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Old 10-16-2017, 07:58 AM   #1
ptooti
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Choked! 19RB Deal breaker!!

In anticipation of our new unit and awaiting arrival I have been doing much research I discovered that the unit that I'm supposed to be getting does not have the black frameless windows like what I was expecting I told the dealer this is a deal breaker for me he told me they switched back to the old type windows because of too many problems with the frameless ones can anyone chime in on this about the windows please and do you think my dealer is scamming me for cheaper windows to equal bigger profit? is it true or did they go away from frameless?? I'm pannicked I told my dealer its a deal breaker and I dont want the unit then he said its on the assemply line now due for delivery in Novemeber I told him too bad I dont want so dont ship it waiting to hear back I'm in a fluster I told him I dont want NO Surprizes!

**** UPDATE****FROM****KEYSTONE****
The mid year changes to the unit are as follows:

Just to recap all the extras you get in the new 2018 Elite:
3/4 White fade resistant cap (this has changed from a full nose cap)
8 cu ft fridge - Larger Fridge
Glass top flush mount stove
Aluminum steps
Slam latch baggage doors
3-YEAR WARRANTY!!! (this was not in effect until 9/1, so units that came off line before that date still only have the 1 year warranty)

this is the walk through filmed less than a month ago https://my.matterport.com/show/?m=ZMvE1n8J3Pb
************************************************** ************
this is what they want to send me small slider windows

as opposed to what I wanted and thought I was getting

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Old 10-16-2017, 08:04 AM   #2
Terry W.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptooti View Post
In anticipation of our new unit and awaiting arrival I have been doing much research I discovered that the unit that I'm supposed to be getting does not have the black frameless windows like what I was expecting I told the dealer this is a deal breaker for me he told me they switched back to the old type windows because of too many problems with the frameless ones can anyone chime in on this about the windows please and do you think my dealer is scamming me for cheaper windows to equal bigger profit? is it true or did they go away from frameless?? I'm pannicked I told my dealer its a deal breaker and I dont want the unit then he said its on the assemply line now due for delivery in Novemeber I told him too bad I dont want so dont ship it waiting to hear back I'm in a fluster I told him I dont want NO Surprizes!

this is what they want to send me small slider windows

as opposed to what I wanted and thought I was getting

Personally I would not have the frameless windows. I have read too many stories of the windows following off.

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Old 10-16-2017, 08:06 AM   #3
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Just a thought. The windows appear to be the same size. In the frameless windows, only the bottom third opens up. ON the sliders, a larger surface area opens allowing more air into the camper.

I have had both types in campers, and i really do not notice any difference in the two. Just curious, why would the slider windows be a deal breaker? Maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:10 AM   #4
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Im imagining standing beside the bed to look out and having to bend over to see out there is a difference in visible realestate there
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:11 AM   #5
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and we have a pet i think with awning style we can go out with the windows open if it rains a bit the water wont come in
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:15 AM   #6
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I have had both. I have had frameless since 2011. The airflow is slightly reduced with frameless but the benefit of being able to leave them open in the rain outweighs that. I actually leave a window or two open when parked while not in use.
Never had a single issue with frameless. They use sliding windows in the slide out sides. I have had two of those sliding windows be tough to slide open and closed. Can the tracks, or sills, be lubricated?
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:17 AM   #7
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Im imagining standing beside the bed to look out and having to bend over to see out there is a difference in visible realestate there
I'll give you that. To each his own. I'm only 5'10", so I don't have to do much bending over to look out. Unless you were around 6'6", I don't think you'd have to bend over much. But at that eighth, you'd already be bending over to not bump the ceiling.

Something to consider is that the frameless windows do have the propensity to fall out, as pointed out above. And bigger windows allow in bigger light and more heat. For me, heat is a killer and I like a dark room. But to each his own.
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:21 AM   #8
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and we have a pet i think with awning style we can go out with the windows open if it rains a bit the water wont come in
I would caution against leaving an awning out and not being around. It does not take a lot of wind to rip one off of the side of a trailer. I have two large dogs, but I do not leave my windows open. They bark loudly and I don't want to disturb others. Just my 2 cents. The decision has to be yours alone.


Good luck in your decision. I hope it all works out for you.
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:23 AM   #9
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If you go inside the trailer and look at the window frame, both the "frameless" and the "aluminum framed" windows have an aluminum frame. The difference is what you see on the outside. On the aluminum framed window, the frame is attached to the trailer wall with an aluminum flange. On the frameless window, the aluminum frame is attached to the trailer wall with a glass flange (so you don't see the aluminum frame). Otherwise, the windows are essentially identical in actual "glass inside the aluminum frame". There is an "appearance of more glass" on the frameless windows, but from the inside looking out, it's the same "glass surface that passes light".

