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Old 03-31-2019, 04:12 PM   #21
JRTJH
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Originally Posted by mtofell View Post
I think you may have just bolstered my case. Even the scumbag ambulance chasing attorney doesn't list ANYTHING about pursuing overweight situations. Go take another look at his bullet points.

I'm not saying they wouldn't try in the right situation but that guy doesn't even have it on his "wish list".
Not sure what you read or how you missed it but this is directly from the link:

"Because of their weight and length, recreational vehicles are subject to special regulations. For instance, Arizona law requires an auxiliary braking system when towing 3,000 pounds or more, such as a camper trailer or car. RV manufacturers also specify maximum weight and towing loads.

We can bring in professionals to examine the wreckage for evidence that the motor home was dangerously overweight or unbalanced, that the tires or brakes were worn, that the hitch was not rated for the load, or that the RV lacked the proper lights, reflectors or mirrors."

I won't engage with you again on this post. My objective is not to "convince you" of anything. Rather, to identify that there are lawyers who actively engage in litigation against RV'ers who are involved in accidents and, if they find something out of the norm, they WILL "take a bite of your flesh".

Do as you choose, it's no skin off my back, but don't hypothesize that "nobody's ever going to look at the outcome of an unintended accident." That simply is "head in the sand" mentality. These advertisements are easily found in every state.
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Old 03-31-2019, 04:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Not sure what you read or how you missed it but this is directly from the link:

"Because of their weight and length, recreational vehicles are subject to special regulations. For instance, Arizona law requires an auxiliary braking system when towing 3,000 pounds or more, such as a camper trailer or car. RV manufacturers also specify maximum weight and towing loads.

We can bring in professionals to examine the wreckage for evidence that the motor home was dangerously overweight or unbalanced, that the tires or brakes were worn, that the hitch was not rated for the load, or that the RV lacked the proper lights, reflectors or mirrors."

I won't engage with you again on this post. My objective is not to "convince you" of anything. Rather, to identify that there are lawyers who actively engage in litigation against RV'ers who are involved in accidents and, if they find something out of the norm, they WILL "take a bite of your flesh".

Do as you choose, it's no skin off my back, but don't hypothesize that "nobody's ever going to look at the outcome of an unintended accident." That simply is "head in the sand" mentality. These advertisements are easily found in every state.

Okay, sorry... I did miss the overweight info below the bullet points. I guess I figured it would be in the bullets if it was important.

That being said, the whole debate comes down to what is "overweight?" Are we talking GVWR or Axle weights? Undoubtedly, the attorney for the guy who was injured would be arguing for GVWR and the attorney for the RVer would be arguing axle weights.

It's been pointed out here many times that GVWR is a clerical thing in many states and more of a registration numbers. Truckers, bridges and anything else that really matters is based on axle weights so I kind of get that argument.

All this being said, I tow at or under my GVWR most times but can be a couple hundred pounds over occasionally. All the while being WELL under my axle weights and tire ratings.

I'm really not trying to "bury my head in the sand" but more just get annoyed when the conversation turns to one of fear and doom at the mere thought of a person exceeding a clerical rating.
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Old 03-31-2019, 05:55 PM   #23
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If the crash was investigated by accident reconstruction trained police, the lawyers only buy the reports and have their retired accident reconstruction police read them and come to the same conclusion most of the time. Retired fire and crash expert cops are highly paid by many insurance companies. The few I know make more money just reading the reports than the years they investigated and wrote the reports when they were cops.
What happens to anyone who is found careless or negligent in a police crash report is nothing compared to the civil lawsuits. You may wish you were in jail than go thru a whole civil trial. In jail you get a roof over your head, a bed, food and free health care. Maybe even a job making license plates.
What happens to you when someone wants everything you earned and owned? Reality is they likely will not get it all, but you life will not be the same.
Mtofell I get what your saying, but poor decisions can lead to some strong life changing events. I have seen it, many co workers have seen it.
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Old 03-31-2019, 06:08 PM   #24
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Another problem with being sued civilly, the shady ambulance chasers count on it being too expensive for you to hire expensive lawyers to defend yourself. They can file suit in such a way that you have to hire a lawyer to answer the complaint. It basically forces you to settle or you risk losing your house etc. I would never want to put myself in a situation where a lawyer could use the manufacture numbers to show I was overweight in any way.
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Old 03-31-2019, 06:29 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by mtofell View Post
I think you may have just bolstered my case. Even the scumbag ambulance chasing attorney doesn't list ANYTHING about pursuing overweight situations. Go take another look at his bullet points.

