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Old 07-13-2020, 08:02 AM   #41
BigToe
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
My guess is the two truck's your comparing have different gear ratios. If a 100 lb payload difference is a deal breaker on a 1 ton truck than maybe you need to think about less trailer.

I don't think most people choose a diesel for payload. There are as many opinions/arguments over gas vs diesel as there is over Coke vs Pepsi. Personally I wouldn't consider a larger trailer with a gas powered tow vehicle if I was towing a lot of miles or in hilly areas. The gas proponents can talk all day about the newer engines tolerating higher rpms all they want but here's the elephant in the room, at what load?

If you want a fair comparison of an engine that's under a constant heavy torque load look at the marine industry. Once you start cranking up over 4k for long periods you will see engine rebuilds increase in frequency. Ask anyone that's run a class A or large class C gasser and not only will they complain about the terrible fuel mileage the transmissions give up first then the engines. Moder gassers have gotten better but still don't compare to a diesel drive train IMHO.

It's not uncommon to see a diesel-powered rig with 200k miles that's still going strong. Haven't seen a gasser do that yet. I've towed with both gas and diesel and to me the diesel is hands down the winner. I don't understand the "expense" argument or the "don't tow that far or that often" argument either. To my thinking, spending $60-$70K or more for a large fiver and "only use it a few weekends a year" is a collaso waste of money but that's just me.

Bottom line it's your money your choice. Doing your homework, weighting all your options is the smart move.
100 lbs isn’t a deal breaker and I don’t plan to get a camper over 12k lbs max loaded and it won’t be in the $60k range either. Like I said before I’m just trying to see what I should be looking for. I’m new to this entire process so when people say payload is what matters and get a diesel then those two combat themselves due to the higher weight of diesel. I appreciate everyone’s input and will take everything said into consideration. Im not retired and am only allowed a certain amount of vacation per year so some of us are forced to only camp a few times per year. I’m simply posting what I’m finding out during this process.
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Old 07-13-2020, 08:10 AM   #42
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Just checked on the specs of a 1 ton diesel and lost a hundred pounds on payload. I hate this process. It’s smoke and mirrors. Truck says it can pull an additional 5k lbs over the gasser but in actuality it’s does less than the gasser due to payload.
I agree, it is kind of a smoke and mirrors thing. When you look at the gas models it looks like you have all this towing capacity and you do, sort of. Depending on the options you may have a high payload on the gasser because that engine weighs much less than the diesel engine. But the reality is that you'll be so underpowered that it won't feel like the truck is up to the task. On the other hand you can get a truck with the diesel so gussied up with options that there isn't much payload left to tow what you need to. That's one of the reasons I opt for the dually. My payload is 4529 pounds and if I didn't have the crew cab it would be over 5000 pounds. Much to consider.

Understand though, my dually is also my daily driver when I'm home, so short trips, long trips, it doesn't really matter. I swore when I got this truck that if the emissions or exhaust filter ever gave me any problems I would do the delete. 190000 mile and I still have the OEM emissions system on it.
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Old 07-13-2020, 08:35 AM   #43
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I also went for the diesel. This was my first and I was a little worried about the additional maintenance, DEF and other horror stories that get traded around. The reality is that today's diesel is not your father's diesel. The DEF is a minor inconvenience at most (IMO) and keeps the exhaust clean and odor free.

The tow capacity is more than I need, but leaves room for a larger trailer later.

The only real down side that I see to a diesel is the additional up-front cost.

