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Old 09-10-2016, 10:03 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by CWSWine View Post
Not sure where you getting that anything over 10,000 lbs needs a DRW. I have a 2016 Montana 3711FL and tow it with a Ford F350 SRW with a yellow payload sticker says it has 3744 payload. I within all my numbers including my GVWR and that from the CAT scales not a stubby pencil. Here are my numbers from the CAT scale put into towing planner.

http://towingplanner.com/ActualWeigh...&w2da=3480&a=2
I didn't say couldn't I said wouldn't because you're putting your self on the edge with little room for growth.

I did a calculation using a 3500 SRW instead of the DRW but everything else being the same including a 1,500 pounds for your family, hitch and other stuff. One difference is that it only comes with a 3.42 ratio. You can reduce that weight but that's what I'm using.

With the ASIN comes the GTW/max pin weight is 13,125/2,625. So yes it can tow it.
With the 68RFE it's almost the same. Basically with the SWR drive the ASIN doesn't by you much.

I haven't found the F350 2016 CC numbers so I used the 2017 ones. A 2016 won't be able to tow as much. Fords chart is harder to follow since it's all broken up compared to RAMs easy to follow chart so I hope I got this right. The GTW/max pin weight calculates to 11,615/2,323 pounds.

It does seem that something might be wrong with the numbers since I expected the 2017 F350 SRW would have come out on top so I'll go back and recheck everything when I do the calculations for the F350 DWR drive. especially if I can find a better chart.

If I got it right you don't have a lot of margin for growth if you later decide to get a heaver trailer. Adding DRW gets you a lot more towing ability plus DRW is more stable when towing.

So it really comes down to what you want. We're looking at a 15K trailer so I'll stick with a DWR drive 1 ton truck.

As far as using a 3/4 ton, their GVWR maxes out around 10K and they weigh about the same as the 1 ton SWR so you'll loose about 1,000 pounds of payload, thus lower pin weight. Drop the pin weight by 1,000 pounds you drop the towable trailer weight by about 5,000 pounds base on pin weight being 20% of trailer weight.

BTW, I usually take the trucks payload capacity less what ever I want to carry including the hitch weight and multiply by the result by 5 to get a rough idea how much I can tow. So if the payload it 4,000 pound less say 1,000 pounds of payload and hitch gives 3,000 pounds times 5 equals a 15,000 pound 5th wheel trailer. You still need to check GCVWR but at least it gives you a starting point.
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Old 09-11-2016, 08:20 AM   #22
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I don’t know where you get a 10,000 lbs SRW truck mine on the scales is 8220 ready to camp with B&W hitch. Subtract that from 11,500 and you get 3280 left over for pin weight. A 10,000 lbs 5er at a high 25% pin weight would only be 2500 lbs pin that would still give me a 720 lbs margin.

First GCWR is 23,500 and subtract 8220 give me a towing capacity of 15280 and my 5er weighs in at 14,100 with combine weight of 22,300.

My GCWR is 11,500 and my axles are 4880 and 6480 for a total of 11,340. Close but not over and the 3711FL 80% of the storage is over or aft of the axles. Adding weight doesn’t add to pin weight. The more shoes my wife stacks in the bedroom the lighter the pin gets.

GAWR is 7,000 and my axle is 6460 which give me 540 lbs margin.

This is a 39.5 foot RV so yes I have no room to upgrade by I would rather down grade to shorter RV then upgrade. The point is you don’t need at DRW for anything over 10,000 lbs. You can stubby pencil all you want and get the numbers to fit or not to fit but the real test is the CAT Scale. I guess we are just going to have to disagree!!!!!!
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Old 09-11-2016, 08:33 AM   #23
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Just to help us understand. Explain the reasons why a 3/4 ton pickup will work out for you but, not a 1 ton. Going back to your post saying a 1 ton will not work for us for several reasons. Not being picky but, that statement is interesting and you did not explain it.
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Old 09-11-2016, 09:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by CWSWine View Post
I donít know where you get a 10,000 lbs SRW truck mine on the scales is 8220 ready to camp with B&W hitch. Subtract that from 11,500 and you get 3280 left over for pin weight. A 10,000 lbs 5er at a high 25% pin weight would only be 2500 lbs pin that would still give me a 720 lbs margin.

First GCWR is 23,500 and subtract 8220 give me a towing capacity of 15280 and my 5er weighs in at 14,100 with combine weight of 22,300.

