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Old 10-07-2018, 07:20 AM   #181
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Ain't nobody (that's conscious) tows nothing bigger than a jet ski on a trailer without "knowing it's back there". If they do "forget it's back there" they are the ones that are cutting off traffic as they "fly by and cut back into the right lane"....

Any vehicle that is capable of towing a 5 ton "box" with no physical limits that can be noticed, is not the kind of tow vehicle any of us could or would want to pull, given the "anti-dually" sentiment because of the "extra width"....

If you're in the "I can't tell it's back there" crowd, please buy larger rear view mirrors and put a yellow flashing light on each side of your trailer so you can keep reminding yourself that, "Yes, Dorothy, this is Kansas".....
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Old 10-07-2018, 07:26 AM   #182
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A Class A is not happening due to multiple factors, primary among them is cost (both upfront and ongoing). Driving one is also a completely different game from having something that can bend in the middle

I have no illusions about whether I know the trailer is back there or not, IT IS.

And on the anti-dually sentiment - the second wheel does not stick out any further than the trailering mirrors do so that is all fear and feelings vs actual reality in my mind.

But back to tires I will try them out at 80 PSI and see how things feel. Thanks again for the help guys!
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Old 10-17-2018, 05:53 PM   #183
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Misapplications of replacement tires

This subject will normally be hotly debated when it comes-up in tire forum threads. In this presentation I’m going to provide information from numerous references. It’s the only way a reasonable explanation of misapplications can be described. Try to remember, when reading this, that I’m presenting this information from numerous regulating regulations and tire industry standards.

The reference to a tire being misapplied is most commonly found in individual tire manufacturer tire warranty information documents. In that context they just use the word without any explanations. That opens the door to all sorts of speculations. For this presentation the word misapplication means, to use something for the wrong purpose or in the wrong way.

For there to be an official wrong way there has to be a precedent somewhere that describes the wrong way. Sure enough, there is. It’s in an active federal regulation for tire inspections. Here is the verbiage; “A mismatch in size and construction between tires on the same axle, or a major deviation from the size recommended by the vehicle or tire manufacturer, is a cause for rejection.” The prefix in this tire size example, LT235/85R16 is officially part of the tire’s size. Therefore, LT describes a tire designed primarily for Light Truck applications. In this size, ST235/85R16, the ST describes a tire designed for Special Trailer service. One used in place of the other is a major deviation.

There are several ways to work around the misapplication. One is to use tires clearly marked with , “ for trailer service only”, on their sidewalls, to replace ST tires. The most common tire in that category is the Goodyear G614 RST. Another option is to ask the vehicle manufacturer to approve a replacement tire, of your choice, for replacing the OE tires they installed on your trailer. NHTSA approves the use of an axillary tire placard, adjacent to the original placard, when ‘plus sized” tires are approved and installed as replacements. It needs to show the replacement tire size, maximum load capacity and recommended cold inflation pressures. I’d also want a signed endorsement from the vehicle manufacturer supporting their approved use of such replacements.
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Old 10-18-2018, 04:33 AM   #184
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...."Another option is to ask the vehicle manufacturer to approve a replacement tire, of your choice, for replacing the OE tires they installed on your trailer. NHTSA approves the use of an axillary tire placard, adjacent to the original placard, when ‘plus sized” tires are approved and installed as replacements. It needs to show the replacement tire size, maximum load capacity and recommended cold inflation pressures. I’d also want a signed endorsement from the vehicle manufacturer supporting their approved use of such replacements."
Good luck with that. Have you EVER heard of this being done? My guess would be IF you received a response it would be a canned statement in legalese.
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Old 11-06-2018, 01:14 PM   #185
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When I write things like that I’m almost always getting the information from established industry references. So, lets look at some of them.

The following quote is verbatim from the 2019 Keystone generic owner’s manual. It’s a standard answer that is placed in all RV trailer owner’s manuals as mandated by NHTSA. “The” tire dealer they refer to is the one selling that size and brand.

“To maintain tire safety, purchase new tires that are the same size as the vehicle’s original tires or another size recommended by the manufacturer. Look at the Tire and Loading Information label, or the sidewall of the tire you are replacing to find this information. If you have any doubt about the correct size to choose, consult with the tire dealer.”