There have been some significant problems with the bonding of glass to the aluminum frame on "frameless windows". It's mostly related to the glue that holds the glass to the window frame. On the aluminum framed windows, the glass is secured with rubber moldings, a much more reliable means to keep the glass from falling off the trailer.

It's your choice, possibly your dealer can find a trailer that's on a lot somewhere with the frameless windows if that's your preference, but realize that it won't be a "new trailer, fresh off the assembly line" but one that may have been sitting on a lot with a number of people walking through it, twisting knobs, jumping on the floor, soiling the upholstery and carpet and who knows how long the sun has shined on those "less than great" OEM tires.

ADDED: Dealers don't get to pick and choose how a trailer is assembled by Keystone, so don't assume that your dealer is doing a "bait and switch" to make more money from your sale. Keystone does "reserve the right to make mid year changes without notice" and that information is in a disclaimer found somewhere on every trailer brochure. I wouldn't believe that it's some kind of conspiracy between the dealer and Keystone to "bilk you out of your money".....
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:30 AM   #10
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The deal breaker for me would be the dealer "lying" to me by saying they are having problems with the frameless window. We have a 23RB with frameless windows. Unless I've missed the memo there are no problems that I have heard about or have experienced with the windows. I'd be good with either. What I have issues with is salemen who are full of ****.
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:42 AM   #11
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I shopped at Lerch and donít remember the issue I had but remember it was enough to walk away from the deal.


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Old 10-16-2017, 09:18 AM   #12
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I have bark control for my dog and the awning open with roof fan on is good ventilation I would never leave my pet in a trailer closed up in the hot weather if for some reason the power tripped they could die I'm not comfortable willing to risk having the awning style windows
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Old 10-16-2017, 09:21 AM   #13
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details

ok well if you look at the smaller slider windows in the pic the one in the bed area appears the bottom of it is at the same height as the handle on the entry door or groin height I dont know by my eyes are substantially higher then groin height

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctbruce View Post
Just a thought. The windows appear to be the same size. In the frameless windows, only the bottom third opens up. ON the sliders, a larger surface area opens allowing more air into the camper.

I have had both types in campers, and i really do not notice any difference in the two. Just curious, why would the slider windows be a deal breaker? Maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 10-16-2017, 09:44 AM   #14
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I've had both and don't know that having either would be a deal breaker for me on a new trailer. I like the looks of the frameless and the way they open on the bottom. I like the other because of the simpler installation and easier repairs. The opening for the frameless, a small section at the bottom of the window, reduces airflow but keeps rain out. The non frameless allows more air but lets rain in. As far as the size of the bedroom window you reference, I don't think that would make any difference to me. I don't look out of my bedroom windows anyway (not any of the 3 of them). Of course, to each his own, but to my thinking it's not enough of an issue to stop the sale. JMO
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Old 10-16-2017, 09:48 AM   #15
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thank you

Thanks that's why I'm asking opinions I'm in communication with the rep in Indiana over this right now and he is telling me they switched this over mid sept to keep these windows to lower cost and provide other features. Still those small windows are a deal breaker I told him will see what comes maybe shopping still I guess
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The deal breaker for me would be the dealer "lying" to me by saying they are having problems with the frameless window. We have a 23RB with frameless windows. Unless I've missed the memo there are no problems that I have heard about or have experienced with the windows. I'd be good with either. What I have issues with is salemen who are full of ****.
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Old 10-16-2017, 10:10 AM   #16
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The vertical mullion would be of concern to me. The seal at the bottom degrades over time and allows water to penetrate the wall cavity. Had this issue on another trailer brand.


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Old 10-16-2017, 11:19 AM   #17
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For anyone that is interested, here is a report concerning everyone's issues with bad salesmen, dealers, manufactures of rv units and to include promised hype..
this report will make you wonder about the quality and the competence of the human factor plus the integrity of some people to make a sale.

http://rvdr-cdn3.appxtreme.com/wp-co...ompilation.pdf
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:01 PM   #18
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Zuley, I believe if you peruse the other forums or ask your friend Google you'll find that there is a little problem with the frameless windows falling out. Again quoting another member: JM2cents
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:32 PM   #19
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I have the 2017 Passport Elite and have towed it all this year since May, and have not had one issue with my frameless windows. I actually like them. You can leave them open during the rain. The only time rain has come in was through the sliders on the slide out. Thatís my 2 cents.


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Old 10-17-2017, 05:24 AM   #20
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Zuley, I believe if you peruse the other forums or ask your friend Google you'll find that there is a little problem with the frameless windows falling out. Again quoting another member: JM2cents

Thankyou NTL. I was not aware of that. Still does not change my opinion of RV salesmen though. :-) I'll have to keep an eye on mine. Personally I'm not happy with the limited amount the frameless window open, probably only swing out 3 inches at the bottom. I don't give it a lot of thought though.
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