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Old 06-29-2016, 06:18 AM   #1
bull
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: calgary
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Front filon falling apart

2009 Sprinter 264 bhs I know its off warranty but you would think the front with 2 coats of wax year wouldn't be falling apart after 7 yrs.

I called my dealer that we purchased it new from and they weren't interested in helping. They said from past dealing with Keystone they found the customers had better luck getting stuff covered than they did.

Its not our first rv and never had any problems with filon before with 2 wax jobs a year. I know they had bad glue and decals around 2008 but I was assured my trailer wasn't part of that. I sent Keystone tons of pics roof, sides etc and front like they requested. It took them weeks with many friendly reminders to please reply. This is what I got


My service team has reviewed the photos you supplied thoroughly. At this time we are unable to determine if the delamination you are experiencing is from water intrusion, or it could be a natural material break down. The photos you provided do not provide a clear answer as to what has happened here. Typically with water intrusion you will see water trails leading to the pocket, or bulge. There is no visible water trail that we can see in the photos provided. It is possible the delamination is from material break down over time. If there is a concern that the unit may have experienced water intrusion it would be best to have the unit inspected by an authorized facility.

The delamination you are experiencing is not the result of a manufacturing defect.


Thank you,

Amy Baumgardner


They won't even over reply to me anymore when I asked if its not water but possibly break down of material over 7 yr how is that not a manufacturing defect.

I have had one quote so far for repair its going to be $1800 plus cost of decals depending what they find behind the filon. Not a lot of places interested in taking on the job.


I just emailed my dealer yesterday and let them know the out come with Keystone and maybe they would want to see some pics since their name was all over my falling apart rv. Apparently they sell lots of Keystone product and "normally Keystone responds to things like this pretty well so please send me some pics ". Wait and see I guess I don't expect much from the dealer.
Thanks for allowing me to vent
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Old 06-29-2016, 11:57 AM   #2
dcg9381
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So Keystone said:
1) It could be water, unable to determine
2) It could be the materials that we used, unable to determine
3) It's not due to our assembly

7-years is a pretty short lifetime. If it's a material problem, I'll bet that 7-years is well inside of a "reasonable" lifetime.

There's an interesting post here that looks an awful lot like your case + other discussions indicating issues with Filon out of Keystone:
http://www.outbackers.com/forums/ind...howtopic=17153
http://www.outbackers.com/forums/ind...howtopic=28964
https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...print/true.cfm
https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...print/true.cfm


And here is a shop that seems to know something about it - and seems to be able to make parts to repair it.
http://www.hemetvalleyrv.net/delamin...trailer-blues/
Quote:
If you own a Filon trailer, have you ever wondered why your front wall has “fallen apart” and not your side or back walls? Filon trailers tend to have delamination issues. This is due to the difference between Luan and Unicore. The front wall is Unicore and the rest is Luan. Put it this way: it is the difference between cardboard and wood.

Practical suggestions:
1) You might see what an insurance adjuster says - that crinkling sure seems like a "material" problem to me, but what do I know. Often the adjuster will come back with a written indication of manufacturing or material problem, which will give you a little more ammo with Keystone.
2) I'd ask my dealer (someone impartial and that has a relationship with Keystone) to probe the front panel with a moisture meter. The panel is toast anyway. If the sub-structure is dry, then it's likely an adhesive issue. The choice of adhesive is a construction issue.


There are indications that this can be caused by simple condensation due to temperature changes and is aggravated by the use of RV covers.
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Old 06-29-2016, 02:14 PM   #3
bull
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Thanks dcg9381 for all the information.

