truck plates So folks will buy 3/4's and pass on 1 tons. It can be hard to find a 1 ton in this state in some areas.

Neither here nor there but there's a loophole in the law to register the body style as a "pickup" rather than just "truck" but frequently requires a trip to the DMV to fix. Then you get the tax break. And that break isn't insubstantial. I imagine other states have a similar conundrum.
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:29 PM   #70
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I understand why. Not that I agree with it, but here's a case in point. VA has a personal property tax of 3% of the book value of the vehicle every year. A 3/4 ton here for the most part has a GVW of 7500lbs on the registration. At 7501 there's a property tax rebate that is lost as the vehicle if registered with truck plates So folks will buy 3/4's and pass on 1 tons. It can be hard to find a 1 ton in this state in some areas.

Neither here nor there but there's a loophole in the law to register the body style as a "pickup" rather than just "truck" but frequently requires a trip to the DMV to fix. Then you get the tax break. And that break isn't insubstantial. I imagine other states have a similar conundrum.

I can understand some folks playing shenanigans if faced with that kind of situation but then again, if you know the costs associated with whatever it is that you want and need, one should pay them. On the other hand, that is one of the reasons I would not live in a state with personal property taxes (excluding real estate).
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:39 PM   #71
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Not sure what you reference above. Adding "spring packs"? Adding air bags? Yes, we do. Trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? I'll just buy the silk purse.....
Ok then, what are the DOT regulations concerning truck modifications? You imply you know all about it? Tell me.

My TV is now EXACTLY the same rating as a 2017 1 ton and DOT certified as such. Tell me how that is done.
Air bags do not change any rating but sure help the ride and level.
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:51 PM   #72
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Ok then, what are the DOT regulations concerning truck modifications? You imply you know all about it? Tell me.

My TV is now EXACTLY the same rating as a 2017 1 ton and DOT certified as such. Tell me how that is done.
Air bags do not change any rating but sure help the ride and level.

I'm sure I know most and could find out what was required but it's not worth my effort nor do I think it's wise to try to make something it wasn't intended to be and then advocate others do it. There's a better, simpler way to do it....buy the right thing. DOT regs on truck mods would be boring and silly.

As far as implying anything....I didn't. I addressed 2 specific items and of course there are more but.....why? You've been defensive from the time you ever mentioned doing your "mod". Live with it, enjoy it. The right way to do it IMO, no.
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:52 PM   #73
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Here's the answer to your 'DOT' question.
https://fifthwheelst.com/altering_ve...ification.html
You might want to drop the DOT baloney and pick up the NHTSA.
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Old 03-25-2021, 01:03 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Mikelff View Post
Ok then, what are the DOT regulations concerning truck modifications? You imply you know all about it? Tell me.

My TV is now EXACTLY the same rating as a 2017 1 ton and DOT certified as such. Tell me how that is done.
Air bags do not change any rating but sure help the ride and level.
I don’t know how it’s done ....could you explain it to me? Would you be willing to post a picture of the upgrades and new sticker? I’m just a curious sort..what’s the name of the place that does the upgrades?
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Old 03-25-2021, 01:15 PM   #75
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Mikelff, “ which most have no experience or knowledge about the subject. “
I’m going to assume someone here hurt your feelings at some point and this was your way of striking back at people you know nothing about. Not to worry, most of them are tough old birds with thick skin.
Might I ask what company did the actual ‘improvements’ on your truck? Florida doesn’t seem to be run over with spring shops or custom parts stores willing to do that kind of work.
Tampa Spring, in Tampa Fl. I am just stating the fact that trucks can be modified safely and legally to carry heavier loads than what originally came out of the factory, such as 5ers. The argument that you have to buy a new truck to get to safe payloads is blatantly false. There are folks out there that have done the same certified modifications and have done their homework. I’ll go with what DOT says is safe and legal over the weight police on this forum. When I am ready for a new TV and if I still have the same RV, I’ll probably go for a 3500. My truck has been inspected by Texas DOT and they agreed 100% I am good to go as modified. There are limits as to how much modification you can do to carry heavier loads, and they are regulated by the DOT. No feelings hurt here. Just stating facts and I have the documentation to back them up.