The following information is about replacement tires and is the tire industry standard, as written in the RV section of the USTMA PDF.

“When tires need to be replaced, do not guess what tire is right for the vehicle. For the answer, refer to the vehicle tire placard, certification label, or in the vehicle owner’s manual for any additional tire replacement recommendations. The vehicle tire placard identifies the size of the tires, including the spare, that were installed on the vehicle as original equipment (OE). The placard also specifies the recommended cold inflation pressures for the tires on all axles and for the spare. If the vehicle does not have a vehicle tire placard or certification label, consult the vehicle owner’s manual, vehicle manufacturer, or tire manufacturer. A tire dealer should also be familiar with these requirements and is an excellent resource.”

All replacement tire fitments have a set of standards to follow. The USTMA establishes replacement tire standards. Each tire manufacturer may say it a little differently, but the result will be the same. Here is how Michelin says it.

For maximum safety, Michelin recommends to only replace your tires with the same size recommended by the vehicle manufacturer.

Some advice; Never choose a tire that is smaller in size or has less load-carrying capacity than the tire that came with the vehicle.

Tires should always be replaced with the same size designation — or approved options — as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer.

The correct tire size designated for your vehicle should always be verified with the information in your vehicle owner’s manual or on the tire information sticker/certification label.

Note: It’s common for me to list Michelin references even though they don’t manufacturer ST tires. I live 10 miles from Michelin of North America.

Note: A tire size designation does not include the tire's load range/service description.
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Old 11-06-2018, 01:25 PM   #186
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Tire Info

Very interesting
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Old 11-06-2018, 02:31 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
When I write things like that I’m almost always getting the information from established industry references. So, lets look at some of them.

The following quote is verbatim from the 2019 Keystone generic owner’s manual. It’s a standard answer that is placed in all RV trailer owner’s manuals as mandated by NHTSA. “The” tire dealer they refer to is the one selling that size and brand.

“To maintain tire safety, purchase new tires that are the same size as the vehicle’s original tires or another size recommended by the manufacturer. Look at the Tire and Loading Information label, or the sidewall of the tire you are replacing to find this information. If you have any doubt about the correct size to choose, consult with the tire dealer.”

The following information is about replacement tires and is the tire industry standard, as written in the RV section of the USTMA PDF.

“When tires need to be replaced, do not guess what tire is right for the vehicle. For the answer, refer to the vehicle tire placard, certification label, or in the vehicle owner’s manual for any additional tire replacement recommendations. The vehicle tire placard identifies the size of the tires, including the spare, that were installed on the vehicle as original equipment (OE). The placard also specifies the recommended cold inflation pressures for the tires on all axles and for the spare. If the vehicle does not have a vehicle tire placard or certification label, consult the vehicle owner’s manual, vehicle manufacturer, or tire manufacturer. A tire dealer should also be familiar with these requirements and is an excellent resource.”

All replacement tire fitments have a set of standards to follow. The USTMA establishes replacement tire standards. Each tire manufacturer may say it a little differently, but the result will be the same. Here is how Michelin says it.

For maximum safety, Michelin recommends to only replace your tires with the same size recommended by the vehicle manufacturer.

Some advice; Never choose a tire that is smaller in size or has less load-carrying capacity than the tire that came with the vehicle.

Tires should always be replaced with the same size designation — or approved options — as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer.
The correct tire size designated for your vehicle should always be verified with the information in your vehicle owner’s manual or on the tire information sticker/certification label.

Note: It’s common for me to list Michelin references even though they don’t manufacturer ST tires. I live 10 miles from Michelin of North America.

Note: A tire size designation does not include the tire's load range/service description.
So CAL, when your Everest came with LRD ST 16", did not continue to install the same thing for years, or did you realize the manufacturer sent it out with tires not up to the job. Even when you upgraded to LRE tires did you not continue to experience tire failures? I little background on your personal tire experience might be a debate equalizer.

Over the years I have seen you continue to post the goodness of ST tires for trailers despite many personal failures. During a similar time frame I ran LT XPS Ribs and R250's without a single failure. How do you explain that?

