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Old 04-10-2019, 07:36 PM   #1
sourdough
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Dealers, RVs, Tow Vehicle Weights

Weights are an ongoing subject of discussion and rightfully so. Discussions around the comments of "the dealer" said it would be OK; the "salesman" said it would be OK abound. As most should know, those folks are there to sell you somethingÖ.not determine if you, or your vehicle, are qualified to carry a specific load.

Case in point; spent the morning/afternoon looking at various 5th wheels. Asked for a seasoned salesman I knew. Low key; very knowledgeable about the RVs, straightforward and honest. I told him that weight was a consideration because I was going to buy a new truck predicated on the trailer we chose, if any. As we discussed various units the number he threw out for weight was the dry weight...every time. I told him my current payload, what I figured for pin weight and that it would be based off of gvw - and THAT would determine what I bought for a truck....as should everyone else.

I spent several hours there and I asked, everytime, what the gvw was because he recited the dry weight every time. As we went here and there I talked to him pretty much constantly about the importance of weights and not trying to steer folks to units that were too big. I showed him the stickers, gvw and axle ratings and how that related to the tow truck ratings for payload and gvw...on the door.. He's generally their top salesman and has been there longer than the others. The conversations we had were a first for him...he was indoctrinated to sell...using a "selling" number. Super nice guy; very open to listening to what I was saying. I asked him to keep the numbers I mentioned in mind when talking to potential customers and he said he would - I think he will.

A story from today to just illustrate to anyone that thinks the "salesman" said it was OK....is OK. As well intentioned as they may be, they have "their" agenda...as a buyer you should have yours - the safety of your family. Sometimes at odds with the salesmans idea of "taking care of you". Just food for thought.
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Old 04-10-2019, 08:09 PM   #2
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Danny, That is really sad, with the current compliance stickers GVWR is easy to get while on the lot, the dry would require some math. While I have found when looking at brochures the DRY Weight and Dry pin were the easy numbers to find, many times requiring math to get GVWR.
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Old 04-10-2019, 08:39 PM   #3
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The way the stickers were set up on the side it gave me gvw, carrying capacity and axle weights so I had to do the calculations in my head. He said the dry weight, which was posted on the website, was "somewhere" either inside or "somewhere". What I questioned as well was 5200 lb. axles on trailers weighing in the almost 13k range. I understand "minus" the pin weight but absolutely don't agree with it. And yes, I am sure there are many, maybe hundreds of "regulations" that address that particular situation (no, I don't want to read them), but it is something to note when shopping a new RV.
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Old 04-11-2019, 06:20 AM   #4
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Danny, I had a very similar experience at my Dealer. They set me up with a weight distribution hitch that was close even for the dry weights and underweight for anything over. I have a 27SAB Cougar. Dry weights are 6,651 with a hitch weight of 975. They put an E2 system on. Thanks to the people here, I was able to go in with some education and literally teach them. I am now set up with an e4 fastway system that is rated to my trailer.
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:50 AM   #5
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I too recently visited aa new Rv dealer. They had a nice looking fifth wheel and of course it was a keystone; hey I like keystones. So I looked at the dry weight sticker and the GVW. Dry weight was at 8950 so I asked him what size axles where under it and he said he didn`t know but would find out. He called the next day and said he had asked the service dept and got two different answers so he call a Rep. The Rep told him they where 6k and I told him thanks and for his trouble I would come back and take a closer look. I crawled up under the trailer and they where 4.4 k. He looked stunned and said He wasn`t lying to me about what the rep told him. He called the next day to say a rep would call me directly and he started about the pin weight and rep had told him they had not had a single issue with the axles. I again told him Thanks but they would never convince me that to buy a 8950lbs trailer with a MSRP over 53,000 with 4.4k axles. It probably would not have cost much more for them to put heavier axles on the unit from the factory. Next time I look at one I guess that will be one of the first things I check. Oh I told the salesman the rep need not to call.
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:54 AM   #6
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There was a small dealer in Tucson that was a stickler on weight issues for his customers, He had a scale on a bracket on his forklift for tongue weight and would show the customer the weight and tell them about their door sticker on their TV. He had mostly smaller stuff and no 5th wheels.
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:54 AM   #7
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Yeah, after buying our trailer and getting a handle on the real weights and the concepts of GVWR vs payload under my belt, I was back at the dealership one day and the salesman saw me and asked me how the new trailer was. I said "great, though we're at the near maximum for the truck so glad we didn't buy the bigger one...". He said "that can't be, your F-150 can pull anything!". I said "pull no problem, carry anything - no".


I spent 15 minutes explaining the concept of GVWR, payload, and how much the hitch and tongue weight play into the calculation of payload. I think he sorta got it after I was done. Whether he uses that info with his customers - doubtful.