I'm not saying they wouldn't try in the right situation but that guy doesn't even have it on his "wish list".
Might do a bit more reading, they specifically refer to weight and towing capacities in the opening page.
Now I was a bit of a bad boy on this form with the 2001 2500 we towed our 12,500# 32í 5e with 8,800# GVWR, truck weighed 7,800# ready to tow, 2,700# pin! You do the math! We were 1,700# over GVWR, while still within the 6,084# rear axle rating, based on base tires, we had the optional tires with 3,415# capacity. Towed well BUT hungry lawyers, more and more.
Now 2016 Ram 3500 Laramie DRW, Aisin, and 3.73ís, as X Rated and Javi state excessive payload is a great thing.
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Old 03-31-2019, 06:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Logan X View Post
... I would never want to put myself in a situation where a lawyer could use the manufacture numbers to show I was overweight in any way.
Especially when there's warnings in every owners manual that say things like:
"Exceeding the Safety Compliance Certification Label vehicle weight rating limits could result in substandard vehicle handling or performance, engine, transmission and/or structural damage, serious damage to the vehicle, loss of
control and personal injury."


and:
"Do not exceed the GVWR or the GAWR specified on the Safety Compliance Certification Label. Exceeding any vehicle weight rating limitation could result in serious damage to the vehicle and/or personal injury."
It would be very difficult for "your lawyer" to argue against warnings in the truck owner's manual with those statements.....

The world has changed from when I was a kid and could walk out back and shoot coke bottles off the fence posts or ride my MoPed to town and NEVER meet or pass another vehicle. As crowded as the roads are these days, for many of us, it's not whether we are safe or not, but whether the "other guy" runs into us and then sues us for being in his way.... If ANYTHING is not "up to par" with our rig, we've "set up the perfect claim", not for us, but for someone to take everything the court will award them.....

Believing that "people are honorable and understanding" these days, will get you in a world of hurt. It ain't like "the good old days".....
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Old 03-31-2019, 06:43 PM   #27
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Okay, sorry... I did miss the overweight info below the bullet points. I guess I figured it would be in the bullets if it was important.

That being said, the whole debate comes down to what is "overweight?" Are we talking GVWR or Axle weights? Undoubtedly, the attorney for the guy who was injured would be arguing for GVWR and the attorney for the RVer would be arguing axle weights.

It's been pointed out here many times that GVWR is a clerical thing in many states and more of a registration numbers. Truckers, bridges and anything else that really matters is based on axle weights so I kind of get that argument.

All this being said, I tow at or under my GVWR most times but can be a couple hundred pounds over occasionally. All the while being WELL under my axle weights and tire ratings.

I'm really not trying to "bury my head in the sand" but more just get annoyed when the conversation turns to one of fear and doom at the mere thought of a person exceeding a clerical rating.
There are a couple of us here who are exceptionally familiar with the ins-and-outs of investigating collisions, including what to look for, the questions to ask, to reach a conclusion.

Years ago, I helped investigate a fatal collision. The at-fault driver was driving a company truck (if I recall, a dually with service body, so larger vehicle) towing a 12000 flatbed trailer, with several lengths of well pipe, dozed off momentarily, crossed over and hit a small import car head-on, killing the other driver. The load was well under the capacity of the trailer and truck, but... guess what, the driver was NOT licensed to be towing that size of trailer, even had it been empty. So basically, it was a technicality in that he should have had a class A license, but only had a class C (California). His class of license had NOTHING To do with the collision/PCF, but... if the case were to ever go to a civil suit, guess what would likely be front and center against the driver AND his employer, yup, his classification of license.

