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Old 07-22-2018, 01:49 PM   #21
bill-e
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foldback, congrats!

When you say "Factory Rep" are you referring to Keystone or the Window Manufacturer?
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Old 09-15-2018, 08:13 AM   #22
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Update. It's been almost a year since we bought the trailer.


I took it out last month after it sitting in the Sacramento heat for months. During prep we found that every wallpaper seam and molding was coming loose. We stored it with the shades down. When raising the shades all of the large shades wouldn't open because the pleats stated folding the opposite direction. While washing the trailer I discovered the rubber roof bubbling near the antenna and both door windows leaked. The awning wouldn't close all the way without pushing the front arm. The LPG tanks were empty due to leaking hoses at the tanks. Both of them at the crimp leaked.


Now were still waiting for the 7 leaking windows to to arrive for replacement. I took it back to the dealer. "Hi Mr. Baumgartner" I told them about all of the issues and they agreed to address them. They called with an update this week. Most of the items have been addressed. However the bubbling on the roof (which they thought was normal gassing) is a major problem. Keystone hasn't given them direction on how to fix it yet......The service manager says this roof cant be lifted and glued as it would destroy the plywood sub surface. So she's not sure whats going to happen.


REALLY?? The roof?? The whole reason for the replacement was water damage on my last trailer. I told her remove the generator and inverter and install them in a new trailer.......one that wasn't built in Oregon.....like that will happen...
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Old 09-24-2018, 04:06 PM   #23
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Let's look at what the OP provided us (which apparently is only one side of a "sketchy" story)......

"I discovered 2 windows had water in the frames after a storm. Took it to Folsom Lake RV for warranty. The pressure tested my trailer to find 7 windows leaking. Keystone is denying the warranty."

There is no indication of "HOW" the windows are leaking. Is it at the butyl seal behind the flange, at the frame, around the glass insert or another location? Now, his trailer has 9 windows. The two in the ends of the slide are the same style. The two at the ends of the rear of the trailer are the same style, all (emphasis on ALL) the remaining windows are different styles, different opening patterns, different shapes. So, there are 7 different shapes/styles of windows in the trailer.

What are the odds of 7 windows, all different shapes and opening patterns, all being defective and needing replacement? Not needing resealing or reseating, but replacement? I'd suspect that when Keystone got that request for warranty replacement, they also thought, "How the heck is this even possible?".... With the typical, sketchy warranty justification done by most dealerships, I'd suspect that there's no way on God's green earth" that Keystone (or any other manufacturer) is going to ship 7 replacement windows, all of which are different shapes to a dealer because all are "defective from the window manufacturer".... That just doesn't happen with windows from different lines, different shapes, different styles of opening, and possibly from different factories....

If I were at Keystone, the first thing I'd do with that claim is say, "No, I'm not shipping 7 windows to you, claim denied. Resubmit and tell me what is leaking and why the windows need replaced."

I can see a very remote possibility that there was a bad batch of putty tape, even a bad installation on one or maybe two windows, but 7 of 9?

So, while I feel the OP's frustration, I'd strongly suspect there's something very, VERY fishy at that dealer's service department. The odds of 7 windows, all different styles, all leaking, all on the same trailer, when there's not numerous reports of other trailers having the same problem? (trust me, if it was a "Keystone wide issue" this forum would be overflowing with complaints).....

If it was my trailer, I'd be at the dealership, talking to the general manager and the service manager (not the service writer) asking how is this even possible??????
Just picked up a 2019 Cougar from Folsom Lake RV. Had a problem right off the lot. Take a video with your phone of what they are doing or not doing and then follow your claim through. Ask lots of questions. I was not impressed with the service department at Folsom Lake RV at all. Basically had to stand there reading instructions to them. They cared (... and I appreciated that)just no clue on how to fix the problem.
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:45 PM   #24
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Update. It's been almost a year since we bought the trailer.


