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Old 01-28-2018, 05:51 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W View Post
In that case, the surge protector would say No Way.

Interesting as I have never seen any power service warning label beyond personal safety at any campground
I'm not sure that it would say..."No Way". If I'm not mistaken, the surge protectors are looking for 120VAC on each of the hot legs with respect to the neutral. So as long as you have 120V - N on one leg, then 120V - N on the other leg, life will be good. I don't think it monitors for the voltage phase to phase.
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Old 01-28-2018, 07:23 AM   #22
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I'm not sure that it would say..."No Way". If I'm not mistaken, the surge protectors are looking for 120VAC on each of the hot legs with respect to the neutral. So as long as you have 120V - N on one leg, then 120V - N on the other leg, life will be good. I don't think it monitors for the voltage phase to phase.
Product Features:
  • Over/Under voltage Protection
  • Open Ground, Open Neutral & Reverse Polarity Detection
  • Open Ground, Open Neutral & Reverse Polarity Protection
  • Accidental 240V Protection
  • Miswired Pedestal Indication
  • Surge Failure Indicator
  • Amperage Meter Display
  • Previous Error Code
  • A/C Frequency Protection
  • Time Delay (136 seconds)
  • Adjustable Time Delay
  • Thermally Protected
  • Built-in Scrolling Digital Display
  • Remote Display
  • Field Serviceable
  • UL Certified and Canadian Approved
  • Lifetime Warranty
  • Made in the USA

Product Specs:
Surge Protection: 5-Mode / 3,580J / 88,000A
Ratings: 50A / 120V/240V / 12,000W
Operating Temperatures: -40C to +105C
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Old 01-28-2018, 09:33 AM   #23
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I think the surge protector would show as one leg under voltage on the digital readout and not energize at all. In that case, out come the 30 amp cords
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Old 01-28-2018, 10:41 AM   #24
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I think the surge protector would show as one leg under voltage on the digital readout and not energize at all. In that case, out come the 30 amp cords
I'm curious why you would think that one leg would show undervoltage? Both legs, with respect to neutral would be 120VAC!

I'm thinking that it would work as it was made to do, as each leg is monitored separately as an input to the unit. I've sent an email to their tech support, so hopefully I'll have an answer soon and I will post up the answer here....that way we will all know for sure.
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:12 PM   #25
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I'm curious why you would think that one leg would show undervoltage? Both legs, with respect to neutral would be 120VAC!

I'm thinking that it would work as it was made to do, as each leg is monitored separately as an input to the unit. I've sent an email to their tech support, so hopefully I'll have an answer soon and I will post up the answer here....that way we will all know for sure.



Notice the attach specifications for the Progressive Industries Surge Protectors with EMS, both 30 and 50amp modules monitor for 104 to 132vac range. Any voltage outside this range will shutdown the connection.

On a side note, if your RV has a Energy Management System, the 50amp shore power is monitored for 240vac hot to hot. If not present, the system assumes you are using a 30amp adapter and shreds various loads to keep you under the 30amp limit.

Also the 120/240 volt availability is the result of a center tapped transformer, not a 3-phase delta connection. Itís sometimes called split-phase. Same as the service provided to your sticks and bricks home.



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Old 01-28-2018, 12:54 PM   #26
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What are the brand names and model numbers of the surge protectors you guys are talking about ?

.
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Old 01-28-2018, 01:27 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by shiggs68 View Post

Notice the attach specifications for the Progressive Industries Surge Protectors with EMS, both 30 and 50amp modules monitor for 104 to 132vac range. Any voltage outside this range will shutdown the connection.

On a side note, if your RV has a Energy Management System, the 50amp shore power is monitored for 240vac hot to hot. If not present, the system assumes you are using a 30amp adapter and shreds various loads to keep you under the 30amp limit.

Also the 120/240 volt availability is the result of a center tapped transformer, not a 3-phase delta connection. It’s sometimes called split-phase. Same as the service provided to your sticks and bricks home.



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Do you know for sure..100% that it is monitored for 240V? I was thinking that it monitored each individual hot leg, with respect to neutral. And also the question that I am wondering is that when they designed the system, did they build in the monitoring voltage to include a 208 wye connected system....and thus allow for the sensor to accept the 208 volt in addition to the normal 240V that it would see with a center-tapped single phase transformer.

I don't think I ever mentioned the words...."3-Phase Delta connection". But if the park is using a 3 phase wye type setup, then the first pedestal would most likely have phase A and phase B and a neutral. The second pedestal would have phase B and phase C and a neutral, then the third pedestal would have phase A and phase C and a neutral......then repeat for pedestals 4, 5, and 6.....and so on.