You really don't know what you're missing until you try it. There's just nothing like towing with a good diesel power plant. It just pulls and doesn't heave breathe hard

As far as a diesel truck having a lower payload - well, that's true. One comment made it sound like going with the diesel removes a significant portion of the payload - this is not true. Just make sure you select a truck that will support your trailer profile. I went with the truck I did because it was more than large enough for my current trailer and any future trailer I may upgrade to in the future.
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Old 07-13-2020, 09:26 AM   #44
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100 lbs isnít a deal breaker and I donít plan to get a camper over 12k lbs max loaded and it wonít be in the $60k range either. Like I said before Iím just trying to see what I should be looking for. Iím new to this entire process so when people say payload is what matters and get a diesel then those two combat themselves due to the higher weight of diesel. I appreciate everyoneís input and will take everything said into consideration. Im not retired and am only allowed a certain amount of vacation per year so some of us are forced to only camp a few times per year. Iím simply posting what Iím finding out during this process.

BigToe, as one just looking into this stuff it does sound like smoke and mirrors; one of the reasons so many folks get confused and sometimes irritated.

In most cases getting the diesel is a trade off basically; a heavier diesel engine that will tow x lbs. much easier than a gas engine but generally with less payload. You also deal with the up front cost of the engine/drivetrain itself which one has to personally determine if their needs warrant.

You have to either KNOW what trailer you are going to buy so you have specifics to spec a truck (knowing if a bigger trailer is in your future is beneficial) or KNOW the truck and be willing to spec a trailer to fit its capabilities regardless if the trailer is inadequate or not. To do anything different puts you directly on the path of so many others that start the leap frog game of bigger trailer/truck, unhappy, repeat. We are here to help, not aggravate so keep shooting the questions and we will help all we can. Hopefully you can be one of the lucky ones that "gets it right the first time".
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Old 07-13-2020, 10:31 AM   #45
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I have no idea what the fuel economy on a large gasser is. My 2008 2500HD GMC Sierra Duramax diesel on short trips from home to town around 5 miles uses 16Litres per 100KM's which translates to 14.7 mi/gal(US).
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Old 07-13-2020, 10:56 AM   #46
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I'm late to the party, but a number of members have posted "DEF is a pain" or similar comments... Here's my take on diesel power and "short commutes" (consistently operating the vehicle on trips of less than a couple of miles)...

Diesel engines produce significantly less heat than gas engines, so they warm up to operating temperature very slowly. Not warming the oil will prevent it from "burning off/steaming off" condensation in the oil system. That produces sludge and can be harmful to small oil passages in modern engines....

That problem, in my opinion, is secondary to the "DEF is a pain" issue. Diesel engines "burn off carbon" only when they're HOT (at operating temperature). Most "road diesels" have a carbon collection device and a catalytic converter. When the vehicle is below operating temperature, it produces increased carbon emissions, those are "collected/stored in the carbon collector"... When the vehcle reaches operating temperature, the carbon production goes down, so there's less to collect. Consistent operation at low engine temperatures will increase carbon production as the vehicle never reaches operating temps...

The "rub" comes with that "DEF is a pain" issue.... DEF is used to burn the carbon collected during engine operation. DEF is injected into the catalytic converter to burn that carbon. The ONLY way the catalytic converter/DEF system can work is with the HIGH HEAT of normal operating temperatures and the added heat of increased diesel fuel injection. Now, the bad part: When operated "only a couple of miles on a local commute" the emissions system never reaches a temperature to "burn off the carbon, DEF or no DEF... That becomes a problem with "short commutes".

We live in northern Michigan and it's 20 miles to town. During the winter, the truck "barely warms up" on that 20 mile trip and about the time the computer tries to start a DEF cycle, we're "at WalMart and shut the truck down" That cancels the DEF cycle and the carbon builds up in the carbon filter. Do that "all winter" or "do short commutes all winter" and you're going to damage the emissions system.

Chip commented that he "takes the long way home plus a couple of extended mileage trips monthly. That's all it takes to keep the DEF cycles doing what they need to do.... If the ONLY driving is going to be a 2 mile trip/shutdown/2 miles home environment, then the DEF cycle will NEVER initiate, and you're going to have problems in a year or so.