I took it out last month after it sitting in the Sacramento heat for months. During prep we found that every wallpaper seam and molding was coming loose. We stored it with the shades down. When raising the shades all of the large shades wouldn't open because the pleats stated folding the opposite direction. While washing the trailer I discovered the rubber roof bubbling near the antenna and both door windows leaked. The awning wouldn't close all the way without pushing the front arm. The LPG tanks were empty due to leaking hoses at the tanks. Both of them at the crimp leaked.


Now were still waiting for the 7 leaking windows to to arrive for replacement. I took it back to the dealer. "Hi Mr. Baumgartner" I told them about all of the issues and they agreed to address them. They called with an update this week. Most of the items have been addressed. However the bubbling on the roof (which they thought was normal gassing) is a major problem. Keystone hasn't given them direction on how to fix it yet......The service manager says this roof cant be lifted and glued as it would destroy the plywood sub surface. So she's not sure whats going to happen.


REALLY?? The roof?? The whole reason for the replacement was water damage on my last trailer. I told her remove the generator and inverter and install them in a new trailer.......one that wasn't built in Oregon.....like that will happen...
Worst thing to do is let the trailer sit in the hot sun for months all closed up. You should've put a cover on it and opened the ceiling vents.
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Old 10-03-2018, 07:56 AM   #25
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I'm sorry to hear others having issues with warranty service..makes me wonder if I didn't make a mistake in my purchase. Hopefully it all pans out for all of us in the end. (Honestly, a couple long term RV'ing buddies of mine suggested I buy late model used and just get used to fixing things myself. Considering I've been doing that with our old RV for over a decade, I now wonder if that just isn't less stressful overall than dealing with a dealership to try and get issues fixed....I'll probably take my buddies advice next time.)

I don't know if this will, in the long term, be borne out by the facts, but it SEEMS to me that having good communication with the manufacturer helps. The people on the phone may be trained to simply say "Yes sir", "No sir", and get you off the phone, but when I've had issues, and didn't feel like the dealership was giving them the importance they deserved, I've called Keystone. Long story short: The TECH at the dealership appears to be pretty savvy, but the service MANAGER is the most wishy-washy non-committal guy you will ever meet. He doesn't make you feel that your problem is really of any importance to him. He's "overworked, understaffed, has too much to do, yada yada yada". He's nice enough about it, but looking at the stacks of broken parts around his office waiting to be addressed, and all the RV's around the service bays, my impression of him is that his general procedure is to simply kick the can down the road for as long as he can before the work finally gets done.

Because of that, I've spoken to several different people at Keystone now, and I can state that they do listen and document issues. I've had the current person I've been speaking to on the phone run down nearly exactly what's been discussed in previous calls, so they seem to keep good notes in their computer, all connected to my trailer's VIN number. My main concern with the manufacturing so far was with the shelves that broke in my back closet...a totally avoidable design flaw that will cause every single one of them in every single trailer like mine to fail in the exact same way. I thought it would be good for Keystone to know that so they could make a change/improvement. Will they? Who knows. But considering mine broke the way they did within the first 100-200 miles of paved road travel, they'd better do something about it. The dealership eventually fixed them with some extra metal brackets, and they lasted through my last trip..which included a few miles of dirt road.

As I documented in another thread, I got pretty hot under the collar on another issue.
The dealership driving from 1 to 7 self-tapping screws into the electrical wiring while installing the enclosed underbelly that should have been installed at the factory. That seems like anywhere from a rookie mistake to total incompetence to me, and frankly, I don't trust the dealership to not "cut and splice and patch" when what really needs to happen is a complete replacement of that electrical line, conduit and all. That's what I'm demanding, anyway. The trailer is new, and it needs to be returned to new. The tech seemed to think it was a "20-30 minute repair". I'm not saying it ain't so..but if he can do it in that time frame he's a magician and worth twice whatever he's getting paid.

