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Old 12-16-2018, 07:30 AM   #1
Harks_723
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Tire design issue or something else?

Morning everyone. First post here, I'll do an intro separately but I wanted to come on and get opinions on my Keystone Outback.

Long story short I have a 2017 Outback 324CG, single owner, purchased new in May of 2017.

Trailer weighed in full trim at 10,060lbs.

As I was leaving a friends after visiting for Thanksgiving we noticed what seemed to be 'bubbles' in the driver side rear tire. The unit is a dual axle.

Upon inspection, the inner tread (measured as to the centerline of the trailer front to back) is HEAVILY worn. The sidewall on half of this Trailer King tire is starting to bubble, indicating was I imagine is the tire ready to come apart. Luckily it was caught, I replaced with the spare and we made it back to our current home base in Albuquerque without issue.

The passenger side rear tire is also showing signs of tread wear in the same pattern.

Front tires look completely fine.

Doing a complete review I'm left scratching my head a bit on a few issues from a design standpoint.

The trailer king tires (factory issued) are marked as a MAX rating of 2,540lbs each. Combined that's 10,160lbs. However, Keystone has this trailer as a max GVWR of 10,500lbs. We remain under that weight (religious about not overloading).

Am I missing something?? I know there is safety factor in equipment, but how can the factory provide tires that are almost 500lbs underweight for the max recommendation for the trailer??

I brought the issue up to Keystone and they are recommending that I take the trailer in to have a rear axle inspection done to rule out it being bent. This is scheduled for Jan 2. Part of me thinks I'm being sent on a wild goose chase as the axle doesn't seem to be bent, the tires are not out of camber, and the wheels spin freely when off the ground.

I also asked Keystone for a formal statement on the tire selection logic regarding the max weights. This was two weeks ago. They are still remaining in contact but nothing has surfaced as requested.

I know the factory is going to put the bare minimum on as a way to cut costs. These tires have lasted us over a year with probably 14-17k miles, but it still seems like premature wear. If it's a case of the tires being overloaded, it doesn't surprise me, but per the book the trailer is not over weight. If anything, the tires are UNDER weight.

Thoughts/comments? Any help is appreciated. Tire pictures attached.
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:52 AM   #2
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First and foremost, you are badly "under-tire'd." Yep, I just made that up. Very, very few experienced RV'ers across the board will give your China-bombs a thumbs up. You are well into borrowed time with these rags when you drive off the lot. I agree that the axle should be inspected. And then you should immediately re-tire! Maybe Maxxis, Carlisle, or Goodyear.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:25 AM   #3
JRTJH
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^^^ X2 what Jim said. Your tires "meet or exceed" (barely) minimum requirements to support the trailer weight by using "industry magic"...

What I mean by that is the manufacturers (all of them, not just Keystone) deduct the tongue/pin weight that is carried by the tow vehicle from the trailer weight and "magically endorse" that the axles are only carrying what's left....

So, with your trailer GVW of 10,500 pounds, assuming 1000 pounds is tongue weight, that leaves 9,500 pounds on the axles. Divided by 4 tires, that's "ONLY" (yeah right) 2375 pounds per tire, so your LRD tires " easily have 165 pounds of "excess capacity" as a "safety reserve".... Again, yeah right.....

As Jim said, you're "grossly under-tired"....

Your best bet: Have the axles checked, if they are good (probably are unless you've had an accident or hit a significant pot hole) and then get new tires that are "upgraded beyond the load range D (8 ply) tires" that are currently on your trailer.

I'd recommend 225 75R15 LRE tires. Brand is up to you, but the three "currently favorable tires" in the order most chosen by most members are:

1. Maxxis M8008
2. Carlisle Radial Trail HD
3. Goodyear Endurance.

The Goodyear Endurance has a good track record so far, but has only been on the market about 18-24 months, so there is no "long term real use data" other than manufacturer testing. So far, it looks good but nobody can tell you what the performance will be in the 3-4-5 year use cycle.

By choosing the 225 75R15 LRE tires, each tire will have a capacity of 2830, an increase of 290 pounds per tire position for a total increased capacity of 1160 pounds. Without changing to 16" wheels, the LRE tire option is about your best bet.

Rest assured, you're not alone in your tire issue. RVIA changed tire safety reserve capacity in the new RVIA standards and has partly (not completely) improved tire capacity. While that does nothing for trailers built before the standard changed, at least it's a step in the industry fixing a long time problem.

Here's what the inside of my TK tires looked like at 24 months of use. A time bomb waiting to happen and no way to see the tread separation without dismounting the tire to see inside. At least, in your situation, you were able to see the problem and resolve it before a disaster. Some weren't (or won't be) so lucky....
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:27 AM   #4
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Iíd have to UP the load range from that current D tire to an E in same size. Maxiis 8008 or perhaps the new GY Endurance.

Bottom line is you are on borrowed time with hose remaining tires and an increase to load range E in any tire except Trailer King or Towmax would be
Money wisely spent now...