Without Goodyear's newer Endurance ST, I would have most likely looked to the Goodyear Cargo regional service van/truck tire or the Maxxis Bravo for our new bumper pull this summer.
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Old 11-07-2018, 08:57 AM   #188
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Sorry, unsat response.
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Old 11-07-2018, 02:53 PM   #189
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Those are not trailer tires. They are European designed commercial tires for light vehicles. Much of your Keystone warranty may have been voided with their use. I can show you why that action would have been a misapplication but I know from past experiences that would not be fruitful.

Couldn't be any worst than this.

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Old 11-07-2018, 04:04 PM   #190
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So CAL, when your Everest came with LRD ST 16", did not continue to install the same thing for years, or did you realize the manufacturer sent it out with tires not up to the job. Even when you upgraded to LRE tires did you not continue to experience tire failures? I little background on your personal tire experience might be a debate equalizer.

Over the years I have seen you continue to post the goodness of ST tires for trailers despite many personal failures. During a similar time frame I ran LT XPS Ribs and R250's without a single failure. How do you explain that?

Without Goodyear's newer Endurance ST, I would have most likely looked to the Goodyear Cargo regional service van/truck tire or the Maxxis Bravo for our new bumper pull this summer.
I'm wondering if your intention is to post information beneficial to members or just troll CW and continuously rap ST tires that most folks use....as the manufacturers recommend??
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Old 11-07-2018, 04:15 PM   #191
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I'm wondering if your intention is to post information beneficial to members or just troll CW and continuously rap ST tires that most folks use....as the manufacturers recommend??
If you knew what the manufacturers paid Tredit and Tireco for a RV wheel and chinese ST tire you might change you feeling on the issue. If you see a china bomb ST235/80R16E at retail for 60 or 70 dollars, what do you think a train car load of them cost the trailer manufactures.

Lucky there are slowly becoming some better quality ST available, however it has been a long and bumpy road getting to this point. Cal's record speaks for it's self. He is all over the inter with many different user names promoting ST tires as if his is on the manufacturers payroll.

Enough said. Chris
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Old 11-07-2018, 04:34 PM   #192
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Snoking, "Enough said. Chris" If there is a god, and there certainly is, you will be telling the truth.
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Old 11-08-2018, 06:38 AM   #193
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Tire industry news has reported that Triangle Tires will soon be manufactured at a NC plant. The attached reference depicts their tire line-up.

They have added a ST235/80R16 LRF.

http://triangletireus.com/truck-tires/tr653/
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Old 11-08-2018, 02:39 PM   #194
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If you knew what the manufacturers paid Tredit and Tireco for a RV wheel and chinese ST tire you might change you feeling on the issue. If you see a china bomb ST235/80R16E at retail for 60 or 70 dollars, what do you think a train car load of them cost the trailer manufactures.

Lucky there are slowly becoming some better quality ST available, however it has been a long and bumpy road getting to this point. Cal's record speaks for it's self. He is all over the inter with many different user names promoting ST tires as if his is on the manufacturers payroll.

Enough said. Chris
Chris, enough. This isn't the Duramax forum. Here, we all have to play nice and be courteous to each other.
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Old 11-08-2018, 03:09 PM   #195
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Our 2005 Copper Canyon came with LT 235/85-16Es even though my GVWR is 12,360. Being a 2005 I don't have the yellow sticker, just the VIN weight statement inside a cabinet door near the sink, where it holds up a lot better!
I do have an email from Keystone with the build information that states LT 235/85-16s were installed at the factory.

Just saying.
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Russ. If your vehicle did not have the requires Vehicle certification label (GAWR, VIN, Tire Size and inflation plus other information) you need to file a complaint with NHTSA as your RV is not in compliance with DOT regulations and Coper Canyouis required to fix the situation. maybe all they will do is mail you a tticker. I don't know what they will do but theyMUST have the placard on the outside driver side toward the front. That's the law.
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:02 PM   #196
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Designated tire size

For the last couple of weeks I’ve been updating my vast library of tire references. In doing so I’ve determined that in many instances, I’ve been as negligent in writing about tire sizes, as many of the writers of official documents have been.

All of the references that I’ve updated have been more concise with tire descriptions. In the past, tire size was just a couple of words (tire size) put together to inform the reader what a topic might be about. The industry using that short two word phrase was being lackadaisical in their presentation. So was I. Tire size, in itself, does not actually describe a tire’s intended use. Its intended use is only evident when a vehicle manufacturer selects it for use on a specific vehicle. That is done in the vehicle’s final certification process. The governing body document, for RV trailer tires, is the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). So, here’s a list of designated tire sizes you may find on your trailer’s axles.