We solved our DEF cycle problem by making sure we drive the truck at least 100 miles (without shutting it down) every month. Invariably, EVERY one of those trips, about 25 miles into it, the momentary DEF CYCLE notice will flash on the screen. In the winter with "near zero temps" it takes about 35-75 miles for the DEF cycle to complete.

So, if on an outside chance, you're going to consider a diesel. Add into the operating environment, a longer trip, at least monthly. Otherwise, buy the extended warranty because the emissions warranty expires at 50K miles, unlike the powertrain warranty which lasts for 60K or the engine warranty (does not include the DEF system) which is 100K.....
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Old 07-13-2020, 12:34 PM   #47
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The confusion regarding truck capabilities lies in the myriad of factors that determine payload; generally the engine power isn't the short pole in the tent and now days the brakes and transmissions have come a long way. When you see a high payload, it is on a stripped, regular cab, 2 wheel drive with a gas engine. Why? That stuff just weighs less than guzzied up trucks... all the things that make trucks civilized eat away at payload as they don't generally change the suspenion, engine or brakes. A Ford Lariat model will have lower payload than an XL model. While the diesel may give a truck more pulling grunt, it is HEAVIER and the 4WD transfer case is another thing that helps subtract available payload.



When you are out shopping and looking at one tons, if you can avoid the higher end models and go 2WD (most folks can't be without a crew cab as they drag junk and younguns) but minimize on all the gee-gaws you will find the payload is significantly higher... walk through a dealership and look at the stickers and not brochures. I buy used and looked for an XL (strippo) model and added a universal power lock kit and a stereo with a big screen for a backup camera and don't have power anything else (well power steering/brakes) and my truck has really decent payload as a result. I would also get a long bed to minimize 5th wheel hauling issues (you can smash your cab when turning to sharp with a short bed).
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Old 07-13-2020, 05:45 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
The "rub" comes with that "DEF is a pain" issue.... DEF is used to burn the carbon collected during engine operation. DEF is injected into the catalytic converter to burn that carbon.
I am late to this also but this is not quite right. The carbon collection is preformed by the DPF system(Diesel Particulate Filter). The DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) system is a completely separate system. DEF is sprayed into the exhaust stream of diesel vehicles and SCR catalyst to break down dangerous NOx emissions into harmless nitrogen and water.

The carbon buildup is burned off by injecting diesel into the DPF and that burns off the carbon at a high temp which usually requires the engine to be at operating temp and being driven until the soot is burned off.
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Old 07-13-2020, 05:54 PM   #49
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I am late to this also but this is not quite right. The carbon collection is preformed by the DPF system(Diesel Particulate Filter). The DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) system is a completely separate system. DEF is sprayed into the exhaust stream of diesel vehicles and SCR catalyst to break down dangerous NOx emissions into harmless nitro gen and water.

The carbon buildup is burned off by injecting diesel into the DPF and that burns off the carbon at a high temp which usually requires the engine to be a operating temp and being driven until the soot is burned off.


And therein is the reason I love my gassers....
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Old 07-13-2020, 06:14 PM   #50
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100 lbs isnít a deal breaker and I donít plan to get a camper over 12k lbs max loaded and it wonít be in the $60k range either. Like I said before Iím just trying to see what I should be looking for. Iím new to this entire process so when people say payload is what matters and get a diesel then those two combat themselves due to the higher weight of diesel. I appreciate everyoneís input and will take everything said into consideration. Im not retired and am only allowed a certain amount of vacation per year so some of us are forced to only camp a few times per year. Iím simply posting what Iím finding out during this process.
One big trip and several small trips does not warrant a diesel power plant. Get the truck based on your usage, not someone else' based on their usage.
personally if i wanted a trailer that size and weight I would go for a 1 ton gasser.
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Old 07-13-2020, 06:14 PM   #51
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As our infamous member Javi once said ď Go ahead. Buy the gasser and just drive around the RV park with your windows down making a sound like a diesel.Ē
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Old 07-13-2020, 06:16 PM   #52
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I am late to this also but this is not quite right. The carbon collection is preformed by the DPF system(Diesel Particulate Filter). The DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) system is a completely separate system. DEF is sprayed into the exhaust stream of diesel vehicles and SCR catalyst to break down dangerous NOx emissions into harmless nitro gen and water.