And the part above that you have circled in red, proves nothing, other than what the system monitors as far as 120 volts. As long as your voltage is within those parameters, it doesn't care if the voltage is coming from a single phase center-tapped transformer that you would traditionally see at your house, or if it is two of the three phases from a 3 phase wye connection......the monitoring points inside the EMS is looking for the 120 volts on both of the legs....or should I say, that the voltage is within the parameters that is set ...104 - 132 volts. It doesn't say anywhere that I can find that it is monitoring for 240Volts.
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Old 01-28-2018, 01:56 PM   #28
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.

What are the brand names and model numbers of the surge protectors you guys are talking about ?

.
Progressive Industries......EMS-HW50C. They make models for 30A and for 50A and they also make those same units with and without the display. In addition to those, they also make portable units for both 30A and 50A. Here is a link to their product page.....

http://www.progressiveindustries.net/our-products
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:01 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Hodgy View Post
.

What are the brand names and model numbers of the surge protectors you guys are talking about ?

.
This is what I run... won't own an RV without one... http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems-hw50c
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:02 PM   #30
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Thanks for the link.

Quite a difference in price between the plug in and hardwire.

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Old 01-28-2018, 02:04 PM   #31
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Do you know for sure..100% that it is monitored for 240V? I was thinking that it monitored each individual hot leg, with respect to neutral. And also the question that I am wondering is that when they designed the system, did they build in the monitoring voltage to include a 208 wye connected system....and thus allow for the sensor to accept the 208 volt in addition to the normal 240V that it would see with a center-tapped single phase transformer.

I don't think I ever mentioned the words...."3-Phase Delta connection". But if the park is using a 3 phase wye type setup, then the first pedestal would most likely have phase A and phase B and a neutral. The second pedestal would have phase B and phase C and a neutral, then the third pedestal would have phase A and phase C and a neutral......then repeat for pedestals 4, 5, and 6.....and so on.

And the part above that you have circled in red, proves nothing, other than what the system monitors as far as 120 volts. As long as your voltage is within those parameters, it doesn't care if the voltage is coming from a single phase center-tapped transformer that you would traditionally see at your house, or if it is two of the three phases from a 3 phase wye connection......the monitoring points inside the EMS is looking for the 120 volts on both of the legs....or should I say, that the voltage is within the parameters that is set ...104 - 132 volts. It doesn't say anywhere that I can find that it is monitoring for 240Volts.
Go back and look at my earlier post... it says Accidental 240V Protection
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:35 PM   #32
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.

Thanks for the link.

Quite a difference in price between the plug in and hardwire.

.
It all depends on your situation. If you plan to keep the rv for a long time, yes the hardwired is cheaper, but if trading in a couple years you'll have to pay for another hardwired one. I've used my portable for the last 10 years on 3 different rvs, so in my situation the portable was a lot cheaper than buying 3 hardwired ones.
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:08 PM   #33
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It all depends on your situation. If you plan to keep the rv for a long time, yes the hardwired is cheaper, but if trading in a couple years you'll have to pay for another hardwired one. I've used my portable for the last 10 years on 3 different rvs, so in my situation the portable was a lot cheaper than buying 3 hardwired ones.

The prices I looked at the hardwired was twice the price of the plug in.

I can't see us getting another TT.


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Old 01-28-2018, 03:19 PM   #34
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30 Amp vs 50 Amp

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Do you know for sure..100% that it is monitored for 240V? I was thinking that it monitored each individual hot leg, with respect to neutral. And also the question that I am wondering is that when they designed the system, did they build in the monitoring voltage to include a 208 wye connected system....and thus allow for the sensor to accept the 208 volt in addition to the normal 240V that it would see with a center-tapped single phase transformer.

I don't think I ever mentioned the words...."3-Phase Delta connection". But if the park is using a 3 phase wye type setup, then the first pedestal would most likely have phase A and phase B and a neutral. The second pedestal would have phase B and phase C and a neutral, then the third pedestal would have phase A and phase C and a neutral......then repeat for pedestals 4, 5, and 6.....and so on.

And the part above that you have circled in red, proves nothing, other than what the system monitors as far as 120 volts. As long as your voltage is within those parameters, it doesn't care if the voltage is coming from a single phase center-tapped transformer that you would traditionally see at your house, or if it is two of the three phases from a 3 phase wye connection......the monitoring points inside the EMS is looking for the 120 volts on both of the legs....or should I say, that the voltage is within the parameters that is set ...104 - 132 volts. It doesn't say anywhere that I can find that it is monitoring for 240Volts.


The PI EMS monitors each line for voltage within the stated ranges and does not care about it being a true 50amp split phase system. That allows the 50amp model to work when using a 30 to 50 adapter.

You didnít mention the ď3-phase deltaĒ. However, it was mentioned above by Gail2536.