I know this kind of digressed, but it is a good example of how even a technical violation can create issues for those who willingly/knowingly (or in some cases unknowingly) throw caution to the wind.

The OP posted a legitimate question and one that is rarely seen. Usually those questions are posted long after the owner is in a pickle. Cudo's to the OP for seeking to RIGH way to set about his goal, and get some good information to make an informed decision.

Of course there's always that "one guy" who says... bahhh who cares, you'll be fine... I do it all the time... I've never had any issues or problems. Nothing ever happens until it happens. Kind of like the guy in the example I gave above, who knows how long he had been driving around, in his employers truck, technically in violation of what he could "legally" drive/tow.

In California, just like in most states, there are different classifications of driver licenses, related to size of vehicle driven and/or what you tow. You'd be surprised (or not) at the volume of California residents who are driving their 3/4 ton, lifted 4x4 trucks, towing a large two or three axle toy hauler (most of those are well over 10,000 GVWR and some are 15-16-17,000 GVWR) and all they have is their regular class C. The larger 5th wheels and TT's may require at minimum an endorsement or even a non commercial class A, and they are grossly overweight for the truck towing them.

Moral of the story, don't be "that guy" and think I'm fine, going over my GVWR, but under my tire or GAWR, only to someday (hopefully not) have something happen, have a savvy collision investigator investigate your incident and you find yourself at the other end of a technical violation or civil suit. Because, a good, seasoned civil attorney will absolutely convince 12 people (your peers) that the one pound you were over your "arbitrary" GVWR, was a significant factor in the collision.

Flame away.
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Old 03-31-2019, 06:55 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Bolo4u View Post
There are a couple of us here who are exceptionally familiar with the ins-and-outs of investigating collisions, including what to look for, the questions to ask, to reach a conclusion.

Years ago, I helped investigate a fatal collision. The at-fault driver was driving a company truck (if I recall, a dually with service body, so larger vehicle) towing a 12000 flatbed trailer, with several lengths of well pipe, dozed off momentarily, crossed over and hit a small import car head-on, killing the other driver. The load was well under the capacity of the trailer and truck, but... guess what, the driver was NOT licensed to be towing that size of trailer, even had it been empty. So basically, it was a technicality in that he should have had a class A license, but only had a class C (California). His class of license had NOTHING To do with the collision/PCF, but... if the case were to ever go to a civil suit, guess what would likely be front and center against the driver AND his employer, yup, his classification of license.

I know this kind of digressed, but it is a good example of how even a technical violation can create issues for those who willingly/knowingly (or in some cases unknowingly) throw caution to the wind.

The OP posted a legitimate question and one that is rarely seen. Usually those questions are posted long after the owner is in a pickle. Cudo's to the OP for seeking to RIGH way to set about his goal, and get some good information to make an informed decision.

Of course there's always that "one guy" who says... bahhh who cares, you'll be fine... I do it all the time... I've never had any issues or problems. Nothing ever happens until it happens. Kind of like the guy in the example I gave above, who knows how long he had been driving around, in his employers truck, technically in violation of what he could "legally" drive/tow.

In California, just like in most states, there are different classifications of driver licenses, related to size of vehicle driven and/or what you tow. You'd be surprised (or not) at the volume of California residents who are driving their 3/4 ton, lifted 4x4 trucks, towing a large two or three axle toy hauler (most of those are well over 10,000 GVWR and some are 15-16-17,000 GVWR) and all they have is their regular class C. The larger 5th wheels and TT's may require at minimum an endorsement or even a non commercial class A, and they are grossly overweight for the truck towing them.

Moral of the story, don't be "that guy" and think I'm fine, going over my GVWR, but under my tire or GAWR, only to someday (hopefully not) have something happen, have a savvy collision investigator investigate your incident and you find yourself at the other end of a technical violation or civil suit. Because, a good, seasoned civil attorney will absolutely convince 12 people (your peers) that the one pound you were over your "arbitrary" GVWR, was a significant factor in the collision.