The carbon buildup is burned off by injecting diesel into the DPF and that burns off the carbon at a high temp which usually requires the engine to be a operating temp and being driven until the soot is burned off.
And it does an amazing job! Even in our class 8 International, no diesel smell whatsoever! And no failure in 592000+ miles.
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Old 07-13-2020, 06:34 PM   #53
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BigToe, as one just looking into this stuff it does sound like smoke and mirrors; one of the reasons so many folks get confused and sometimes irritated.

In most cases getting the diesel is a trade off basically; a heavier diesel engine that will tow x lbs. much easier than a gas engine but generally with less payload. You also deal with the up front cost of the engine/drivetrain itself which one has to personally determine if their needs warrant.

You have to either KNOW what trailer you are going to buy so you have specifics to spec a truck (knowing if a bigger trailer is in your future is beneficial) or KNOW the truck and be willing to spec a trailer to fit its capabilities regardless if the trailer is inadequate or not. To do anything different puts you directly on the path of so many others that start the leap frog game of bigger trailer/truck, unhappy, repeat. We are here to help, not aggravate so keep shooting the questions and we will help all we can. Hopefully you can be one of the lucky ones that "gets it right the first time".
Thanks so much. I’m now into a process that’s become frustrating instead of fun like I had anticipated. I acknowledge I’m the reason for that due to my limited knowledge. One of the issues I’m running into is that since the truck manufacturers were shut down to make defibulators there’s a heavy duty truck shortage. I’ve sent info requests to dealers in 5 different states now just due to not finding anything closer that’s what I’m looking for or in my price range. I should of picked out a camper first and went from there but not having the vehicle to tow it I was focused on that.

I thank everyone for all the advice. It’s greatly appreciated and all of you have probably saved me a huge headache and I can’t be thankful enough.
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Old 07-13-2020, 06:40 PM   #54
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I am late to this also but this is not quite right. The carbon collection is preformed by the DPF system(Diesel Particulate Filter). The DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) system is a completely separate system. DEF is sprayed into the exhaust stream of diesel vehicles and SCR catalyst to break down dangerous NOx emissions into harmless nitrogen and water.

The carbon buildup is burned off by injecting diesel into the DPF and that burns off the carbon at a high temp which usually requires the engine to be at operating temp and being driven until the soot is burned off.
And that was the point I was trying to convey: If you only drive the truck a couple of miles in the morning and a couple of miles in the afternoon and a long trip in the summer, you're not going to be able to "clear the DPF of carbon. Not only does the engine "burn dirtier when cold" it "can't clean itself if it never warms up"... Had you read the "rest of the post" rather than just that one sentence, you'd have noted I commented on exactly what you said, in a bit different wording, but .....
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Old 07-13-2020, 06:51 PM   #55
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I'm late to the party, but a number of members have posted "DEF is a pain" or similar comments... Here's my take on diesel power and "short commutes" (consistently operating the vehicle on trips of less than a couple of miles)...

Diesel engines produce significantly less heat than gas engines, so they warm up to operating temperature very slowly. Not warming the oil will prevent it from "burning off/steaming off" condensation in the oil system. That produces sludge and can be harmful to small oil passages in modern engines....

That problem, in my opinion, is secondary to the "DEF is a pain" issue. Diesel engines "burn off carbon" only when they're HOT (at operating temperature). Most "road diesels" have a carbon collection device and a catalytic converter. When the vehicle is below operating temperature, it produces increased carbon emissions, those are "collected/stored in the carbon collector"... When the vehcle reaches operating temperature, the carbon production goes down, so there's less to collect. Consistent operation at low engine temperatures will increase carbon production as the vehicle never reaches operating temps...

