Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Tech Forums > Technical Corner
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-07-2016, 09:29 AM   #21
Outback 325BH
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Highland, IL
Posts: 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyseas View Post
For the purpose of clarification, I am retired and was a state-licensed electrical contractor. For those wanting additional information, look up "subpanel" in the NEC (National Electric Code). In the case of a camper, I consider the camper's breaker panel (say 30 amp) a subpanel of the campground pedestal panel. The camper's breaker panel is a subpanel because the wiring to it includes concealed (in-wall) wiring within the camper structure that is inaccessible by the occupant. Therefore, the NEC requires that the wiring between a main panel (campground pedestal) and a subpanel (camper breaker panel) be rated to carry the amperage of the main panel's breaker. So if your camper is built for 30 amps, its internal wiring to its panel is only rated for 30 amps (not 50 amps). So the issue at hand are not the circuits protected by the 30 amp camper panel, it is a short or other wiring issue (loose connections being a common one) in the internal concealed wiring prior to the camper's panel.


It doesn't matter that you have a 30 amp cord plugged into a 50 pedestal (via the proper cord adapter) going into a 30 amp coach... because the main breaker in the coach will prevent a draw of more than 30 amps.

If you are concerned about a short in the cordset between the 50 amp pedestal breaker and the coach's 30 amp breaker, that is somewhat valid... but a non-issue in real-life. The only load that would occur there would be from a dead-short in a damaged cord. In that case, the 50 amp breaker in the pedestal would still trip.

You do realize that 30-50 cord adapters have been around for a LONG time and in use by a ton of campers. This is such a non-issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Outback 325BH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 09:41 AM   #22
Hyseas
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Winchester, VA
Posts: 8
"This is such a non-issue." Right, tell that to the camper I repaired where the wiring burned up at the cord-to-NM junction. Thankfully it was in a metal enclosure, so the fire was limited to all the wiring within the box. I suggest you read specifically Article 551 of the NEC that addresses RVs and prohibits the use of 30 amp RV services on anything greater than 30 amp pedestal receptacles. Furthermore, that article specifies the type plug to be used so that it cannot be plugged directly into a higher amperage supply. So readers beware - I'm speaking of facts, not observations or opinions.
Hyseas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 11:40 AM   #23
SummitPond
Senior Member
 
SummitPond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Northeast Florida/Southeast Maine
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyseas View Post
I suggest you read specifically Article 551 of the NEC that addresses RVs and prohibits the use of 30 amp RV services on anything greater than 30 amp pedestal receptacles.
Here's a link to the referenced NEC (I could only find a draft 2014, not an approved one):
https://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/Ab...3-ROPDraft.pdf

Article 551 starts on page 519.

I find it interesting to note that 551.71 (dealing with the types of receptacles available at RV parks) bears no resemblance to what I've observed at many places I have stayed in my travels.
__________________

Now: 2019 Winnebago 2500FL w/e2 WDH;Sold: 2015 Bullet Premier 19FBPR (shown)
2012 Ford F-250 Lariat Super Duty Crew Cab (gas 6.2 L, 3.73 gear ratio 2WD, 172" WB)
SummitPond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 01:49 PM   #24
Outback 325BH
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Highland, IL
Posts: 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShacterShack View Post
Here's a link to the referenced NEC (I could only find a draft 2014, not an approved one):

https://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/Ab...3-ROPDraft.pdf



Article 551 starts on page 519.



I find it interesting to note that 551.71 (dealing with the types of receptacles available at RV parks) bears no resemblance to what I've observed at many places I have stayed in my travels.


<sigh>

Nobody cares about your NEC references.

Conversion cords are safe and are WIDELY used by most everyone some time or another.