Fyi, here are the regulations right out of the DOT web site;

49 CFR § 567.7 - Requirements for persons who alter certified vehicles.
* CFR
* Table of Popular Names
prev next
§ 567.7 Requirements for persons who alter certified vehicles.
(a) With respect to the vehicle alterations it performs, an alterer:
(1) Has a duty to determine continued conformity of the altered vehicle with applicable Federal motor vehicle safety, Bumper, and Theft Prevention standards, and
(2) Assumes legal responsibility for all duties and liabilities for certification under the Vehicle Safety Act.
(b) The vehicle manufacturer's certification label and any information labels shall remain affixed to the vehicle and the alterer shall affix to the vehicle an additional label in the manner and location specified in § 567.4, in a manner that does not obscure any previously applied labels, and containing the following information:
(1) The statement: “This vehicle was altered by (individual or corporate name) in (month and year in which alterations were completed) and as altered it conforms to all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety, Bumper and Theft Prevention Standards affected by the alteration and in effect in (month, year).” The second date shall be no earlier than the date of manufacture of the certified vehicle (as specified on the certification label), and no later than the date alterations were completed.
(2) If the gross vehicle weight rating or any of the gross axle weight ratings of the vehicle as altered are different from those shown on the original certification label, the modified values shall be provided in the form specified in § 567.4(g)(3) and (4).
(3) If the vehicle as altered has a different type classification from that shown on the original certification label, the type as modified shall be provided.

Finding shops that do this is not always easy, but they are out there.
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Old 03-25-2021, 01:31 PM   #76
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[email protected] 'those that jump on......'

My apologies if you're being sarcastic, but I never see the weight police as being on the attack. It's an attempt to educate. I appreciated the education I received on this subject. Even though it was hard to take, I never took it as getting 'jumped' on. Embarrassed by my ignorance? You bet, but overall I received it as assistance being offered by those that know
I disagree with your statement. I was threatened to be kicked off this forum for challenging the weight police and discussing towing safely.

Anyway, I have two examples of F-350’s that have, it seems like a common, 3400 lb payload. Both very similar trucks except one is a long bed XLT and the other is the standard bed Lariet. Both are Crew Cab 2019 model Year. The long bed has only 3415 lbs 18 in tires. The SB has 3750 lb 20 in tires. If you do the numbers Ford can’t go to the 12,400 lb weight rating on the long bed because of the tire capacity. Also the LBed has Rear GAWR of 6780 while the SBed has a rear axle weight rating of 7230. You all know those axles aren’t different.

Both have essentially identical payloads. While my Ram is a long bed Longhorn 2020 model. 12,300 lb GVWR and a 4156 on payload. 7000 lb gawr.

Now if you were going to buy a Srw truck and your worried about payload, which one would ya pick?

But I also can show you that the 4156 lb payload on the Ram is no better than a F350 Ford at 3400 lb payload. Now, we can keep going on this one. What if I put super singles, which are 295/70R18’s at 4080 lbs per tire on the Ram? Could the Ram then claim a 5000 lb payload?

Answer is no. But if Ford put a 4200 lb rating on a one ton Srw, some might say this truck competes too closely to an F-450 that has a normal payload around 4800lbs.

So when you look at 2500 models, here’s the crux in my opinion, if someone is buying a 2500 and we catch him before they buy, I always recommend buying a 3500. If someone already has purchased a 2500, again in my opinion, I wouldn’t send them out to buy a new truck unless they are in the dually range for their fifth wheel.

I also recently saw a Ford F-350 with a 10,000 lb GVWR, I think Maryland, to get cheaper costs for licensing. Would someone say that truck is limited to 10,000 lbs GVWR?

I don’t think I kept it but I’ll see if I can find it again.

Peace.
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Old 03-25-2021, 01:40 PM   #77
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I have a question about using the cat scales when I go to weigh my rig which is a travel trailer unit should I drop the weight distribution equalizer bars to get a correct payload weight on my truck. 19 Ram 2500 Diesel 4x4 mega cab, Outback301UBH.
Late to the game, but here's my "procedure"...

