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Old 06-24-2018, 06:00 AM   #1
foldbak
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Keystone warranty NO joke!

Well here we are again. I've had my new 27SABWE for 7 months and I'm starting to seriously regret making this purchase. We've had numerous issues with this trailer and had to fight to get them addressed. To many to list. The latest is leaking windows. I discovered 2 windows had water in the frames after a storm. Took it to Folsom Lake RV for warranty. The pressure tested my trailer to find 7 windows leaking. Keystone is denying the warranty.



Is there such thing as a lemon law for trailers?
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Old 06-24-2018, 06:07 AM   #2
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I feel your pain. Yes, Keystone will often fight you tooth and nail to cover what is in their "warranty".
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Old 06-24-2018, 06:56 AM   #3
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Often times claims are denied because its, the manner in which the dealer submits the claim. What exactly was the "PRESSURE TEST" they used and how did they document the results? If the windows leaked because of a bad seal around the frame, they didn't need to do that test and proper documentation would have most likely gotten the issue fixed. Im not here to defend Keystone, but I have worked long enough to see EVERY manufacturer tighten up on claims due to a high number of fraudulant claims.

It is sad that some legitimate claims get rejected, but with proper documentation and photos they can get approved. Its not an easy task in some cases, we have had a unit sit for 4 months as we "argue" back and forth, take more measurements, pictures and such. In the end we usually win.

I wouldnt be so quick to slam Keystone until you konw EVERYTHING about your claim, including the reason for denial.
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:33 AM   #4
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Right now it sounds like you are in the "passenger" seat being an observer. Don't. You need to be the "driver", or at least the "copilot".

On our trailer I had 2 claims denied - obvious warranty issues. I provided details, pics and a written summary of what happened to a service writer. What they submitted to Keystone wasn't anything like what had been presented to them. I obtained the report they submitted and Keystone told me what had been given to them. I got the GM/SM of the dealership to intervene and handle the situation.....they were both approved and resolved.

In this case it sounds like you need to know a lot more other than it was denied. What exactly was the leak? Why were they pressure tested? How were they pressure tested? Was that at Keystone's direction? The questions that you need to ask are long. If you haven't involved the senior managers/owners of the dealership, you need to.

When an issue is one of neglect, out of warranty, a maintenance item; I understand a rejection. When something is obviously a warranty issue it needs to be covered - and all of mine were (many), but some took a great deal of effort to get done and I generally found it was a failure at the dealership level that caused that - running every problem thru the SM resolved that. Good luck to you.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:21 AM   #5
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I agree with Danny and Chuckster. Yes, it's all about how well the dealer's service folks documented the claim. But, it's also about the relationship the service dept. has with Keystone. As Danny says you have every right to get involved. Escalate to the GM at Folsom Lake. Have the GM give you the Keystone reps name and let him know what's going on. We are all used to (familiar with) how our other vehicle warranty issues are dealt with. The RV world is different. And, unfortunately, here in Utah there is no lemon law on RV's.
One thing I had to keep reminding myself as we went through this same agonizing process: "You get more bees with honey".
We got everything fixed and have had two seasons now with no further issues.
Hopefully your situation turns out the same.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:37 AM   #6
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It seems that the manufacturers are using the same trick the insurance companies have used for years; deny every claim on the first go-around. Many will give up and never re-submit the claim, thereby saving the company dollars, which is their primary goal. Keep submitting the claim and if necessary, get a lawyer. Most of theses companies are too cheap to hire good legal help and they will fold once they come up against a good one.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbell View Post
It seems that the manufacturers are using the same trick the insurance companies have used for years; deny every claim on the first go-around. Many will give up and never re-submit the claim, thereby saving the company dollars, which is their primary goal. Keep submitting the claim and if necessary, get a lawyer. Most of theses companies are too cheap to hire good legal help and they will fold once they come up against a good one.
Deny everything first go-around is not true at all. I will say there has been a few cases that took Additional “paperwork” but as I stated before, proper testing, documentation, photos and wording are key.

As far as getting an attorney, sure it’s your right, and once you get one, be ready for the dealer and Keystone to STOP any further efforts to resolve the issue until it goes to court....how ever long that may be.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:13 AM   #8
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"Most of theses companies are too cheap to hire good legal help and they will fold once they come up against a good one."


I don't think the above will be the case. Large companies, and Thor is large, have their own dedicated legal teams - all the ones I've worked for did. They don't "fold" because one owner challenges them in court. The owner, unless he has done an extreme amount of due diligence, and prepared in ways most owners won't/can't, won't come out on the winning end. What they will do is assure that whatever they were needing fixed is permanently denied and...….spend a lot of money out of their pockets. I would exhaust every means possible before pursuing legal action and then, only then, if the amount of requested repairs exceeded several thousand dollars....because that is what you will be out if you lose.
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Old 06-24-2018, 01:55 PM   #9
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Let's look at what the OP provided us (which apparently is only one side of a "sketchy" story)......

"I discovered 2 windows had water in the frames after a storm. Took it to Folsom Lake RV for warranty. The pressure tested my trailer to find 7 windows leaking. Keystone is denying the warranty."