My GCWR is 11,500 and my axles are 4880 and 6480 for a total of 11,340. Close but not over and the 3711FL 80% of the storage is over or aft of the axles. Adding weight doesnít add to pin weight. The more shoes my wife stacks in the bedroom the lighter the pin gets.

GAWR is 7,000 and my axle is 6460 which give me 540 lbs margin.

This is a 39.5 foot RV so yes I have no room to upgrade by I would rather down grade to shorter RV then upgrade. The point is you donít need at DRW for anything over 10,000 lbs. You can stubby pencil all you want and get the numbers to fit or not to fit but the real test is the CAT Scale. I guess we are just going to have to disagree!!!!!!
Basically I add 1,500 to what ever the base weight is to cover everything we might carry in the truck including passengers, dogs, tool box and tools, hitch anything I add to the truck and maybe extended fuel tanks in the future. This gives me my calculated GVW. I could easily back that down to 1,000. So with a MegaCab that puts me at 10,000. Different truck configurations will change those number but you still have to start with GVW and the GVWR.

I've found that at least for the 1 ton trucks GCVWR normally doesn't enter into the equation but it can on the 3/4 ton trucks. The main controlling numbers is going to be GVWR-GVW which is going to give you the max pin weight you can pull. That times 5 gives you the max trailer weight for a 20% win weight. The last check is going to make sure you don't exceed your rear axel rating. The program I use checks it but it's still best to verify all weights on the scales.

This program I use is Changing Gear's Fifth Wheel Weight Calculator. That way I make sure I don't miss something.

Just for fun take all of the Ford numbers for your truck and see what the program tells you. You can find the Ford ratings by starting here then going to your year then to Supper Duty F-Series. It's always possible the program isn't doing it correctly.
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Old 09-11-2016, 02:14 PM   #25
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My truck with hitch and ready to go camping only weights 8220 not 10,000 lbs. Here is Change Gears with CAT scale weights from my truck and 5er.

http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-...ercentage=22.1

Might want to check this one because it almost on the money with most setup I have had.

http://towingplanner.com/
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Old 09-11-2016, 06:18 PM   #26
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Things I have learned from the weight police over the years;
A 3/4 ton truck with the camper package is fine for a popup if not heavily loaded
My F350 SWD is not capable of pulling my 11K 5er and a dually is required for everything over 2K
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Old 09-12-2016, 03:58 AM   #27
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Things I have learned from the weight police over the years;
A 3/4 ton truck with the camper package is fine for a popup if not heavily loaded
My F350 SWD is not capable of pulling my 11K 5er and a dually is required for everything over 2K

LOL, this is on every board, the only truck that can tow a 5'er is a dually.

However, I think with the size of the 5'ers, and height, a dually would do much better in towing a 5'er. Does one need one to tow a 5'er? No.

With the new tow ratings for all 3, at this point a 1 ton are the only ones with the payload to tow the 5'ers of today. The payloads have drastically dropped on the '16 models of all 3 makes
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Old 09-12-2016, 04:36 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by CaptnJohn View Post
Things I have learned from the weight police over the years;
A 3/4 ton truck with the camper package is fine for a popup if not heavily loaded
My F350 SWD is not capable of pulling my 11K 5er and a dually is required for everything over 2K
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Originally Posted by CaptnJohn View Post
The truck builders spec sheets are like those of trailer builders ~ light! The truck spec sheets are based on the minimum J2807 specs permit. Many options you want are not in those weights and your yellow sticker may be a shock unless you order a relatively bare vehicle. The same with camper builders. My pin was 310# heavier than published when picked up from the dealer prior to adding slide toppers, 2nd AC, 2nd battery or anything else, not even a can of soda. You will run out of payload before anything else. For just a few hundred more you can often get a 1 ton and have all numbers in spec with the exception of the heaviest 5ers or THs. I bought a 2016 F250 and traded 6 months and 8 days later for an F350 ~~~ all in the payload.
I don't consider myself the "weight police", maybe some do. My experience with the "weight Police" on this forum is that they give well thought out advice based on real world numbers and experiences. I had a 2500 that some said was more than capable of towing my 15k lb 5er, within a month of buying the 5er I was trading my 2500 in on a dually. I feel we all provide information in hopes of educating people before they spend money so they don't end up buying another new truck 6 months after they bought their current truck
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Old 09-12-2016, 05:29 AM   #29
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I don't consider myself the "weight police", maybe some do. My experience with the "weight Police" on this forum is that they give well thought out advice based on real world numbers and experiences. I had a 2500 that some said was more than capable of towing my 15k lb 5er, within a month of buying the 5er I was trading my 2500 in on a dually. I feel we all provide information in hopes of educating people before they spend money so they don't end up buying another new truck 6 months after they bought their current truck
We've been planning to get thee RV for a while now. Originally a 5er then a MH but the DW had good arguments to go 5er. After really doing my homework and fully checking out specifications I just couldn't see getting anything other than a dually even though I rather not have a truck that wide.