The "fire" you cite was not caused by a properly functioning conversion cord. Something else was amiss and would have happened without the conversion cord. If there was a short or arc that caused a fire, the same thing would have occurred with a 50 amp cordset. If a breaker didn't trip to protect everything, there was some loose connection or broken conductors arcing. Again, nothing a bigger wire would have prevented.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Outback 325BH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 01:57 PM   #25
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 25,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyseas View Post
"This is such a non-issue." Right, tell that to the camper I repaired where the wiring burned up at the cord-to-NM junction. Thankfully it was in a metal enclosure, so the fire was limited to all the wiring within the box. I suggest you read specifically Article 551 of the NEC that addresses RVs and prohibits the use of 30 amp RV services on anything greater than 30 amp pedestal receptacles. Furthermore, that article specifies the type plug to be used so that it cannot be plugged directly into a higher amperage supply. So readers beware - I'm speaking of facts, not observations or opinions.
In the past couple of years I've been to a large number of RV parks that only have 50 amp service at the site pedestal. Most of them have "loaner adapters" so people with a 30 amp trailer service can connect to the campground service. This past summer, we stayed in several campgrounds that simply don't have any 30 amp sites at all. Are you saying that these campgrounds don't meet NEC requirements for safe camping?
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 02:14 PM   #26
CWSWine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Kansas
Posts: 308
I have seen several of those lately and they are usually the newer parks. I have seen some of the older smaller parks only have 30 amp connects and no 50 amp.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
In the past couple of years I've been to a large number of RV parks that only have 50 amp service at the site pedestal. Most of them have "loaner adapters" so people with a 30 amp trailer service can connect to the campground service. This past summer, we stayed in several campgrounds that simply don't have any 30 amp sites at all. Are you saying that these campgrounds don't meet NEC requirements for safe camping?
__________________
Current
2017 Fleetwood Discovery 40D Class A Diesel Pusher
Past
2016 GMC Denila 1 ton Diesel CC 3722
2017 Grand Design Solitude 310GK-R
Montana 3711FL Front Living Room 5er
CWSWine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2016, 08:19 AM   #27
plutz3
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: gloucester
Posts: 5


this series really helped me
plutz3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 05:13 AM   #28
ctbruce
Site Team | Emeritus
 
ctbruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by plutz3 View Post


this series really helped me
That's pretty clear and easy to follow. Great help! Are there more from this guy?

Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Fuzion Impact 312
2015 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ
WELL....THAT WAS FUN!
__________________

Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Impact 312
2017 Silverado 3500HD SRW
ctbruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 07:56 AM   #29
hankaye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arrey,
Posts: 2,365
Howdy All;

I get the weekly RV Newsletter and within it there are a series of articles by
a guy named Mike Sokol. He's written a series of 12 articles about the "No
Shock Zone" and he also covers a lot of other useful info. Here's a link;
http://rvtravel.com/category/rv-livi...-power/page/2/

On pg.1 there is an article from Gary Bunzer about just this same topic ...

hankaye
__________________
Striving for a less complicated life since 1949 ...

Home: 2008 Cougar 278 RKS
T.V.: 2004 F-250 4X4, Level III BulletProofed , Detroit Tru-Track Differential (915A550)
Dog: 2006 Border Collie (Rascal) aka Maximum fur dispersal unit. (08/04/2006 - 12/16/2017) RIP.
hankaye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 12:38 PM   #30
Sherwood
Senior Member
 
Sherwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Grass Lake
Posts: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyseas View Post
"This is such a non-issue." Right, tell that to the camper I repaired where the wiring burned up at the cord-to-NM junction. Thankfully it was in a metal enclosure, so the fire was limited to all the wiring within the box. I suggest you read specifically Article 551 of the NEC that addresses RVs and prohibits the use of 30 amp RV services on anything greater than 30 amp pedestal receptacles. Furthermore, that article specifies the type plug to be used so that it cannot be plugged directly into a higher amperage supply. So readers beware - I'm speaking of facts, not observations or opinions.
I am also an electrician and have read article 551 several times and nowhere does it prohibit plugging a 30 amp camper into a 50 amp service at the pedestal. Can you please copy and paste what you read? As previous posters have stated, the RV main breaker will limit the rated cord set to its 30 amp capacity. Nothing else can cause more than 30 amps on that cord unless tampered with as the cords for our campers are meant to only serve the camper and nothing else. Can you explain how the manufacturers were able to market these adapters if they cause fires like you claim?
As far as the wires burning up in the metal junction box, I would say its because of bad connections causing arcing and then carbon buildup on conductors which causes more resistance thus causes conductors to get excessively hot and then burning of insulation at the joints and in junction box. If it was an over-current condition on the wires, you would see degradation or evidence of melting of the insulation on the wires outside of the junction box. Since it was only within the junction box, it tells me the problem was with the connections. Without seeing the whole thing, one cant be for sure. But one thing I am sure of is that the use of "dog bones" are legal and safe if used as directed and not tampered with.
__________________