For entertainment, when I'm at our Ford dealership waiting for our vehicles being serviced, I'll peek at the cargo stickers on the doors of various F-150 trim levels just to see the differences compared to ours, and that of that of 250's and 350's. Usually a sales guy pops out of the woodwork and asks me if I need help, and I tell him what I'm doing. He asks me what I have for an F-150 and how big and heavy our travel trailer is, and he says "why, you should have no problems there! It can pull anything!". At that point I try to educate them. I usually get a deer in headlights look, or a "does not compute - error" look.


It's almost like they were brainwashed, and what I'm telling them is unbelievable... It's fun to watch... And sad...
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Old 04-11-2019, 08:05 AM   #8
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It seems a lot of people want the axles to be able to carry the entire trailer weight. I do not understand this. The axles can still be more than sufficiently sized while not rated to carry the entire trailer GVWR. There is no situation EVER where either the front feet/pin on a 5er or the tongue/jack stand on a TT will not be carrying a non-trivial portion of the trailers weight.

My trailer for example, has the following:

GVWR: 9660#
GAWR: 4400# x2
Hitch Weight: 860 (from Keystone literature)
Measured Hitch Weight: ~910#

The published hitch weight is a very simple calculation, GVWR-GCAWR=Hitch/Pin

That does not mean the actual hitch/pin weight will be that, but is how they come up with their numbers.

With my trailer loaded for a trip, at the scales, the axles were carrying 6540# but rated up to 8800# (and the tires well over 10k). Although the GAWR is below my trailer GVWR you can see why I am absolutely not concerned in this case.

As for what the sales people use when "selling" - their listings that they use only ever show the dry weights. This is a Keystone problem more than a CW or other dealer problem. They do not even publish GVWR on their own websites, just dry weight and max cargo capacity (payload essentially). There will never be a "cure" to this problem because they can simply say not everyone will load the same, it is the owners responsibility, etc. Educated buyers are the only real solution here and unfortunately many people are far too cavalier about hauling HUGE TRAILERS without learning how to do so safely. The only way to "fix" this widespread is through regulation and requiring special license and education to operate such a setup and we all know that will never happen in this country (others perhaps, but not the USA).
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Old 04-11-2019, 05:18 PM   #9
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Well, be careful what you ask for.
I came across an internet add for a new RV dealer next state over. I clicked on it to see what brands they were selling. They had a box on the top of their home page, a "What can I pull?" Tow Guide.
I entered my TV to see what their recommendations would be. I think they went a little large and were focused on towing capability numbers verses the other factors. But I was impressed with the concept. Good to see a little dialogue on the subject before the salesman leads you to the sales office.
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:03 PM   #10
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I just bought a 5000 pound tongue scale, just satisfy my curiosity. I will be getting the 2000 pound one for TTís next pay day.

So far I have weighed a triple axle fifth wheel after installing an Onan 5500W gen and a second gp 27 battery. Trailer is right at 43 ft. 3790 pin weight. GVWR is 20,000 pounds, so itís close to what is generally accepted.

Currently doing a 30 ft tandem axle fiver. Took the 27 battery out, full propane and all holding/fresh water tanks full. 1490 pounds. Will weigh on Saturday when I get done- 6 6V GC batteries and a 2000W Magnum inverter/charger. Removing pin box and adding goose box. Will post weight.
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:10 PM   #11
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What scales are you using?
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:28 PM   #12
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Sherline. Current is 0-5000 so not that accurate for most TTís. Iíve been doing the larger fivers and class Aís along with major add-ons.

We have had customers argue the tongue weight and the need/not for WD/sway. A scale would tell the true weight of that unit as it sat ready for delivery.
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
It seems a lot of people want the axles to be able to carry the entire trailer weight. I do not understand this. The axles can still be more than sufficiently sized while not rated to carry the entire trailer GVWR. There is no situation EVER where either the front feet/pin on a 5er or the tongue/jack stand on a TT will not be carrying a non-trivial portion of the trailers weight.

My trailer for example, has the following:

GVWR: 9660#
GAWR: 4400# x2
Hitch Weight: 860 (from Keystone literature)
Measured Hitch Weight: ~910#

The published hitch weight is a very simple calculation, GVWR-GCAWR=Hitch/Pin

That does not mean the actual hitch/pin weight will be that, but is how they come up with their numbers.

With my trailer loaded for a trip, at the scales, the axles were carrying 6540# but rated up to 8800# (and the tires well over 10k). Although the GAWR is below my trailer GVWR you can see why I am absolutely not concerned in this case.