Wait and it will cost you more when next blow out comes with those other D rated tires.
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Old 12-16-2018, 02:16 PM   #5
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According to the specs for your trailer it was fitted with those LRD tires before the new 10% load capacity reserves were applied by Keystone. A LRE in the same tire size designation will get you above the 10% reserve recommendations.

Tire sizes/load capacities for RV trailers are determined by the trailer’s vehicle certified GAWRs. Check your certification label. Your vehicle certified GAWRs are somewhere between 4800# & 5000#. Remember, it’s not what the label on the axle says; it’s the official GAWR on the vehicle certification label.

The short way to figure out what your GAWRs are is to deduct the published tongue weight 985# - from the GVWR - 10,500# = 9,515# and divide by 2 = 4,757#, that's the minimum legal load capacity to be set for your axles. Divide that by two and add 10% and you will have the minimum load capacity for tires, using the RVIA recommendations.

Almost all of the ST tire manufacturers have added the LRE to their ST225/75R15 designated size line-up. One has added a LRF, requiring 95 PSI and new wheels. But, it’s steel cased and probably more durable.

From looking at your pictures I'd venture to guess they were under inflated or grossly overloaded. Without knowing their history you have to change all of them or risk trailer damages only your insurance will cover.
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Old 12-16-2018, 02:31 PM   #6
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Did it again, double post.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:20 PM   #7
Harks_723
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Thanks for the help guys. I've already looked into the Maxxis tires you've mentioned. Discount tire has them for not too bad of a price, I think just over $100 and change mounted and balanced.


Keystone had mentioned a warranty or reimbursement from Trailer King on the "faulty" tires... Anyone actually ever get paid by them?

Considering the miles I've put on this rig I suppose I've gotten much more than others have. Glass half full viewpoint.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post

From looking at your pictures I'd venture to guess they were under inflated or grossly overloaded. Without knowing their history you have to change all of them or risk trailer damages only your insurance will cover.
Thanks for the reply. I can assure you that before every transit pressures (and lugs) are checked. As far as "gross overload" on weight, I offer that there could be some deviation from my weighed 10,060lbs but nothing beyond 500lbs... Which still puts me where the max specs are.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harks_723 View Post
...
Thanks for the reply. I can assure you that before every transit pressures (and lugs) are checked. As far as "gross overload" on weight, I offer that there could be some deviation from my weighed 10,060lbs but nothing beyond 500lbs... Which still puts me where the max specs are.
Keep in mind that ST tires "degrade with age" at about 10% per year. At least that's the generality of how to determine degradation. So, hypothetically, if your trailer is a 2017, it could have been built as early as March 2016 and the tires could have been manufactured in late 2015, so that would make them 3 years old in December 2018. Ten percent per year comes out to 30% about now..... Hard and fast rules ?? Nope, but a general guide to remember when it comes to figuring how much is "left in your tires". Most RV'ers say that they replace the tires at 4-5 years and they always replace tires that still look like new....

Conceivably, your current tires could have a max weight capacity of 2540-30% (762 lbs) or to say it another way, they could have degraded to a maximum capacity of around 1778 pounds..... Yet another reason to not tow next season on your current tires.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:58 PM   #9
Harks_723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Keep in mind that ST tires "degrade with age" at about 10% per year. At least that's the generality of how to determine degradation. So, hypothetically, if your trailer is a 2017, it could have been built as early as March 2016 and the tires could have been manufactured in late 2015, so that would make them 3 years old in December 2018. Ten percent per year comes out to 30% about now..... Hard and fast rules ?? Nope, but a general guide to remember when it comes to figuring how much is "left in your tires". Most RV'ers say that they replace the tires at 4-5 years and they always replace tires that still look like new....

Conceivably, your current tires could have a max weight capacity of 2540-30% (762 lbs) or to say it another way, they could have degraded to a maximum capacity of around 1778 pounds..... Yet another reason to not tow next season on your current tires.
Great info here. I'm glad I posted the question.

Luckily I'm full timing. Even more lucky, we're work camping until March, so I've got plenty of time to change them. I'll keep the thread updated with Keystones involvement on the issue.
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Old 12-17-2018, 04:20 AM   #10
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In my opinion ST duty tires are a joke for what they have to do..The very first sign of a problem or as soon as I possibly can this spring I’m switching my tires out to LT rated tires..
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Old 12-17-2018, 05:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
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In my opinion ST duty tires are a joke for what they have to do..The very first sign of a problem or as soon as I possibly can this spring Iím switching my tires out to LT rated tires..
Given that trailer manufactures build to ST tires inflated weight ratings, one has to be careful in choosing a LT to replace a ST tire. With 15" rims that offen means switching to 16" rims.
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Old 12-17-2018, 08:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rber1234 View Post
In my opinion ST duty tires are a joke for what they have to do..The very first sign of a problem or as soon as I possibly can this spring Iím switching my tires out to LT rated tires..
Good luck finding LT tires in the 15" wheel size. (don't even consider P rated tires). Actually, the tires on your trailer are 205 75R15 LRD rated at 2150 per tire. You could easily install 225 75R15 LRE tires from a "quality manufacturer" and obtain an additional 2720 pounds of tire capacity. That's significantly more "weight capacity" than you'll find with any 15" LT tire.