And my comment on the monitoring for 240vac is for systems like the Precision Controls Energy Management System used in numerous Motorhomes and higher-end 5th wheels. That is the method to detect that a 30 to 50 adapter is being used. I mention this as their are campgrounds that cheat and provide the same phase to each leg. Which causes the userís system to think its connected to a 30amp source.

Sorry for the confusion.


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Old 01-28-2018, 03:40 PM   #35
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The prices I looked at the hardwired was twice the price of the plug in.

I can't see us getting another TT.


.
I installed mine in about an hour and 3 feet of cable... So removing it would probably take even less time..

As a note... I was looking at a new 5th wheel (375RD Avalanche) yesterday and the sales fellow asked me what I needed to buy it... I told him I didn't need nothing but that trailer needs a Progressive EMS, slide awnings, the washer dryer connections plugged and Maxxair vent fans in every vent with covers...
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Old 01-28-2018, 04:00 PM   #36
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Go back and look at my earlier post... it says Accidental 240V Protection
In my mind, that would basically mean that it is looking for an open neutral, which would then cause it to see the 240volts on the two line leads...vs. the 120 to neutral that it should be seeing.

The other "possibility" that might trigger the 240V protection is that if, when plugged in at a pedestal, one of the line leads and the neutral wire were swapped. That would generate and "E1" error code.

So, I still stand by my question....will the 208 wye connected supply voltage allow the unit to work as it should. I did email tech support at Progressive, but have not heard back from them yet.....it is the weekend and I really didn't prioritize it as something that needs attention NOW...so maybe tomorrow or Tuesday.
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Old 01-28-2018, 04:11 PM   #37
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In my mind, that would basically mean that it is looking for an open neutral, which would then cause it to see the 240volts on the two line leads...vs. the 120 to neutral that it should be seeing.

The other "possibility" that might trigger the 240V protection is that if, when plugged in at a pedestal, one of the line leads and the neutral wire were swapped. That would generate and "E1" error code.

So, I still stand by my question....will the 208 wye connected supply voltage allow the unit to work as it should. I did email tech support at Progressive, but have not heard back from them yet.....it is the weekend and I really didn't prioritize it as something that needs attention NOW...so maybe tomorrow or Tuesday.
Generally I've gotten an answer from them within a day.

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Old 01-28-2018, 06:18 PM   #38
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In my mind, that would basically mean that it is looking for an open neutral, which would then cause it to see the 240volts on the two line leads...vs. the 120 to neutral that it should be seeing.

The other "possibility" that might trigger the 240V protection is that if, when plugged in at a pedestal, one of the line leads and the neutral wire were swapped. That would generate and "E1" error code.

So, I still stand by my question....will the 208 wye connected supply voltage allow the unit to work as it should. I did email tech support at Progressive, but have not heard back from them yet.....it is the weekend and I really didn't prioritize it as something that needs attention NOW...so maybe tomorrow or Tuesday.
The Progressive unit, and we have the 50 amp hardwired one, does not monitor phase to phase voltage, only phase to ground and phase to neutral. It will work with either a 50 amp four wire source or a 30 amp three wire source equally well. It doesn't care how you get your 120 volt legs, whether they are two different legs like a normal 50 amp source or the same 120 volt leg, normally what you would have hooked up to a 30 amp source and with a 30 amp to 50 amp dogbone adapter. Because it doesn't look at the phase to phase voltage, it doesn't see 240 volts, 208 volts, or in the case of a 30 amp source split to feed both hotlegs of a 50 amp trailer, it would see 0 volts, because there is no voltage difference between two like legs. The accidental 240 volts it monitors is when an outlet, whether it is a 30 amp or a 50 amp, has a hot leg and neutral or ground in the wrong place, or as we have seen before when an electrician wires a 30 amp outlet like a dryer outlet with two hotlegs instead of just one 30 amp leg and everything in the rig burns up from 240 volt instead of 120 volts. If you look at the Error Code Chart in the Progressive manual, none of the error codes say anything about phase to phase voltages, only Line 1 Low or High Voltage or Line 2 Low or High Voltage. Hopefully, this answers any questions about what voltages are acceptable in these rigs. And, the photo that I posted earlier in this thread of the label that talks about 208 or 240 volts is what Keystone applied to our trailer below the shore cable connector where the 50 amp shore cable plugs into, and we have been in parks with 208 volts and everything worked as it was supposed to.
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Old 01-28-2018, 06:25 PM   #39
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So do some CG 30 amp plugs have two hot legs ?

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Old 01-28-2018, 06:52 PM   #40
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.

So do some CG 30 amp plugs have two hot legs ?

.


Better not! 3 wires:

Hot
Neutral
Ground
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