Because of the nature of the issue, and the safety issues concerning electricity, I called Keystone again. Primarily because I wanted everything documented with them. After feeling satisfied with communication with Keystone over several previous calls, I finally got a woman on the phone at Keystone who didn't appear to care about the issue. She said I was basically on my own in dealing the dealership. That angered me greatly, and I finally said "Look, I've owned the trailer for 3 months, and it's been at the dealership for ONE of those months. It was supposed to come from the factory with the underbelly. It's YOUR product. YOU forgot to install the underbelly. And YOUR dealership screwed up the installation. Apparently YOU should have had one of YOUR factory techs oversee the installation. YOU need to step in and help take care of it." Apparently, she detected my suddenly fairly stern tone, because she got another fellow on the phone right away who apparently had a bit more authority, because by the time I got off the phone with him, I was comfortable with giving the current dealership the chance to fix their mistake, AND got the commitment that if I wasn't happy with the workmanship, I could take it to the next closest dealer, about 40 miles away, for them to fix, and Keystone would handle everything with both dealerships. The fellow also sent me his email address and wants me to send him photos of the issues so they are documented. It remains to be seen how this is going to play out in the long run. I'm pretty sure the dealership is getting tired of dealing with me. But this problem is entirely on them.

All I can say to the original poster, along with everyone else who might be having issues, be nice and conversational at first and try to let everything work itself out. Anyone can make mistakes. But stand your ground, and if it drags out, it's time to put your foot down and escalate the issue.

My impression with Keystone is of course they should build a good product first and not make big stupid mistakes, but as one of their videos states "They're human". I've even referenced their own video in my conversations with them so they understand I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to make things right, per what their media on their website suggests. It's hard for them to argue with their own sales media. Their customer service TRIES, but they can only do so much from 1500 miles away. My issues appear to stem directly from the dealership. I'm not impressed with the dealership currently. But that could change.
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:12 PM   #26
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Often times claims are denied because its, the manner in which the dealer submits the claim. What exactly was the "PRESSURE TEST" they used and how did they document the results? If the windows leaked because of a bad seal around the frame, they didn't need to do that test and proper documentation would have most likely gotten the issue fixed. Im not here to defend Keystone, but I have worked long enough to see EVERY manufacturer tighten up on claims due to a high number of fraudulant claims.

It is sad that some legitimate claims get rejected, but with proper documentation and photos they can get approved. Its not an easy task in some cases, we have had a unit sit for 4 months as we "argue" back and forth, take more measurements, pictures and such. In the end we usually win.

I wouldnt be so quick to slam Keystone until you konw EVERYTHING about your claim, including the reason for denial.
The fact it took 4 months to fix the issue(s) is the problem. That is completely unacceptable. I can't wait to see how mine goes. Shower leaks out of the left and right corners with the plastic separating from the wall. I'm sitting here in the rain and found water puddling near the wall by the back door with no notable damp area leading to it. The rig is missing several trim pieces, and a screen on several windows. Back shade is broken and has been since day one. Ground control system will not auto retract, worked twice then broke. TV won't play sound with multiple blu ray players. The AC return and intake weren't seperated so the AC is just circulating cool air. It's like this thing was put together by the blind or dumb. This should be fun.
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:21 PM   #27
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The fact it took 4 months to fix the issue(s) is the problem. That is completely unacceptable. I can't wait to see how mine goes. Shower leaks out of the left and right corners with the plastic separating from the wall. I'm sitting here in the rain and found water puddling near the wall by the back door with no notable damp area leading to it. The rig is missing several trim pieces, and a screen on several windows. Back shade is broken and has been since day one. Ground control system will not auto retract, worked twice then broke. TV won't play sound with multiple blu ray players. The AC return and intake weren't seperated so the AC is just circulating cool air. It's like this thing was put together by the blind or dumb. This should be fun.
It seems this type of post is getting more and more frequent. Is the quality of RVs going downhill this fast? How can the manufacturers get a handle on such shoddy workmanship? If this was in the automotive industry the maker would be in dire straits to keep customers buying substandard junk. JMHO
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:23 PM   #28
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^^^^Remember the Yugo? That's about the quality that seems to come with RV's these days.
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:47 PM   #29
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I think the major problem is that Keystone cannot keep a handle on their dealers, who do not follow any standards when it comes to warranty service and repair.