1. When you get to the scale, DO NOT PARK ON THE SCALE. Park conveniently close, then go inside to talk to the scale master about what you want to do. That way, both of you will be aware of the situation and any limitations at that particular scale.

2. Drive onto the scale with tow vehicle front axle on pad #1, rear axle on pad #2 and both trailer axles on pad #3.

3. Weigh the rig. DO NOT MOVE THE RIG. Get out of the vehicle, loosen the WD bars but don't remove them. With the bars hanging, get back in the vehicle and weigh the rig a second time.

4. Tow the trailer off the scale, go to an out of the way location and disconnect the trailer.

5. Drive the tow vehicle onto the scale with the front axle on pad #1 and the rear axle on pad #2. Weigh "just the tow vehicle" and then drive off the scale and go inside to "settle up with the scale master.

You'll have a total of 3 weight slips. With the information on them, you can calculate all the weight scenarios necessary for towing.

As a note, don't change any "passenger positions" during the process. If there are a passenger in the vehicle for one weight, that passenger should be "in the vehicle for every weight".... The objective is to have "identical situations" for every weight slip. That way, there's no need to "adjust 150 pounds" because DW needed to go to the bathroom between weights. Her 150 pounds can make a significant difference in calculating tongue weights, hitch distribution weights and even vehicle payload weights.... So, keep them all the same....

As for price, most CAT scales charge $12 for the first weigh and $2.50 for each reweigh, so total cost should be $17.

DON'T FORGET TO GET YOUR COPY OF ALL THREE WEIGHT SLIPS. MAKE SURE THEY DO NOT GIVE YOU 3 COPIES OF THE LAST WEIGHT SLIP.
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Old 03-25-2021, 02:07 PM   #78
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Here's the answer to your 'DOT' question.
https://fifthwheelst.com/altering_ve...ification.html
You might want to drop the DOT baloney and pick up the NHTSA.
The DOT is part of the NHTSA. So no difference and no baloney. No original manufacturers specs are changed or re certified. The shop that does the mods/alteration must do so following DOT, or if you like NHTSA, specs. And the shop/alterer must be approved by the NHTSA. As I said, and as mentioned in your quoted article, they add a NEW label with the NEW GVWR, and new GRAWR. This new label also lists the name of the modifier. In the regulations it states the modifier is legally liable if they do not follow DOT, or NHTSA, regulations for the alteration/ modification.
From your quoted article:

An "Alterer" approved by NHTSA may modify vehicles following very strict guidelines. Upon completion of a vehicle alteration, an additional label must be applied near and not covering the Original Equipment Manufacturer's (OEM) Certification Label. The additional label may appear similar to the following example:

Here are the regs from the DOT/NHTSA website.

49 CFR § 567.7 - Requirements for persons who alter certified vehicles.
* CFR
* Table of Popular Names
prev next
§ 567.7 Requirements for persons who alter certified vehicles.
(a) With respect to the vehicle alterations it performs, an alterer:
(1) Has a duty to determine continued conformity of the altered vehicle with applicable Federal motor vehicle safety, Bumper, and Theft Prevention standards, and
(2) Assumes legal responsibility for all duties and liabilities for certification under the Vehicle Safety Act.
(b) The vehicle manufacturer's certification label and any information labels shall remain affixed to the vehicle and the alterer shall affix to the vehicle an additional label in the manner and location specified in § 567.4, in a manner that does not obscure any previously applied labels, and containing the following information:
(1) The statement: “This vehicle was altered by (individual or corporate name) in (month and year in which alterations were completed) and as altered it conforms to all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety, Bumper and Theft Prevention Standards affected by the alteration and in effect in (month, year).” The second date shall be no earlier than the date of manufacture of the certified vehicle (as specified on the certification label), and no later than the date alterations were completed.
(2) If the gross vehicle weight rating or any of the gross axle weight ratings of the vehicle as altered are different from those shown on the original certification label, the modified values shall be provided in the form specified in § 567.4(g)(3) and (4).
(3) If the vehicle as altered has a different type classification from that shown on the original certification label, the type as modified shall be provided.

Have some baloney!
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Old 03-25-2021, 02:23 PM   #79
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...