Eric & Kim Sherwood
2011 Cougar 31SQB Travel Trailer, EZ-Flex
2004 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Crew Cab 6.0L
Reese Straight Line Trunnion Bar w/Dual Cam Anti-Sway
Sherwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 03:48 PM   #31
notanlines
Senior Member
 
notanlines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germantown, TN
Posts: 5,993
Mark my word, the legal department of Camco and Voltec would insure that the company didn't produce and sell these if they weren't safe. They are very common all across the country, virtually at all major RV parks.
__________________
Jim in Memphis, Wife of 51 years is Brenda
2019 F450 6.7 Powerstroke
2018 Mobile Suites 40RSSA
2021 40' Jayco Eagle
2001 Road king w/matching Harley sidecar
2021 Yamaha X2 Wolverine 1000
notanlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 05:29 PM   #32
Outback 325BH
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Highland, IL
Posts: 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
I am also an electrician and have read article 551 several times and nowhere does it prohibit plugging a 30 amp camper into a 50 amp service at the pedestal. Can you please copy and paste what you read? As previous posters have stated, the RV main breaker will limit the rated cord set to its 30 amp capacity. Nothing else can cause more than 30 amps on that cord unless tampered with as the cords for our campers are meant to only serve the camper and nothing else. Can you explain how the manufacturers were able to market these adapters if they cause fires like you claim?

As far as the wires burning up in the metal junction box, I would say its because of bad connections causing arcing and then carbon buildup on conductors which causes more resistance thus causes conductors to get excessively hot and then burning of insulation at the joints and in junction box. If it was an over-current condition on the wires, you would see degradation or evidence of melting of the insulation on the wires outside of the junction box. Since it was only within the junction box, it tells me the problem was with the connections. Without seeing the whole thing, one cant be for sure. But one thing I am sure of is that the use of "dog bones" are legal and safe if used as directed and not tampered with.


^^ This.

The 30 amp camper can't draw more than 30 amps. It's main breaker will not allow it.

In the case of a short in the cord, the 50 amp breaker in the pedestal will trip... even with a 10 gauge "30 amp" cord.

If loose connections arc and cause a fire??? The 6 gauge "50 amp" cord would not prevent it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Outback 325BH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 06:38 PM   #33
Sherwood
Senior Member
 
Sherwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Grass Lake
Posts: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outback 325BH View Post
^^ This.

The 30 amp camper can't draw more than 30 amps. It's main breaker will not allow it.

In the case of a short in the cord, the 50 amp breaker in the pedestal will trip... even with a 10 gauge "30 amp" cord.

If loose connections arc and cause a fire??? The 6 gauge "50 amp" cord would not prevent it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is what I was trying to say but shorter. Only thing that can help prevent fires from arcing is arc-fault circuit breakers. And from what I read, they are not required in RV's or at the pedestal as of the latest code update. Bottom line, the use of the 50 to 30 or 30 to 50 adapters are perfectly fine and safe to use.
__________________

Eric & Kim Sherwood
2011 Cougar 31SQB Travel Trailer, EZ-Flex
2004 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Crew Cab 6.0L
Reese Straight Line Trunnion Bar w/Dual Cam Anti-Sway
Sherwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RVģ is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.