ST225/75R15
LT225/75R15
P225/75R15
215/75R17.5

The significance of the prefix in a tire’s designated size is to distinguish its basic design from other designs

The Rubber Manufactures Association (RMA) has recently renamed itself, US Tire manufacturers Association (USTMA). This is a quote from their current document of industry standards;

(“Replacement tires should be the same as the OE size designation, or approved options, as recommended by the vehicle or tire manufacturer. Never choose a replacement tire of a smaller size or with less load-carrying capacity than the OE tire size at the specified vehicle tire placard pressure.”)

You see, they have done it again. At least they set the precedent (size designation) early in the paragraph so they could shorten it later.
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:29 PM   #197
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For the last couple of weeks I’ve been updating my vast library of tire references. In doing so I’ve determined that in many instances, I’ve been as negligent in writing about tire sizes, as many of the writers of official documents have been.

All of the references that I’ve updated have been more concise with tire descriptions. In the past, tire size was just a couple of words (tire size) put together to inform the reader what a topic might be about. The industry using that short two word phrase was being lackadaisical in their presentation. So was I. Tire size, in itself, does not actually describe a tire’s intended use. Its intended use is only evident when a vehicle manufacturer selects it for use on a specific vehicle. That is done in the vehicle’s final certification process. The governing body document, for RV trailer tires, is the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). So, here’s a list of designated tire sizes you may find on your trailer’s axles.

ST225/75R15
LT225/75R15
P225/75R15
215/75R17.5

The significance of the prefix in a tire’s designated size is to distinguish its basic design from other designs

The Rubber Manufactures Association (RMA) has recently renamed itself, US Tire manufacturers Association (USTMA). This is a quote from their current document of industry standards;

(“Replacement tires should be the same as the OE size designation, or approved options, as recommended by the vehicle or tire manufacturer. Never choose a replacement tire of a smaller size or with less load-carrying capacity than the OE tire size at the specified vehicle tire placard pressure.”)

You see, they have done it again. At least they set the precedent (size designation) early in the paragraph so they could shorten it later.
So, then.... it would be acceptable to replace an ST235/80R/16 with an LT235/85R/16 because SIZE does matter and the ST vs LT debate is dead... ? ? ?
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:50 PM   #198
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So, then.... it would be acceptable to replace an ST235/80R/16 with an LT235/85R/16 because SIZE does matter and the ST vs LT debate is dead... ? ? ?
Sorry you got that impression.

The FMVSS describes a LT tire as being designed for Light Trucks. The ST tire is a Special Trailer tire. Therefore, interchangeability would require approval from the vehicle manufacturer as per USTMA standards.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:38 AM   #199
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After years of trailer tire debates, we can all be thankful that there are now much better offerings available.
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:41 AM   #200
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So, then.... it would be acceptable to replace an ST235/80R/16 with an LT235/85R/16 because SIZE does matter and the ST vs LT debate is dead... ? ? ?

I doubt that the debate is dead as long as some want to treat all customers/RV owners as an un-informed mass.


End users are not required to follow the regulations placed on Tire companies or RV assembly plants.


If you care about safety then you do need to follow the general guideline of ensuring that any replacement tire has equal or better specifications for Load and speed capacities. Some folks seem to have a difficulty in understanding the intent behind published standards and fall back on "Do exactly what the words say" nothing less and nothing more and certainly do not think for yourself.


Can you replace an ST235/80R16 with an LT235/85R16? It depends.


What is the load capacity of the ST tire? 2,600# @ 50psi or 3,000# @ 65 or 3420 @ 80 psi ? The example didn't identify the Load Range. Is the ST rated for 65 mph or 75 mph or greater? again incomplete information was provided in the question.



LT235/85R16 in a single application could be rated for 2,623# @ 65psi or 3,042#@80 or 3,415#@95 and the speed ratings could be anything from N ( 87mph) to I suppose H (130mph)


So if the original tire was an ST235/80R16 LR-E Speed L then an LT235/85R16 LR-F Speed N would not be recommended by any competent tire engineer. maybe a tire salesman would as he wants to make the sale.
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