Can you pull 10K 5er with a 3/4 ton? Yes but you're on the edge. Can you pull 10k with a 1 ton srw? Yes you can but without much room to move up. Can you pull a 24K with a srw? Well maybe but again why run on the edge.

The point is to do your homework by using the actual manufactures ratings and do the math using a good program that checks all the conditions. Don't depend on the door stickers CCC or "Max tow" ratings or what some salesman says.

One last point, I looked at both 4X2 and 4X4 drive and decided well go with a 4X4. So do you need a 4X4? Heck no but if I figured if you're ever going to boondock off paved roads I just can see doing that without 4X4. Heck, I may even put a winch on the truck
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Old 09-12-2016, 06:01 AM   #30
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Things I have learned from the weight police over the years;
A 3/4 ton truck with the camper package is fine for a popup if not heavily loaded
My F350 SWD is not capable of pulling my 11K 5er and a dually is required for everything over 2K
But on the other end some people think if you get level with air bags and getting rolling down the road you will be OK since there truck is something other than what says on the door jam.

It's all 5th grade math and not rocket science. You sure don't need a DRW to tow 10,000 lbs 5er but SRW have their limits. We have a local manufacture that if you have DRW F350/F3500 and you buy one of their 5ers you have to sign a release stating you are most likely over weight.

Right tool for the right job and the CAT scales is your friend. Stubby Pencil weights are Seldom Correct!!!

I tow 14,100 and within all my specs and not some stubby pencil weights but on the scale and average 10.5 MPG doing it.

Here is my numbers http://towingplanner.com/ActualWeigh...&w2da=3480&a=2

Safety is critical when towing an RV Trailer. This training video discusses the importance of understanding a Truck's ratings and how these ratings limit the size of the trailer that can be safely towed. You will be provided the tools and basic understanding needed to assist your endeavor to properly match a truck and trailer, so that you can enjoy RVing safely.

http://rvsafety.com/rv-education/mat...ks-to-trailers
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Old 09-12-2016, 01:15 PM   #31
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I had a 2500 that some said was more than capable of towing my 15k lb 5er, within a month of buying the 5er I was trading my 2500 in on a dually.
What kind of trouble were you having that made you go to a dually? I can see going to a dually if the weight is beyond a certain point, but I don't understand trading a 2500 SRW for a 3500 SRW when they are essentially the same truck and you're 200-300 lbs over on pin weight.
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Old 09-12-2016, 01:46 PM   #32
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What kind of trouble were you having that made you go to a dually? I can see going to a dually if the weight is beyond a certain point, but I don't understand trading a 2500 SRW for a 3500 SRW when they are essentially the same truck and you're 200-300 lbs over on pin weight.
In the situation you describe, it really boils down to whether you, your lawyer and your insurance agent all agree to "just ignore being overweight". Yes, the truck is "essentially" the same, or in the case of the F250/F350, "identical" with the exception of the overload springs (which are optional on the F250, and adding them makes it "identical"). Same truck, same part numbers, same "capacity" but very much "different" in weight limits for "registration and legal" purposes. It's only a matter of time before the state vehicle DOT and registration departments realize the amount of money they can make by enforcing "yellow sticker weight limits", and at that time, all this discussion will pretty much be "talking to the wall"...

To each their own. Few, if anybody here is going to go out and spend money based on someone else's perspective, so if you're happy, hit the road and don't look back, after all, nearly every RV salesman will support your decision to buy even bigger.
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Old 09-12-2016, 02:08 PM   #33
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I have a TT so I don't really have a dog in the fight. I just wonder if there's any real mechanical differences between the 2500 and the 3500 other than the rear springs that causes the mfg to rate the payload differently. Are we really talking about lawyers, fine, and form rather than real substance and safety when comparing the two with srw?
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Old 09-12-2016, 02:24 PM   #34
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I have a TT so I don't really have a dog in the fight. I just wonder if there's any real mechanical differences between the 2500 and the 3500 other than the rear springs that causes the mfg to rate the payload differently. Are we really talking about lawyers, fine, and form rather than real substance and safety when comparing the two with srw?