Perhaps Keystone should be a bit more selective of who sells their product, so that only those capable of doing good service work remain.

Of course, that would cut into sales. And Keystones major focus is selling new RVs.
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:48 PM   #30
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It seems this type of post is getting more and more frequent. Is the quality of RVs going downhill this fast? How can the manufacturers get a handle on such shoddy workmanship? If this was in the automotive industry the maker would be in dire straits to keep customers buying substandard junk. JMHO
I'm wondering if the water is coming from the window. It has about a half inch gap in the moulding around the window. Both sides have the gap but only one is getting sprinkled on and its leaking. This is an Idaho desert rain so if we are lucky we will get 1/2 an inch over 24 hours.

I think the gent above me is correct and yugo quality is the issue.
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Old 10-09-2018, 05:45 PM   #31
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I think the major problem is that Keystone cannot keep a handle on their dealers, who do not follow any standards when it comes to warranty service and repair.

Perhaps Keystone should be a bit more selective of who sells their product, so that only those capable of doing good service work remain.

Of course, that would cut into sales. And Keystones major focus is selling new RVs.


Factory doesnít pick the dealer. Dealers pick the line they want to sell. As long as it doesnít infringe on another dealers ďterritoryĒ I see quality issues across the board from 15,000 entry level to 400,000.00 motorhomes. Factories canít keep up with demand. Iíve said it many times and Iíll say it again. Itís all about how the dealer addresses the issues that they can BEFORE delivery.

With that the other issue is finding/keeping qualified competent techs. These darn things are getting more complicated by the week and we donít get any notice of changes. Factories change the warranty process and just deny to deny. The dealer canít just ďeat the costĒ and expect to stay in business. Warranty labor rates and time allotted is set by the factory NOT the dealer. Canít keep going over and expect to stay in business. I could go on but Iím home for the evening and I want to relax. Iíd be more than happy to discuss this more with anybody via PM.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:01 PM   #32
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Factory doesnít pick the dealer. Dealers pick the line they want to sell. As long as it doesnít infringe on another dealers ďterritoryĒ I see quality issues across the board from 15,000 entry level to 400,000.00 motorhomes. Factories canít keep up with demand. Iíve said it many times and Iíll say it again. Itís all about how the dealer addresses the issues that they can BEFORE delivery.

With that the other issue is finding/keeping qualified competent techs. These darn things are getting more complicated by the week and we donít get any notice of changes. Factories change the warranty process and just deny to deny. The dealer canít just ďeat the costĒ and expect to stay in business. Warranty labor rates and time allotted is set by the factory NOT the dealer. Canít keep going over and expect to stay in business. I could go on but Iím home for the evening and I want to relax. Iíd be more than happy to discuss this more with anybody via PM.
Chuck,

I hope no one needs to discuss further; hopefully they understand the business paradigm and the drive to "make a dollar". So many confuse the RV process with the auto "process" and...they ain't the same. THE KEY is the dealership. One has to ascertain the competence level of the dealership (honesty, responsibility, etc.) before they make the purchase. If their due diligence failed they MUST take the dealership to task in a methodical, forceful way to achieve the desired results. "Hoping" and "asking" won't get the job done in many instances.

Relax, kick back and just peruse the posts; you're off and relaxing. Thanks for the input.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:02 PM   #33
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The other problem with every manufacturer is the manpower shortage in the factory areas, the requirement is they can walk in/ breathe on their own & make their mark on the contract, most are not the sharpest pencils in the drawer.
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Old 10-10-2018, 07:47 AM   #34
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The other problem with every manufacturer is the manpower shortage in the factory areas, the requirement is they can walk in/ breathe on their own & make their mark on the contract, most are not the sharpest pencils in the drawer.
Here's yet another "angle on the problem".....