The "rub" comes with that "DEF is a pain" issue.... DEF is used to burn the carbon collected during engine operation. DEF is injected into the catalytic converter to burn that carbon. The ONLY way the catalytic converter/DEF system can work is with the HIGH HEAT of normal operating temperatures and the added heat of increased diesel fuel injection. Now, the bad part: When operated "only a couple of miles on a local commute" the emissions system never reaches a temperature to "burn off the carbon, DEF or no DEF... That becomes a problem with "short commutes".

We live in northern Michigan and it's 20 miles to town. During the winter, the truck "barely warms up" on that 20 mile trip and about the time the computer tries to start a DEF cycle, we're "at WalMart and shut the truck down" That cancels the DEF cycle and the carbon builds up in the carbon filter. Do that "all winter" or "do short commutes all winter" and you're going to damage the emissions system.

Chip commented that he "takes the long way home plus a couple of extended mileage trips monthly. That's all it takes to keep the DEF cycles doing what they need to do.... If the ONLY driving is going to be a 2 mile trip/shutdown/2 miles home environment, then the DEF cycle will NEVER initiate, and you're going to have problems in a year or so.

We solved our DEF cycle problem by making sure we drive the truck at least 100 miles (without shutting it down) every month. Invariably, EVERY one of those trips, about 25 miles into it, the momentary DEF CYCLE notice will flash on the screen. In the winter with "near zero temps" it takes about 35-75 miles for the DEF cycle to complete.

So, if on an outside chance, you're going to consider a diesel. Add into the operating environment, a longer trip, at least monthly. Otherwise, buy the extended warranty because the emissions warranty expires at 50K miles, unlike the powertrain warranty which lasts for 60K or the engine warranty (does not include the DEF system) which is 100K.....
Thank you so much for this. Much better info than the “don’t get diesel with short drives” response with no other info explaining why or the other crowd that swears gassers are to tonka toys. This info is what I’ve been looking for. I now know the why and the how to prevent it if I go this way.
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Old 07-14-2020, 09:24 AM   #56
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Another question. When the towing label on the truck says max tongue weight for gooseneck trailering does this mean the 25 percent of the trailer weight can’t exceed this number even if it’s ok with payload or?? Most of what I’m seeing is between 2500-300 lbs that’s noted. That’s puts more restriction than payload. See picture I posted on first page for example.
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Old 07-19-2020, 07:53 AM   #57
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Go with the 1ton long bed diesel. It will get you around 14 to 16 mpg in the city. And 18 to20 mpg on the highway not pulling anything. It will get 1o to 13 pulling the camper. And if you decide on a bigger camper later you will have a truck that can put it
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Old 07-19-2020, 08:20 AM   #58
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And therein is the reason I love my gassers....
X2 😁. They talked me into a 1 ton when I was going through this same thing last year. Iím soooo glad I got a 1 ton. I bought a 2019 Chevy 6.0 gas HD with 4:10 rear end. I pull between 12500 and 13000 depending on how we have it loaded. I donít regret not buying a diesel at all! Iím still under max weight and it gets me where we want to go.
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Old 07-19-2020, 08:48 AM   #59
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Just a thought on the Diesel trucks. Because of the screen installed for emissions, a short commute will not burn off the screen and could clogg up and cause major problems. They require freeway speeds on a regular basis. My father in law burned up a couple turbos in his 2008 Dodge that way.
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Old 07-19-2020, 08:55 AM   #60
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Thanks Gegrad, I also posted specs of a one ton gasser with 3913 payload. You think I would be safe with a 13k max fifth wheel with this one ton with occasional Colorado trips? This would exceed max pin weight noted by the truck. How big a issue is that?
Sure just stay far away from mountains at all times. If you are talking mountains and passes you need a diesel.
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