I also recently saw a Ford F-350 with a 10,000 lb GVWR, I think Maryland, to get cheaper costs for licensing. Would someone say that truck is limited to 10,000 lbs GVWR?

I don’t think I kept it but I’ll see if I can find it again.

Peace.
No need to go looking for the F250 9900/10000 or the F350 10000/11400 GVWR packages. They are located (as options) on the Ford website in the "build your truck" website: https://shop.ford.com/build/superdut...RW.350.CBC.%5D

Depending on the configuration on Super Duty trucks (engine options/wheelbase options/drive options/etc) the GVWR for F250's is either 9900 or 10000 and F350's range from 10000/11300/11400/11500 based on how the truck is ordered. All F350's can be ordered with the 10K GVWR and all F250's can be ordered with either the 9900 or the 10K package.

The differences in packages (9900 and 10000) has more to do with licensing, registration, fees, taxes, regulatory issues than it does with payload, GVWR capability and truck performance... It's like having a motorcycle endorsement on your driver's license. Purely "administrative" in nature.
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Old 03-25-2021, 03:04 PM   #80
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Tampa Spring, in Tampa Fl. I am just stating the fact that trucks can be modified safely and legally to carry heavier loads than what originally came out of the factory, such as 5ers. The argument that you have to buy a new truck to get to safe payloads is blatantly false. There are folks out there that have done the same certified modifications and have done their homework. I’ll go with what DOT says is safe and legal over the weight police on this forum. When I am ready for a new TV and if I still have the same RV, I’ll probably go for a 3500. My truck has been inspected by Texas DOT and they agreed 100% I am good to go as modified. There are limits as to how much modification you can do to carry heavier loads, and they are regulated by the DOT. No feelings hurt here. Just stating facts and I have the documentation to back them up.

Fyi, here are the regulations right out of the DOT web site;

49 CFR § 567.7 - Requirements for persons who alter certified vehicles.
* CFR
* Table of Popular Names
prev next
§ 567.7 Requirements for persons who alter certified vehicles.
(a) With respect to the vehicle alterations it performs, an alterer:
(1) Has a duty to determine continued conformity of the altered vehicle with applicable Federal motor vehicle safety, Bumper, and Theft Prevention standards, and
(2) Assumes legal responsibility for all duties and liabilities for certification under the Vehicle Safety Act.
(b) The vehicle manufacturer's certification label and any information labels shall remain affixed to the vehicle and the alterer shall affix to the vehicle an additional label in the manner and location specified in § 567.4, in a manner that does not obscure any previously applied labels, and containing the following information:
(1) The statement: “This vehicle was altered by (individual or corporate name) in (month and year in which alterations were completed) and as altered it conforms to all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety, Bumper and Theft Prevention Standards affected by the alteration and in effect in (month, year).” The second date shall be no earlier than the date of manufacture of the certified vehicle (as specified on the certification label), and no later than the date alterations were completed.
(2) If the gross vehicle weight rating or any of the gross axle weight ratings of the vehicle as altered are different from those shown on the original certification label, the modified values shall be provided in the form specified in § 567.4(g)(3) and (4).
(3) If the vehicle as altered has a different type classification from that shown on the original certification label, the type as modified shall be provided.

Finding shops that do this is not always easy, but they are out there.


Mike, just as I said; dry, silly and nothing new.

The portion in red is again "your" assessment. A larger truck is always recommended because it makes sense. I don't recall anyone saying there is "no other way" nor endorsing the route you took. You did a one off and are happy with it I guess - I would not be. Why in the world would you spend $2500 to mod a truck to be "something else" when you could have bought that "something else" up front for and additional $500 - and it would have been built properly from the ground up...ALL components?

As far as the weight police saying what you have is "unsafe" or "illegal", I don't recall that. Do you have examples? Ill advised IMO? Yes. Best route to take IMO? No. Does it give you every component that the OEM package would have provided? No.

I could take a $500 Yugo and have it built into a Range Rover for $200k. I could buy a new Range Rover for less than $100k. Why would I do that? No one questions that you can as far as I know. Questioning why would be another thing entirely.
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Danny and Susan, wife of 55 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
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