The reason for the rated payload differences is due to the 10,000 cap for the 3/4-ton. This keeps it a class 2 truck. 10,001 is a class 3 truck.

Some trucks may be different and some aren't. I think Ford got tired of making two trucks, so they finally decided to crank out the same truck and just rate them differently and put different badges on them. My research is with Fords. Other manufacturers might do the same, but I don't know.

A 10,000 GVWR has certain ramifications across registration, licensing, CDL, etc. For some it may not matter; to others it might. This is why they do it.

For personal RV use, I probably doesn't have any positives.


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Old 09-12-2016, 02:29 PM   #35
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I have a TT so I don't really have a dog in the fight. I just wonder if there's any real mechanical differences between the 2500 and the 3500 other than the rear springs that causes the mfg to rate the payload differently. Are we really talking about lawyers, fine, and form rather than real substance and safety when comparing the two with srw?
It's the government that causes the manufacture's to rate the trucks differently. An when you figure out why the government does what it does and if it makes any sense you come back and report your findings.
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Old 09-12-2016, 02:31 PM   #36
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The reason for the rated payload differences is due to the 10,000 cap for the 3/4-ton. This keeps it a class 2 truck. 10,001 is a class 3 truck.

Some trucks may be different and some aren't. I think Ford got tired of making two trucks, so they finally decided to crank out the same truck and just rate them differently and put different badges on them. My research is with Fords. Other manufacturers might do the same, but I don't know.

A 10,000 GVWR has certain ramifications across registration, licensing, CDL, etc. For some it may not matter; to others it might. This is why they do it.

For personal RV use, I probably doesn't have any positives.


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That comment has never made sense to me since a 3500 with GVW of 10,000 is a class 2 truck just like the 1/2 and 3/4 ton so what need for 3/4 ton trucks. A 3500 with over 10,000 is a class 3 truck.

http://changingears.com/rv-sec-tow-v...-classes.shtml
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Old 09-12-2016, 02:51 PM   #37
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This is SO interesting! I've got to make me another bag of popcorn!
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Old 09-12-2016, 03:11 PM   #38
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That comment has never made sense to me since a 3500 with GVW of 10,000 is a class 2 truck just like the 1/2 and 3/4 ton so what need for 3/4 ton trucks. A 3500 with over 10,000 is a class 3 truck.



http://changingears.com/rv-sec-tow-v...-classes.shtml


<sigh>...

Yes, 1-tons can also be configured with a 10,000 GVWR... which means they too are class 2.

Like I said: 10,000 and below is class 2; 10,001 and above is class 3 (until you get over another threshold).

I thought I provided enough for you to infer, but I guess I was wrong.

I don't know why anyone would want a class 2 1-ton.


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Old 09-12-2016, 03:50 PM   #39
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<sigh>...

Yes, 1-tons can also be configured with a 10,000 GVWR... which means they too are class 2.

Like I said: 10,000 and below is class 2; 10,001 and above is class 3 (until you get over another threshold).

I thought I provided enough for you to infer, but I guess I was wrong.

I don't know why anyone would want a class 2 1-ton.



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Like you said...
"A 10,000 GVWR has certain ramifications across registration, licensing, CDL, etc. For some it may not matter; to others it might. This is why they do it."

SRW and DRW Class 3 trucks can have GVWR up 14,000. Why is Ram the only one going over the SRW GVWR 11,500? Seems if it was safe Ford and GM would be increasing there GVWR to be "Best In Class Payload" and bragging rights. Hmmm......
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Old 09-12-2016, 04:38 PM   #40
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What kind of trouble were you having that made you go to a dually? I can see going to a dually if the weight is beyond a certain point, but I don't understand trading a 2500 SRW for a 3500 SRW when they are essentially the same truck and you're 200-300 lbs over on pin weight.
I could feel the truck was on it's edge for safety. I had a tail wagging the dog feeling. I've pulled a lot of trailers over the years, race car, utility, RV, farming equipment, etc...I had the feeling, especially on certain roads that my 2500 just wasn't safe. Too much pin weight, too light on the steering axle, too much sidewall flex in the tires. I've been in an emergency braking situation with a 5er before, I did not want to be in that situation with this one hooked to a 2500. Yes I have my trailer breaks set to pull harder than the truck, but if they ever failed I didn't want that trailer behind my 2500 or even a SRW 3500. I've also seen too many trailers turned over due to wind or a blow out or whatever, with the 2500 on edge, that situation is much more likely than it is with my dually.
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