As for what the sales people use when "selling" - their listings that they use only ever show the dry weights. This is a Keystone problem more than a CW or other dealer problem. They do not even publish GVWR on their own websites, just dry weight and max cargo capacity (payload essentially). There will never be a "cure" to this problem because they can simply say not everyone will load the same, it is the owners responsibility, etc. Educated buyers are the only real solution here and unfortunately many people are far too cavalier about hauling HUGE TRAILERS without learning how to do so safely. The only way to "fix" this widespread is through regulation and requiring special license and education to operate such a setup and we all know that will never happen in this country (others perhaps, but not the USA).
I have to disagree with that statement. I'm not a physics expert to any degree but I can assure you that if you drive on any terrible highways that put your pin/tongue "in the air", you just transferred the entire weight of the trailer onto your axles/tires - especially the rear ones, and probably more....there is no other possibility. In a perfect towing world, on perfect highways, with perfectly flat roads the weight distribution would be close to what you talk about....but then there is the "real world" and the "stuff" those trailers, and tires, are actually subjected to. Therein is another reason I figure there are so many unexplained tire "failures" along with feeling "absolutely not concerned". Just something to think about.
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Old 04-12-2019, 05:03 AM   #14
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Does anyone know how much "fat" (engineering margin) is built into any of the rated equipment that makes up a TT? What I guess I'm asking is the following: an axle is rated for 3500 pounds, but what is its true breaking (bending?) point? Ditto for tires - let say one is rated at 2040 pounds, but what was it really tested to? I'm not asking so I can overload stuff, but I am curious as to how much margin is built into the support structure. One would think (silly, I know) that an axle rated for 3500 pounds does have some "give" and can temporarily support a larger load of some realistic amount for a short time without breaking. I've often thought that a 7000 pound GVWR TT with two 3500 pound rated axles was not supplying sufficient support margin, even taking into account the weight handled by the hitch, but those that should "know" (the design engineers) obviously think it is sufficient, so there must be some "fat" in the design.
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Old 04-12-2019, 05:10 AM   #15
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Everything is designed with some safety margin built in. It is normally never published as that will invite people to push the margins, treat that as extra normal capacity, and break something.

This margin is there to handle things like shock from hitting a pothole or a bump in the road that bounces the trailer slightly.

To answer the example above, when the hitch is momentarily weightless, whatever popped up the back of the truck will almost immediately pop up the trailer axles as well thus "transferring" much more weight back onto the tongue. Is your tongue and hitch rated for many thousands of pounds? No, because they don't need to be, because a) when the tongue/hitch is "weightless" from a bounce the weight is balanced and not all shifting back on the axles and b) the same is true as the trailer comes back down, the weight does not all transfer to the tongue although momentarily that may be the only physical connection between the trailer and ground. Hence my statements above on axles ratings vs trailer weight.
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Old 04-12-2019, 05:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger View Post
Well, be careful what you ask for.
I came across an internet add for a new RV dealer next state over. I clicked on it to see what brands they were selling. They had a box on the top of their home page, a "What can I pull?" Tow Guide.
I entered my TV to see what their recommendations would be. I think they went a little large and were focused on towing capability numbers verses the other factors. But I was impressed with the concept. Good to see a little dialogue on the subject before the salesman leads you to the sales office.
RMc

The site: https://www.cenlarv.com/
Itís a start. Still, one would think they are just pulling numbers out of a manufacture tow guide. Which would be deceiving as my F250 in the guide says 3500 payload and my truck isnít even close to that real world. It would be a rough numbers, but could have a disclaimer to check door sticker. Iíve been lamenting about when building a truck online it would be nice to see how the options that you chose affect payload I would be awesome if you were to be able to see the door sticker on any completed truck. Would be really cool if when you see window sticker published on a dealer site if it would have actual payload for that truck. Would make shopping for a truck soooo much easier
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:32 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by chuckster57 View Post
Sherline. Current is 0-5000 so not that accurate for most TTís. Iíve been doing the larger fivers and class Aís along with major add-ons.

We have had customers argue the tongue weight and the need/not for WD/sway. A scale would tell the true weight of that unit as it sat ready for delivery.
I got the Sherline 0-2000 (since I only have a TT) and have been happy with it thus far.
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:41 AM   #18
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So I am curious why the payload number is different between the two stickers. Even if you add in the weight of the fresh water tanks that it says are included it does not match. With regard to GAWR I thought the two axles had to at least equal the GVWR of the trailer. So my axles equal the GVWR. With just my wife and I in the trailer we would never put 1900lbs in the trailer but I found it curious.Click image for larger version

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Old 04-13-2019, 04:07 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveW2993 View Post
... For entertainment, when I'm at our Ford dealership waiting for our vehicles being serviced, ... It's almost like they were brainwashed, and what I'm telling them is unbelievable... It's fun to watch... And sad...
I find it amazing that RV salespeople, in general, do not have a clue about GCWR (or lots of other things for that matter); they seem to base everything they say on RV dry weight and the TV's tow capacity. Just like there's certification for mechanics, insurance agents, etc, you would think RVIA or some similar trade organization would require documentation of a baseline knowledge for people selling or dealing with products that have their "stamp of approval" on them, whether they be an RV or TV salesperson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Everything is designed with some safety margin built in. ...
That is what I would have assumed. Perhaps it would put peoples' minds at rest knowing there is some "fat" in there (I'm addressing the axles now) and that while they may just seem to be undersized (and in some instances, as stated above, they really seem to be) there is (in some engineer's mind) sufficient margin for normal use.
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Old 04-13-2019, 07:07 AM   #20
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Now that I am retired, it might be fun to get a job as an RV sales person, and see how successful one could be being truthful with people.
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