Flame away.
I get all this and don't disagree but would point out that just because you are towing at a GVWR of 9,990# doesn't mean you are immune from any legal action. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a case where the ambulance chasing attorney gave up just because the alleged negligent driver was under GVWR. If you are in a crash and at fault in any way these days you are going to get a crap storm of lawsuits no matter what you were driving. This is good support for having A LOT of insurance.

And before anyone plays the armchair insurance company card, yes, you will be covered, even if you are overweight. In general, insurance companies must prove that you were trying to defraud them before they can deny coverage. Of course, this is a topic for a whole other thread.

The reality in all of this is that there are no absolutes. It just all gets sorted out in the courts (with attorneys being the only guaranteed winners the entire way).
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Old 03-31-2019, 07:03 PM   #29
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FWIW, the ambulance chasers usually do not make anything unless the case goes to a final verdict or settles. That is why they will make it so painful and push you to settle so aggressively.

Thanks for the advice and confirmation of what I was already thinking everyone! TTs in my future until the truck gets an upgrade (and possibly still TTs after that as well )
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Old 03-31-2019, 07:19 PM   #30
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[QUOTE=mtofell;333514]I get all this and don't disagree but would point out that just because you are towing at a GVWR of 9,990# doesn't mean you are immune from any legal action. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a case where the ambulance chasing attorney gave up just because the alleged negligent driver was under GVWR. If you are in a crash and at fault in any way these days you are going to get a crap storm of lawsuits no matter what you were driving. This is good support for having A LOT of insurance.

And before anyone plays the armchair insurance company card, yes, you will be covered, even if you are overweight. In general, insurance companies must prove that you were trying to defraud them before they can deny coverage. Of course, this is a topic for a whole other thread.

The reality in all of this is that there are no absolutes. It just all gets sorted out in the courts (with attorneys being the only guaranteed winners the entire way).[

My takeaway from your comments is that "to heck with weights, laws etc.". The bigger statement is " if you are in a crash and found AT FAULT in any way you are going to get a crap storm or lawsuits" undermining everything you say. Follow the laws and weight limitations you aren't "at fault" for those liabilities which you seem to support ignoring.? Long story short, IMO, you are encouraging irresponsible behavior based on nothing more than your opinion that you won't get caught, if you do it doesn't matter, your illegal activities don't warrant scrutiny because you don't think they're important....and, the regulations/laws don't really mean anything to you. I'm not thinking a lot of judges or juries are going to think your interpretations are "cool"...but, give it a whirl and see where you land....just don't land in W TX.
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Old 03-31-2019, 07:45 PM   #31
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I get all this and don't disagree but would point out that just because you are towing at a GVWR of 9,990# doesn't mean you are immune from any legal action. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a case where the ambulance chasing attorney gave up just because the alleged negligent driver was under GVWR. If you are in a crash and at fault in any way these days you are going to get a crap storm of lawsuits no matter what you were driving. This is good support for having A LOT of insurance.

And before anyone plays the armchair insurance company card, yes, you will be covered, even if you are overweight. In general, insurance companies must prove that you were trying to defraud them before they can deny coverage. Of course, this is a topic for a whole other thread.

The reality in all of this is that there are no absolutes. It just all gets sorted out in the courts (with attorneys being the only guaranteed winners the entire way).
Well yes, IF AT Fault, but you are not immune to a Civil law suit, just because you were NOT AT FAULT. This is when being over weight or not is likely a decision maker for a lawyer.
These lawyers are in it for the easy money, if not at fault, and within numbers, it will be a tough case to win.
If his closing argument is " My client deserves to win this case because he pulled out in front of the RV that was within all weight ratings and had good working brakes"

Many of these lawyers work on no win no pay, meaning the plaintiff isn't out any money if they lose the case. The lawyers are going to go for the easy win.
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Old 03-31-2019, 08:26 PM   #32
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[QUOTE=sourdough;333517]
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I get all this and don't disagree but would point out that just because you are towing at a GVWR of 9,990# doesn't mean you are immune from any legal action. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a case where the ambulance chasing attorney gave up just because the alleged negligent driver was under GVWR. If you are in a crash and at fault in any way these days you are going to get a crap storm of lawsuits no matter what you were driving. This is good support for having A LOT of insurance.