I never thought to maybe call the insurance company. Just waiting to see if the dealer changed their mind and are interested in helping. Moisture meter is a good call as black mold is the last thing I want growing in my rv. Trying to get some more quotes to fix it but not finding a lot of choices up here in Canada around where we live.
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Old 06-29-2016, 08:01 PM   #4
Ken / Claudia
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I believe the bottom line about this is you need tear it apart. Or pay to do it. To see what is really happening, water or glue problems. If water no RV co. would pay for a repair 6 years past warranty. If glue problem submit proof, likely thru a dealer or the dealer you purchased from. Maybe Keystone will cover it, maybe not. Until than no way.
I had a front delamb from water on another brand RV appeared at year 4 or a 1 year warranty. I drove it to the factory because they said if a glue problem or other that they caused they would pay. Water I would pay and I did 1200. There was no outside or inside of RV that showed water had leaked into the RV. Only at the place in went in, seam at front/roof and inside of wall.
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Old 06-30-2016, 07:56 AM   #5
dcg9381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia View Post
...no RV co. would pay for a repair 6 years past warranty.
I'd qualify that. No RV company would willingly pay for a repair 5 years past warranty. Lots of them have, however, when the parts of materials that they were using caused a big issue that impacted value at no fault of the consumer. The "crows feet" issues of the diesel pushers around 2005 vintage come to mind.

When did this start showing up?

Unless you're going to just dump it, it appears to be repairable (at least on your dime). I'd talk to that company that I listed above, likely they know much more about this issue than I learned via google. I'd be building written documentation - via insurance claim, I'd find a shop that can replace that wall (if provided the parts) and as part of the tear-down (or exploration) document the moisture issue. Take that information back to Keystone and your dealer. You want to show that it's not water and that it is due to materials. You want it in writing. It's important to document that your seals are fine and there is no water intrusion... (I'm assuming that's the case).

From there, assuming you are rejected, PM me and I'll give you the name of someone who may be able to help. The issue here is a violation of UCC (Universal Commercial Code), which has nothing to do with warranty:


Snips, edits, but the main bits are:
Quote:
In all sales of goods, unless expressly excluded, the seller warrants to the buyer that the goods are merchantable.....This means that the goods: (1) would pass without objection in the trade under the contract description; (2) are of fair, average quality within the description; (3) are fit for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are used; (4) are of even kind, quality and quantity within each unit or lot and among all units or lots involved;

I'd also ask around on the Outback forum - this seems to be a really common problem with on those Keystone trailers... At least going a few years back.
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Old 06-30-2016, 09:29 AM   #6
bull
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We just noticed it this year when I went to get the rv out of storage for our first trip of the year. I had removed what was left of a big round decal around the Sprinter decal on the front and gave it a good coat of wax before winter storage last year. That one decal and some on the one side look like crap despite waxing and using 303 protectant. Everything looked fine under the decal other than it was more white than the rest of front. You can see in the pic below all the fine cracks that appeared over winter this year under where the decal was. If some moisture got in I think that's where it might have been possible.

When you spend over $32,000 I like to think things should last a little longer than 7 years. Out of all of our rv friends I'm the only anal one when it comes to maintenance too. Always washing, waxing, wheel bearings, slide lube, lube for seals, check roof, silicon and etc. Makes me frustrated as I spend all the extra time on maintenance but I have the problems. Maybe too much wax!!!! lol

It's totally repairable we just can't afford to right now on our dime. I had to stop working over 2 yrs ago due to a medical condition and hoping to get back to work soon. I have a call into a 3m vinyl wrap company for cost and if its possible to wrap filon. So we may just get the inside wall tested for moisture and if its good we will just 3m white vinyl wrap the front to stop the moisture from getting in those cracks if the cost isn't too much. Then wait and see if anymore bulges appear and then eventually get it fixed right when we can afford it.
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Old 06-30-2016, 06:37 PM   #7
Ken / Claudia
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Again if it is from water Do not over look the fact that the seam from top to front can leak so can the clearance lights and side to front seams. You likely will never see whose leaks from looking at the outside. Again mine was not visible until taken apart. I guessed it leaked thru the seam around a window. My guess was wrong.
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Old 07-01-2016, 05:49 AM   #8
bull
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Finding a water leak can definitely be hard to track. We had one on our house during heavy rains that would soak the carpet years ago by the window on the main floor. Took forever to find it and it wasn't where I thought it would be. Water was getting in behind the siding on the second floor and running down to the main floor.

Pulling the front off and looking for water stains behind it is going to be the only way to determine if its water and where it got in. The delam or bulge is in the middle of the trailer which I agree with Keystone that there is no typical water delam trail to the bulge.

Most of the delams I have seen online start near the roof seem, sides or the clearance lights and spread. Mine is almost in the middle of the trailer but then again water is tricky!
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