Nearly 3000 pounds of increased capacity on a trailer weighing 4900 pound..... You do the math and cost analysis.....
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Old 12-17-2018, 09:43 AM   #13
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Discount Tire normally has the Carlisle Radial Trail HT in stock and on hand; that is why I almost always use them. If you decide to go with the Maaxis ST tires, call ahead and make sure they get them in the store. Either brand is certainly a slightly better choice than the OEM tires.
As far as the tire wear, even the china-bombs that were installed should not have worn as they did. I do suspect a bent axle. Keep in mind that axles should have a slight bow facing upwards and not be straight as they are fitted on the trailer. I think your dealer is right to have to make that appointment to check that axle as the tire wear is NOT due to the crappy nature of the OEM tires. (my amateur opinion which doesn't count much on RV tech issues).
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Old 12-17-2018, 10:29 AM   #14
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My Discount store had many sets of GY Enderance ST225/75R15E's in stock.
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Old 12-23-2018, 08:57 AM   #15
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Years of Tire Trouble

First thing is have your axles aligned. You probably need to do both because specialists are reluctant to just do one. Immediately replace all your tires with E rated.

I have an 06 Raptor, and have had no end of tire trouble. I have had the axles aligned three times, I have replaced a broken axle and I replace tires regularly. After talking to many tri-axle trailer owners, I would never purchase another tri-axle, and not sure I would buy a Keystone product given all I have seen and heard. I helped the tire issue by replacing all with E rating tires but still replace 2 or more per year. I carry two spares. I have found no brand better than others. I have used Good Year, Carlisle which are crap, and several others. The best I have found so far are the Tire King house brand E rated.
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Old 12-23-2018, 09:12 AM   #16
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Rber1234
Some TT tires sizes are not available as LT. Our Passport Ultralite comes with 205 75 14 LR C tires. Only option is LR D as upgrade. None of the nationwide sources list LT rated tires
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Old 12-23-2018, 09:21 AM   #17
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I just bought a 2019 Outback 301 ubh.
My dealer and the info on the trailer recommends a tire pressure of 65 psi. I have always ran my trailer tires at max inflation 80 psi and when I checked the tires before leaving with the new trailer they were at 80. Which is were they have stayed for the first trip of 1500 miles.
My gross weight is 9500 lbs.
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Old 12-23-2018, 09:46 AM   #18
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Real tire load?

A few things to consider. Starting with GVWR can be misleading as it assumes a tongue/pin weight.
Following points have been covered in detail in my RVTire blog but a quick summary:


- You do not need to calculate GAWR as that number is on the front driver side of the RV as part of the vehicle certification label.

- Just knowing the max allowable load on an axle doesn't tell you the actual load on the tires. You need to get individual tire loading as very few RV have weight balanced 50/50 side to side when fully loaded. Some are off by 500# or more and a tire on one end of an axle doesn't help out the overloaded tire on the opposite end of the axle.

- Fully loaded (water, clothes, tools, propane, fuel in motorhomes and all the other stuff you take along) is the only meaningful time to learn the actual weights.


- Read your owner's manual section on tires. There is important safety info in there that you should follow if you want to lower the chance of tire problems.

- How old are your tires? One picture seems to show some age cracking. Read the tire DOT serial, write it down and know how to calculate the tire age. I believe this is covered in your owner's manual.

Now to your specific situation. I believe your tire has a belt separation and should be replaced at once. There may be warranty issues for you to discuss with your dealer. Also no matter what happens you need to file a complaint with NHTSA.

Before you get new tires get the actual tire loading and you can follow some of the previous suggestions for larger size and higher "Load Range" E vs D for example.


The new tires should have the load numbers on the tire greater than the load numbers on the old tires. See my blog

It has been recommended that the tire load capacity be at least 15% greater than the actual scale load on the heaviest position.

I also cover in my blog that towables and especially multi-axle 5th wheels should set their cold tire pressure to the pressure molded on the tire sidewall in the morning of each travel day.
Read this post in the Keystone forum.
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Old 12-23-2018, 10:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STJ View Post
I just bought a 2019 Outback 301 ubh.
My dealer and the info on the trailer recommends a tire pressure of 65 psi. I have always ran my trailer tires at max inflation 80 psi and when I checked the tires before leaving with the new trailer they were at 80. Which is were they have stayed for the first trip of 1500 miles.
My gross weight is 9500 lbs.
Maybe your trailer has LRD tires with max inflation of 65 PSI?
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Old 12-23-2018, 11:43 AM   #20
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My tires have 80 psi max on the side wall
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