And before anyone plays the armchair insurance company card, yes, you will be covered, even if you are overweight. In general, insurance companies must prove that you were trying to defraud them before they can deny coverage. Of course, this is a topic for a whole other thread.

The reality in all of this is that there are no absolutes. It just all gets sorted out in the courts (with attorneys being the only guaranteed winners the entire way).[

My takeaway from your comments is that "to heck with weights, laws etc.". The bigger statement is " if you are in a crash and found AT FAULT in any way you are going to get a crap storm or lawsuits" undermining everything you say. Follow the laws and weight limitations you aren't "at fault" for those liabilities which you seem to support ignoring.? Long story short, IMO, you are encouraging irresponsible behavior based on nothing more than your opinion that you won't get caught, if you do it doesn't matter, your illegal activities don't warrant scrutiny because you don't think they're important....and, the regulations/laws don't really mean anything to you. I'm not thinking a lot of judges or juries are going to think your interpretations are "cool"...but, give it a whirl and see where you land....just don't land in W TX.
Not sure if you just are reading me wrong or just REALLY like to fight. Your assumptions are not at all what I am saying. Maybe sleep on it and reread in the AM and it will be more clear.
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Old 03-31-2019, 09:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by mtofell View Post
I get all this and don't disagree but would point out that just because you are towing at a GVWR of 9,990# doesn't mean you are immune from any legal action. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a case where the ambulance chasing attorney gave up just because the alleged negligent driver was under GVWR. If you are in a crash and at fault in any way these days you are going to get a crap storm of lawsuits no matter what you were driving. This is good support for having A LOT of insurance.

And before anyone plays the armchair insurance company card, yes, you will be covered, even if you are overweight. In general, insurance companies must prove that you were trying to defraud them before they can deny coverage. Of course, this is a topic for a whole other thread.

The reality in all of this is that there are no absolutes. It just all gets sorted out in the courts (with attorneys being the only guaranteed winners the entire way).
My takeaway from your comments is that "to heck with weights, laws etc.". The bigger statement is " if you are in a crash and found AT FAULT in any way you are going to get a crap storm or lawsuits" undermining everything you say. Follow the laws and weight limitations you aren't "at fault" for those liabilities which you seem to support ignoring.? Long story short, IMO, you are encouraging irresponsible behavior based on nothing more than your opinion that you won't get caught, if you do it doesn't matter, your illegal activities don't warrant scrutiny because you don't think they're important....and, the regulations/laws don't really mean anything to you. I'm not thinking a lot of judges or juries are going to think your interpretations are "cool"...but, give it a whirl and see where you land....just don't land in W TX.
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Not sure if you just are reading me wrong or just REALLY like to fight. Your assumptions are not at all what I am saying. Maybe sleep on it and reread in the AM and it will be more clear.
Well my take on this exchange is weight has nothing to do with being sued. You will get sued only if at fault, and you are already in trouble.

In truth you can be sued when not listed as at fault. This is where the extenuating conditions of being over weight come into play.

As I stated most personal injury lawyers, are in it for easy money. So if one is not listed as at fault, and is within all weight ratings, not likely to win easily.

Now if the not at fault driver was towing well beyond the weight ratings of the TV and was in an accident, this is where that same lawyer could see some easy money. Most of these lawyers will take on these cases on the terms of no win the Plaintiff doesn't have to pay anything.

Personally I was on the wrong side of this argument for too long, now I am on the right side of it, and very happy that I did.
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Old 04-02-2019, 04:52 PM   #34
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[QUOTE=mtofell;333529]
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Not sure if you just are reading me wrong or just REALLY like to fight. Your assumptions are not at all what I am saying. Maybe sleep on it and reread in the AM and it will be more clear.