There is no indication of "HOW" the windows are leaking. Is it at the butyl seal behind the flange, at the frame, around the glass insert or another location? Now, his trailer has 9 windows. The two in the ends of the slide are the same style. The two at the ends of the rear of the trailer are the same style, all (emphasis on ALL) the remaining windows are different styles, different opening patterns, different shapes. So, there are 7 different shapes/styles of windows in the trailer.

What are the odds of 7 windows, all different shapes and opening patterns, all being defective and needing replacement? Not needing resealing or reseating, but replacement? I'd suspect that when Keystone got that request for warranty replacement, they also thought, "How the heck is this even possible?".... With the typical, sketchy warranty justification done by most dealerships, I'd suspect that there's no way on God's green earth" that Keystone (or any other manufacturer) is going to ship 7 replacement windows, all of which are different shapes to a dealer because all are "defective from the window manufacturer".... That just doesn't happen with windows from different lines, different shapes, different styles of opening, and possibly from different factories....

If I were at Keystone, the first thing I'd do with that claim is say, "No, I'm not shipping 7 windows to you, claim denied. Resubmit and tell me what is leaking and why the windows need replaced."

I can see a very remote possibility that there was a bad batch of putty tape, even a bad installation on one or maybe two windows, but 7 of 9?

So, while I feel the OP's frustration, I'd strongly suspect there's something very, VERY fishy at that dealer's service department. The odds of 7 windows, all different styles, all leaking, all on the same trailer, when there's not numerous reports of other trailers having the same problem? (trust me, if it was a "Keystone wide issue" this forum would be overflowing with complaints).....

If it was my trailer, I'd be at the dealership, talking to the general manager and the service manager (not the service writer) asking how is this even possible??????
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:09 PM   #10
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We have a 2016 cougar .It has had a few issues during the warrantee period
#1 was the front spot lights were not sealed and the gasket was turning black.
# 2 the led lights on t he awning had 4 bulbs burned out
#3 The awning motor would not retract the awning.
#4 fractured elbow at the water inlet.
ALL of these were covered under warranty no hassle from the dealer or keystone.they also fixed some minor issue on both screen doors .and after we contacted keystone ourself they shipped the missing sink covers.this was Diamond RV in Hadley ma. We have absolutely no complaints with them or keystone.we were 180 miles away from the dealer and they came out and replaced the awning light strip about 20 ft long on site.i am sure everyone is not this lucky but that's how it worked for us.no complaints at all. YET.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:16 AM   #11
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I appreciate everyone's response and advice. I was a heavy equipment service manager and I completely how the system works. The fact is the claim is only as good as the service manager. However I also know that the manufacturer warranty department is trained to minimize payout to maximize profit. Biz 101!


FACT:

  • Standing water in two window channels after a heavy rain
  • Warranty was submitted to dealer with pictures
  • Dealer pressure tested the trailer with a Seal Tech positive pressure device. Soap solution is sprayed around every opening.
  • 7 windows failed around the window FACTORY seal. Indicating a bad run of windows or improper installation.
Warranty denied? Wrong answer from Keystone as far as I'm concerned. I purchased this NEW trailer because my old trailer leaked and had severe water damage. So far I'm not impressed with the build quality or warranty. I posted another thread here with my first set of warranty issues. That was a battle in it's self.



At the end of the day the problem starts at the manufacture. If the quality control was better and the assembly process was controlled we wouldn't be here.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:48 AM   #12
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.

I do not have the problems you have but on my 1800RB the build quality leaves a lot to be desired. Mostly design and finishing problems. They spend the money on supplies/parts, pay someone to do the work and then as the finish line approaches they fail.

I have fixed the fresh water tank drain. I will be re-routing the PEX water lines in the bathroom cabinet to get them out of the way. Next job is to use some iron-on wood trim on the footboard of the murphy bed. They just left the raw cut-off particle board showing. You can see it when the bed is down. Two, 3/4" x 3" strips would have fixed the situation.

I worked with a guy 30 years ago and his favourite saying was, "Never time to do it right, always time to do it again."

.
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:31 AM   #13
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[QUOTE
I worked with a guy 30 years ago and his favourite saying was, "Never time to do it right, always time to do it again."
.[/QUOTE]

That's what I was taught also!
The flaw with it in regards to the factory folks is they will NEVER be the ones to do it again, throw it together, get it out the door & done.
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:35 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by travelin texans View Post
[QUOTE
I worked with a guy 30 years ago and his favourite saying was, "Never time to do it right, always time to do it again."
.
That's what I was taught also!
The flaw with it in regards to the factory folks is they will NEVER be the ones to do it again, throw it together, get it out the door & done.[/QUOTE]


Yup, very sad !