Even if they were "the sharpest pencil in the drawer" and a "craftsman perfectionist", if the boss tells them to speed up production, ignore predrilling holes, don't measure precisely but use the pre-cut trim and staple it in place.... You get the picture: Even the most "perfect among us" if they are getting paid to do a job, have to follow the boss's instructions (or they won't be working long).

That's not to say there aren't some "dull pencils" around, but you can't blame all of Keystone's problems on the production workers.....
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:30 AM   #35
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Here's yet another "angle on the problem".....

Even if they were "the sharpest pencil in the drawer" and a "craftsman perfectionist", if the boss tells them to speed up production, ignore predrilling holes, don't measure precisely but use the pre-cut trim and staple it in place.... You get the picture: Even the most "perfect among us" if they are getting paid to do a job, have to follow the boss's instructions (or they won't be working long).

That's not to say there aren't some "dull pencils" around, but you can't blame all of Keystone's problems on the production workers.....

I agree. It's a systemic problem from the top down. When quantity is the driving factor and quality is hoped for but not demanded, it becomes a mindset. Then, those that remain for long enough, and are good enough at that routine, become the supervisors/managers and the process keeps procreating itself. Those that were perfectionists slowly lose that focus as the demand for quantity (and desire for a job) slowly pushes aside any concern (or time) for quality. It's a win, win for the company; not so much for the buyer.
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:44 AM   #36
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I have bought two Keystone trailers in Manitoba in two years(long story). Anyway we have had some issues with the first one which the dealer noticed not me and made the warranty claim. Interestingly enough I just had my new unit in for some end of year minor warranty work and they of course completed the work but did advise me that they actually dropped Keystone as a product line due to the large number of issues they were seeing. Not sure what to make of it but this dealer has been excellent from purchase through servicing since I started dealing with them. Take it for what it is but I found it telling.
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:27 PM   #37
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If they dropped Keystone, my guess is that another manufacturer offered them a more lucrative contractual arrangement. It's hard to say why a company does what they do, but almost always it revolves around where the dollars are greatest and most abundant. Some dealerships change through the years because one brand becomes more popular in an area while other's change because they can't get enough trailers shipped to them to meet the demand.

There is one ATV company that requires its dealerships to accept "forced shipments" at the end of the year. What happens is the dealerships get stuck paying the inventory interest on everything the factory doesn't want to leave sitting in their holding yards and dealers wind up with excess "last years models" that they can't sell at a profit. All the while, those ATV's sit on the dealership lot while the dealer pays his bank interest on inventory he can't sell, didn't want and doesn't need.

While I'm not saying that Keystone does that to dealers, there's a reason why any dealer drops a line. It almost always ends up that the reason is money. Dealers put up with a lot of crap as long as they're making enough money to justify the aggravation, but they end the relationship when the money doesn't do enough "talking"......
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:14 PM   #38
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I am sure you are correct. I am not well versed in that world and cannot speak to it. I can only say what they tell me. It may very well be the service manager tells me one thing and the owner is making decisions for a very different reason. As much as I like the Keystone line If I were to change trailers again I would have to switch brands as I would stick with the dealer as they have been great to deal with.
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:02 PM   #39
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warranty

Something to do with the quality of keystone units, we took a tour of the plant last year and they just happen to be building the unit we purchased. The area rep that was leading the tour made the statement that the workers get paid by the piece not by the hour, so when they meet there quota there done for the day.
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:18 PM   #40
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Something to do with the quality of keystone units, we took a tour of the plant last year and they just happen to be building the unit we purchased. The area rep that was leading the tour made the statement that the workers get paid by the piece not by the hour, so when they meet there quota there done for the day.
This production model absolutely requires extensive oversight and QC to assure a quality product or the employee's desire to either "turn out more pieces" or "get off early" will negatively affect the quality of whatever gizmo is being made. It is obvious Keystone and the rest of the RV manufacturers choose to "turn out the pieces" with little thought about the QC, which would affect both productivity and thereby cost. Ahhh, such is the world of RVs and having fun...
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