Sorry, been on the road without internet access. Just want to say I didn't read you wrong. You might want to read your entire series of posts and try to read them from a new RV owner's perspective. Not trying to fight, just posting what I feel is the truth. Read it the first time and didn't need to sleep on it. Upon rereading...the comments all seem to say the same things they did.

"I'm really not trying to "bury my head in the sand" but more just get annoyed when the conversation turns to one of fear and doom at the mere thought of a person exceeding a clerical rating."

This is just one of the many statements you made - you get annoyed because anyone would worry about gvw...which to you is a "clerical rating" and unimportant/wrong....that is your opinion and in mine it is wrong. It implies to an uninformed person that hey, this can be disregarded. That is the way you approach the weights, not the way a new person should be led or advised IMO. You made other statements that were similar, again, IMO.

I won't respond to your posts again in this thread.
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Old 04-07-2019, 07:57 AM   #35
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Payload

Where are you getting your payload numbers? I did a basic google search and it shows the HD GMC having payload range of 2,968# to 3,559# for 3/4 ton. The payload is actually much higher than an actual ton and a half. Could make you feel better looking into it.
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Old 04-07-2019, 08:04 AM   #36
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Reading this reminded me of my own experience with an F250 with only a 2200lb payload. I had a 2015 cougar with a 1600 pin weight before additional battery. Went to Cat scale with spouse and found that we were left with about 500 lb capacity. Key was trying to balance our load out. There are a few options and ideas. We bought a tire carrier and installed on trailer behind axel and put our truck tire on it. We looked at an aluminum 5th wheel gate and would save about 75 lbs in payload. Only bring what you need for camping. Smaller lighter Reese hitch helps at 125 lbs. space in the rear of the trailer was used to balance load but always made sure we kept adequate weight on the pin. Used Cat scales to verify our strategy before trip and never had a problem. Over time we all end up adding things and ultimately end up over loaded or close to overload. We towed safely for 2 years but upgraded to F350 and heavier unit. You can also add some water to your tank and this will counter the pin weight but as long as you donít exceed combined vehicle tow rating. There are 5 th wheels out there you can easily tow so good luck.
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Old 04-07-2019, 08:23 AM   #37
Logan X
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Originally Posted by jhop_8 View Post
Where are you getting your payload numbers? I did a basic google search and it shows the HD GMC having payload range of 2,968# to 3,559# for 3/4 ton. The payload is actually much higher than an actual ton and a half. Could make you feel better looking into it.
The payload number is specific to each vehicle. It is located on a sticker inside the drivers door. You canít trust generic numbers on the internet because they reflect the marketing strategy of the manufacturer. The numbers on line usually represent a stripped down single cab gas engine truck with the max tow and payload package possible.
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Old 04-07-2019, 10:31 AM   #38
Atlsouth56
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B&W hitches has a good tow calcalator on their web site you may want to check out.
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Old 04-07-2019, 12:47 PM   #39
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I have been in your shoes on the upgrade of camper thing. Currently we are in a jayco 324bhts TT. Keep in mind if you start going to big TTs that are 30 plus feet. These added options are a plus. 50 amp service so you can add a second ac if needed. We did and it is great. 15k main ac unit is a plus. Upgrade to 16" tires if you can. Most manufacturers put on least amount of tires they can. If you're getting close to 10k weight on a camper they are great. If we keep ours for a long time it's my next upgrade.
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Old 04-08-2019, 05:16 AM   #40
cookinwitdiesel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhop_8 View Post
Where are you getting your payload numbers? I did a basic google search and it shows the HD GMC having payload range of 2,968# to 3,559# for 3/4 ton. The payload is actually much higher than an actual ton and a half. Could make you feel better looking into it.
I got it from the sticker on my door jam

The GMC online number must be for an SLE crew cab standard bed 4wd diesel because it was 320 higher than my specific truck which is a bone stock Denali - I believe online said 2530# which I believed and didn't know at the time to check the actual door stickers. Yes you can get a super stripped down gas model and get over 3k payload, no thanks.
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