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Old 06-25-2018, 12:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foldbak View Post
...
FACT:

  • Standing water in two window channels after a heavy rain
  • Warranty was submitted to dealer with pictures
  • Dealer pressure tested the trailer with a Seal Tech positive pressure device. Soap solution is sprayed around every opening.
  • 7 windows failed around the window FACTORY seal. Indicating a bad run of windows or improper installation.
Warranty denied? Wrong answer from Keystone as far as I'm concerned. I purchased this NEW trailer because my old trailer leaked and had severe water damage. So far I'm not impressed with the build quality or warranty. I posted another thread here with my first set of warranty issues. That was a battle in it's self.



At the end of the day the problem starts at the manufacture. If the quality control was better and the assembly process was controlled we wouldn't be here.
You still haven't established if it is the window manufacturer or the trailer manufacturer that has the "bad product".... It should not be up to you, but up to the service manager to make that determination and report it properly to Keystone where they will, make the determination whether to refer the problem to the window manufacturer (if it is a window issue) or accept the problem (if it is an installation issue).

There are two weep holes in the frame of every window. ALL of them will bubble when soapy water is sprayed over the frame with the interior of the trailer pressurized. That is "normal function" and is not a leaking window. So, until your service manager establishes that there is, in fact, a window manufacturer quality problem or a Keystone "window installation" problem, I would not expect Keystone to do anything other than say, "claim denied, submit specific problem with documentation". So far, all your service manager has done is say the window leaks. He has not, by your statement, established if it is a leaking window or a leaking window installation. Until then, don't expect resolution from Keystone...

I'd suspect that you're being jerked around by the dealership. They have the expertise (or should have) to determine exactly what is leaking and repair it, document it appropriately to be reimbursed by the manufacturer and resolve the problem.

If what you have posted is the "whole story" your dealership is letting you down.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
You still haven't established if it is the window manufacturer or the trailer manufacturer that has the "bad product".... It should not be up to you, but up to the service manager to make that determination and report it properly to Keystone where they will, make the determination whether to refer the problem to the window manufacturer (if it is a window issue) or accept the problem (if it is an installation issue).

There are two weep holes in the frame of every window. ALL of them will bubble when soapy water is sprayed over the frame with the interior of the trailer pressurized. That is "normal function" and is not a leaking window. So, until your service manager establishes that there is, in fact, a window manufacturer quality problem or a Keystone "window installation" problem, I would not expect Keystone to do anything other than say, "claim denied, submit specific problem with documentation". So far, all your service manager has done is say the window leaks. He has not, by your statement, established if it is a leaking window or a leaking window installation. Until then, don't expect resolution from Keystone...

I'd suspect that you're being jerked around by the dealership. They have the expertise (or should have) to determine exactly what is leaking and repair it, document it appropriately to be reimbursed by the manufacturer and resolve the problem.

If what you have posted is the "whole story" your dealership is letting you down.
I agree with John.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:17 PM   #17
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Technical problems / issues aside, document every call you make and keep notes of dates, names and what was said. As in every large company there are those who can get things done and those who just pass tickets / calls on to the next person. I've spoke with both Keystone, my dealer and their service reps, and a few equipment manufacturers more than than I care to mention in my first year with this camper. But having just got my dead reefer repaired @ n/c while it died on Friday the 13th, one day before the warranty expired both the manufacturer and Keystone the dealer did take care of the problem(s). I hope you have success in getting the issues addressed but I concur with you that the QC management needs to be overhauled.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foldbak View Post
I appreciate everyone's response and advice. I was a heavy equipment service manager and I completely how the system works. The fact is the claim is only as good as the service manager. However I also know that the manufacturer warranty department is trained to minimize payout to maximize profit. Biz 101!


FACT:

  • Standing water in two window channels after a heavy rain
  • Warranty was submitted to dealer with pictures
  • Dealer pressure tested the trailer with a Seal Tech positive pressure device. Soap solution is sprayed around every opening.
  • 7 windows failed around the window FACTORY seal. Indicating a bad run of windows or improper installation.
Warranty denied? Wrong answer from Keystone as far as I'm concerned. I purchased this NEW trailer because my old trailer leaked and had severe water damage. So far I'm not impressed with the build quality or warranty. I posted another thread here with my first set of warranty issues. That was a battle in it's self.



At the end of the day the problem starts at the manufacture. If the quality control was better and the assembly process was controlled we wouldn't be here.

What you have told me here, after so many experiences of my own, is that you have a dealer that is incapable of 1) diagnosing your problem in a logical way and 2) an inability to communicate what is required for a warranty approval to Keysstone. To have 7, 5, 3, 2 windows failed on 1 trailer...I doubt it highly....that is on the dealer, and the reason Keystone is saying...whaaaaat? No way.

If you think they have made the proper assessment, you might ask on this forum, of Keystone owners, how many have had 7, 5, 3 (or less) windows assessed as having internal leaks....good luck. Get on the dealer.
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Old 07-22-2018, 08:01 AM   #19
foldbak
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Yes 7 windows failed the pressure test. I forced the issue and a factory rep met with the service department and performed the test. Fail install. Warranty approved.
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Old 07-22-2018, 08:36 AM   #20
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Wow! Great news! I hope the factory rep, or someone at Keystone, is trying to figure out what in the world happened. To have that happen is extremely unusual....I hope.
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