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Old 01-16-2020, 12:43 PM   #21
chuckster57
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Originally Posted by RET.LEO View Post
Did GD get worse after Winn. bought them?
I worked at a dealership for 5 years and they carried the GD line. I can say the quality didnít change, but you could see the design and paint schemes influence. Would I buy one.... yes, almost did twice just couldnít take the mistreatment from the sales staff.
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Old 01-16-2020, 02:14 PM   #22
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Interesting to read the initial comment and all of the replies concerning the manufacture of our RVs.
I am on RV number 6 having owned mostly towables and one truck camper of differing manufacturers.
Two towables I had were notorious for plumbing leaks. Easy fix. One towable, a Cougar was a nightmare of issues from the terrible cable slide system to the power supply. A fridge that did not cool sufficiently and a forced air furnace that didnít force much air (with the exception of exhaust outside). An ďarctic insulationĒ package that was far from being considered insulation.
So, after possibly giving Keystone another chance, we passed on their Montana for our extended living. I found many of the same design issues with Montana as I did with our former Cougar. So, we opted for a manufacturer that I had never heard of. And, yes, there are some things I have repaired (easier to repair a piece of trim that take it back to the dealer to fix-cost of fuel) but other than that I have a much better experience snowbirding in the fifth wheel be bought from Brand X than Keystone.
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Old 01-16-2020, 02:16 PM   #23
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Yes, GD has the same manufacturing processes as many other manufacturers. I bought a 2019 Solitude, a GD/Winnebago product. In all of the RVs I have owned the Solitude has been the best so far.
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Old 01-16-2020, 02:19 PM   #24
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Some people on the GD FB sites claim there is a difference. I have talked with a factory rep and he told me that Winnebago has a ďhands-offĒ approach and nothing has changed. So, ya know what they say about opinions....
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Old 01-16-2020, 03:43 PM   #25
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Winnebago is just the owner of Grand Design and just recently Newmar, not involved in production. Same as Thor owns many companies: Jayco, Entegra, Airstream etc etc
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Old 01-16-2020, 04:44 PM   #26
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I agree with whoever said this is not JUST a Keystone problem. This is a customer problem. We as customers keeping buying homes that are NOT as advertised and we remain silent when we are on the hook for solving quality or design problems.
100% right. And the thing I don't understand is those that defend the industry, and say it's not their fault..... In fact, I am tired of hearing it. But, I count myself among the guilty customers that LBlack is talking about.....If I didn't love camping so much I would never put up with crap the industry puts out.
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:05 PM   #27
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Here we go

They're all lemons. It's just the way it is. You can read my post and all about my 2018 Cougar. WAY too many issues to list. Every window replaced and it's currently having the entire roof replaced. All at warranty. You got to fight to get your issues resolved but with a good dealership on your side you can win.

Good luck.
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:20 PM   #28
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For what it's worth, we have had very few issues with our trailer and when something happens I just fix it. Between shingles, siding, windows, lawn, landscaping, driveway, doors, cabinets, sinks, toilets, appliances, carpet, tile, sheet rock, painting, and general maintenance, our regular house has been a lot more labor intensive and we don't drag that one down the road every weekend. :-)
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:30 PM   #29
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"I agree with whoever said this is not JUST a Keystone problem. This is a customer problem. We as customers keeping buying homes that are NOT as advertised and we remain silent when we are on the hook for solving quality or design problem"

Excerpt from LBlack post 18.

100% right. And the thing I don't understand is those that defend the industry, and say it's not their fault..... In fact, I am tired of hearing it. But, I count myself among the guilty customers that LBlack is talking about.....If I didn't love camping so much I would never put up with crap the industry puts out.

Post from RWRiley #26


LBlack's post is very long and outlines a myriad of issues with the RV all the while saying it should be built like a S&B for 150 sq.ft. Sorry, don't get that. Now I've not priced a new home in his area but I have in many areas....not such expensive areas BUT 150 doesn't get in the picture. In my little off the wall, unwanted berg in W TX you can't build a NEW house for less than about 210 sq. ft. That is of about August of last year. When I retired I swore, SWORE I would not stay in my town. Let's think about what that would cost; Lubbock, TX - 225sq. ft.; Reeds Spring, MO; 250 sq. ft. (5 yrs ago); Wakulla County FL: avg. 300 sq. ft. and the list goes on and on because I was actively pursuing building a new home. So for real life in most places 150 won't be accurate.

Now we are discussing building a S&B sitting on a slab with the same roofing, appliance etc. requirements vs an RV....but wait, they don't go down a highway at 70mph, it doesn't have running gear to gripe about. That foundation isn't "bent" up and down every time it is set up, it's not subjected to all kinds of torque from twisting and turning...again the list goes on and on. Plus, it is built so you can actually "hook it up" to a tow vehicle and take off down the road. Try that with your S&B.

RWRiley's statement is just contradictory from the gitgo. I read most every post on here. I've not seen anyone "defending" the industry; there are those that understand it and know you have to live with it if you want to RV. Others, as RWRiley and every other person with a mindset like that, continue to purchase the product knowing what it is then rail against the wind about the poor quality blaming who? Themselves.

I guess I don't get it. Buying an RV is a known situation. Either avoid it or join in and accept it. It does absolutely zero good for the owner or anyone else to just rant about things you knew you were getting...to what end? Will all that change the direction of RV manufacturing? Absolutely not. It's pointless and has no objective. IMO if you hate it, if you feel like you made a poor choice knowingly but can't accept it...divest yourself of it. But don't keep buying them, enjoying them then carry on about how much you hate them. As RWRiley said...yes, I am tired of hearing it.
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:41 PM   #30
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If my grandfather was still alive, he'd reads this thread, walk out back by the chicken coop, spit his tobacco juice toward the chickens and say, "Damn, boy, listen to them bantie hens, standin' by the fence and bitchin' cause they ain't got nothin' to bitch about but each other and how hard it is to lay them damn little eggs. . If they was full size chickens, they'd know how easy they got it with them bantie eggs"
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Old 01-16-2020, 05:55 PM   #31
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What I read in the posts I referenced and those like them is like going in the shop, turn on the bandsaw, know it's as sharp as can be, decide to slide my fingers through it then raise cain because it just cut them off....the blade's too sharp, the band was running to fast...those folks that made that thing ought to be sued....What??
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Old 01-16-2020, 06:22 PM   #32
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Comparing a travel trailer to a stick built house is impossible. That's been covered. As for cost per square foot. The 15'9" Airstream Bambi starts at $55,ooo and goes up from there. That's, by my calculations, about $605 a square foot and it still comes with a warranty to fix what breaks.... But there's always "free coffee" in the waiting room.

Luxury (quality) fifth wheels in the 40' range start at about $150,000 and go up from there. They also have a warranty. One of the "occasional members" of this forum traded his Keystone for a DRV, traded that for a New Horizons (custom luxury fifth wheel) and it also came with a warranty. BTW, he knows the factory service department supervision on a first name basis.... Trust me when I say that you can buy 5 or 6 Passports for the price of a single New Horizons, warranty included..... Oh, yes, a 40' fifth wheel priced at $175,000 is roughly $547 a square foot, so comparing to a "builders spec house" at $150 a square foot (around here it's more like $250/sqft) is like comparing a Hideout to a Airstream.....

Heck, last I heard, even Rolls Royce has a warranty service department at every dealership, so …..
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:20 AM   #33
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I only had 13 Items on my 2018 2670BH...to start out. Took it back to the dealer after it's 30 day break in and it sat on their lot for weeks/months with nothing on the list fixed and my calls going unanswered. They caused more problems with it than they repaired and the list grew. So I feel your pain. Just decided to fix things myself. At least now I know they're done right, or at a minimum to my satisfaction.
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Old 01-17-2020, 05:36 AM   #34
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Don't know what 'issues' you have, minor? major?



But the part about getting your trailer replaced, Montana did replaced our new 5th wheel within 6 months of our purchase. But, our issue was frame flexing....they had it at their shop in Goshen, IN and replaced a complete wall and they couldn't fix it so...a new one.


So, RVs do get replaced....at times. But don't expect it to be changed out because of minor issues.


I figure your dealer will be able to address most of your issues.
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Old 01-17-2020, 06:05 AM   #35
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I usually stay away from controversial post but having been on the other side working for a major boat company with 2 different brand and types of boats. I have empathy for customers with problems with there products. One boat line was a HIGH END offshore fishing boats and the other a pleasure line of boats. I was the customer service / warranty manager. and was over quality control department. I started off in the grinding room and worked my way up to regional sales manager so I had first hand experience on how things SHOULD BE BUILT.
When my phone rang I picked it up the same way no matter which boat customer called . ( thank goodness the internet wasn't around back then) Yes there were customer warranty problems that would Need Attention and the dealership would need to take care of it. 75% of the time the dealer would fix it . We would send the parts to them and my transport would bring back the old parts on there next delivery there. If it was a major problem we would backhaul the boat to the factory and fix it or replace it . Sounds simple enough. Well it wasnít !
The problems a lot of times was caused by the customer ,like bilge pumps for a example people left it on and the water would get pumped out then itís sat running until it overheated and stopped working. We sent out 100ís over the year and the manufacture swopped them out. Now the problem arises at the dealership as they wanted us to pay there normal mechanic shop rate to fix it and that wasnít going to happen especially when a shop guy would R & R them (making minimum wage most times) and they would receive a set amount. However the biggest problem was the some dealers just DIDN'T WANT TO DO WARRANTY WORK PERIOD!!! They just wanted to sell boats, MAKE THERE MONEY and could care less about the customer after they couldnít see the trailer brake lights when the customer left. We also had dealers that took care of the customer fixed what they needed to and there the ones that were in business for years, passing the dealership down the family tree. So you see itís not just the mfg. Problems but who they bought the boat from. Customers would drive from say New York to buy a boat from a Fl. Dealer because they would save a lot of $$$$$. Then they would expect a dealer near them to fix any problems they might have. So tell me this doesnít happen in all types of purchases. We all want to save money but it comes with a cost and thatís where a lot of problems happen.
Yes theres quality control to help eliminate problems before the boat left but then the customer gets there new boat and run it balls to the wall through some sloppy seas day after day and wonder why the cabin cabinets would get damaged. I fished tournaments all over the East Coast and I did everything to make sure I would be the first one to a bait pod 10 miles away just so future customers would see how good the boat preformed and hopefully buy one. Little did they know I had a pile of broken parts stowed away and when I brought the boat back the employees bitched because they had to fix it . This is one way it helped us build better boats eliminating production problems before they would happen. I donít know how the RV manufactures try to improve there products but the bottom line is buy your product from the best dealership you can near you as the end result will be better in the long run.
Iím learning a lot here being a new camper and it has helped to eliminate a lot of things on my almost new camper that doesnít Have any warranty. I have had it for 2 months now and our first trip is next month ( just got my tow vehicle recently) and have worked on it adding accessories, rewiring front end, cleaning ,waxing and figuring out as much as I can. I knew going into this there would be Large costs adding things we wanted and need. I saved a lot of money buying a almost new camper ( previous owner only had it 6 months and as far as I could see they probably hardly never used. So Iím hoping preventative maintenance and time working on it will pay off thanks to all of you.
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:26 AM   #36
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I sure am a big supporter of the idea that preventative maintenance is the key to the owning a RV or boat. Also a car or house, but not to the same degree.
Without what we call PM at work. Any RV will be crap and worthless in a few years depending what part of the country you live in. The "I will fix it when it breaks" is to costly in my mind.
Of course you need a good RV to start with, to get that, do a complete PDI.
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Old 01-17-2020, 07:26 PM   #37
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I feel for the OP having so many issues with his RV. But.. itís a home on wheels that takes a beating from the road ways, temp changes, etc..

GD isnít any better, neither is FR, nor Jayco... big issues to me would be appliance failures, frame issues, cracks in the sides, electrical wiring...

Cabinet doors coming loose, trim moulding , etc are ďnormalĒ occurrences you just have to learn to be prepared for. Learn how to fix thins, be proactive, educate yourself on how each appliance works, how to repair, etc...

My latest RV IS A 2014.. Took back to dealership one time for stress cracks on the rear cap.. Repairs were completed .. no further occurrences.

Latest repair on my 2014 was removing the inadequate SM screws used to hold the awning rear rail on to the filon side wall.. used tri lock rivets.. it wonít come loose again and is a permanent repair.

With resources like this group, Utube videos, common sense and some basic mechanical and electrical skill sets the average RV owner should be able to keep his RV in good shape for many years.

YMMV
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Old 01-19-2020, 01:04 PM   #38
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Excerpt from sourdough post 29.
...I guess I don't get it. Buying an RV is a known situation. Either avoid it or join in and accept it. It does absolutely zero good for the owner or anyone else to just rant about things you knew you were getting...to what end? Will all that change the direction of RV manufacturing? Absolutely not. It's pointless and has no objective. IMO if you hate it, if you feel like you made a poor choice knowingly but can't accept it...divest yourself of it. But don't keep buying them, enjoying them then carry on about how much you hate them. As RWRiley said...yes, I am tired of hearing it.
Well said! Looks like the OP last checked in the day after asking his question. Lots of good responses - probably not what he wanted to hear.

For poster #18, I'd recommend you redo your cost/square foot analysis and compare the build quality of a Keystone RV to a hand-built Bentley 4 door sedan. If you are going to compare things that are wildly different, might as well get really wild.
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Old 03-30-2020, 09:41 PM   #39
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Well then... High fives to ya!!!
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Old 03-31-2020, 05:45 AM   #40
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Way to go. Nice to hear of a good ending now and then, especially now.
Is it the same model and year?
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