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Old 10-14-2017, 04:52 PM   #41
sourdough
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I know this is contrary to the thinking of many but it, in my mind, makes sense.

The going theory is that you need to have tires able to support the weight of the trailer minus the tongue/pin weight. I disagree with that. I go with the gvw. Why?

Sitting on flat ground the tires ARE only supporting the trailer less the tongue/pin, but in actual driving those numbers are all over the place. I don't recall driving on lots of perfectly level highways; particularly without humps, bumps, undulations etc. Heck, some of I20 in LA and MS will have your truck/trailer somersaulting if you're not careful. In that instance, when the tail of the truck is up in the air along with the front of the trailer, just about the entire weight of the trailer, plus momentum is pushing on those tires. If they are rated to carry less than the weight of the trailer you're just asking for a problem IMO. And this is happening constantly on the road, so, I just look at the gvw and give myself cushion from there. I'm sure some disagree but I am convinced that is the reason so many OEM tires decide to blow - they were undersized in the first place. JMO - YMMV

I meant to clarify in the above post that I'm talking more about bumper pull trailers vs 5th wheels. 5th wheels, simply by their construction and method of connecting to the truck mitigate some of the extreme issues I alluded to. I do think it's better to have substantially more capability in the tires than the gvw no matter what but it's not as important with a 5th wheel IMO - if that makes sense.
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Old 10-14-2017, 10:11 PM   #42
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I agree with what John and Sourdough mention. Think about this, I have but, do not know of any way to measure it. Your traveling at 60 mph. When the vehicle goes over a bump weight comes off the tire as the vehicle lifts, when the vehicle comes down how much more weight is pressed into that tire as it compresses. Apply that to tires barely able to support the trailer to start with, apply that to thousands of miles and thousands of bumps.
But, bottom line, all tires fail, I know I deal with them on the freeways. Are China made tires junk, maybe. But, you need to know why they fail and few want to find out.
If I told you it was unsafe to drive on freeways due to the many crashes I investigated. Would you stop driving on freeways. Yes there was a crash but, there was also cause, what was the cause. The end result was a fender bent, was it a bad fender that caused it to get bent or was it due to the driver traveling too fast, following too close, etc etc. Sorry I am a investigator, I work hard to learn why xxx happened.
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Old 10-15-2017, 10:01 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I meant to clarify in the above post that I'm talking more about bumper pull trailers vs 5th wheels. 5th wheels, simply by their construction and method of connecting to the truck mitigate some of the extreme issues I alluded to. I do think it's better to have substantially more capability in the tires than the gvw no matter what but it's not as important with a 5th wheel IMO - if that makes sense.
I think theres something to that. Tire weight rating, Im sure, is a static load rating, but as tires age, folks load their trailers and over the road changing g loads impact the tires, there is probably a margin that is exceeded.

I might have to go to a LRF tire in the spring when the current tire age begins the fourth year.
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Old 11-23-2017, 10:18 AM   #44
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I'm strictly speculating here and I don't have any specific numbers/weights to go by, but let's look at the potential for problems with a 2013 Raptor 300 and LRE or LRF tires.

First, the trailer is 11985 pounds empty with a cargo capacity of 4515. That's a GVW of 16500. Assuming a pin weight of 20% (3300) that would leave the 80% (13200) on the axles. With 4 tires, that's 3300 pounds on each tire. Looking at the floorplan, on the curb side there is a refrigerator directly over the axles and immediately behind that is a washer/dryer space. I'd suppose (as I said in the first sentence) by speculating, that since you're full-timing, you have a washer/dryer?

Have you, by chance, spent the time to weigh each wheel independently? My guess is that with LRE (10 ply) tires in either 23580R16 (3520 rating) or 23585R16 (3640 rating) your Raptor may be overloaded on that side or on one of the tires on that side. That may be the reason you had such poor performance with the 10 ply tires and even why the LRF (12 ply) tires which are rated at 3960 @95PSI.

With a "calculated wheel load of 3300 pounds" and floorplan locations of extremely heavy components, it's not unreasonable to see 300+ pounds of difference in wheels on the same side and 600+ difference in the pair of wheels on one side compared to the other side of the trailer. Add travelling with a full fuel tank or a full fresh water tank or partially full holding tanks can even magnify that "load imbalance"....

I'm in no position (with the limited information presented) to know for sure what loading the tires experienced, but it seems to me that there's got to be a reason why two sets of 10 ply tires and a set of 12 ply tires all failed on a trailer. It's just not "fate" that caused the failures. If it were my trailer, I'd dig further into the problem and find "why" it happened.
Sorry it has taken so long to respond, I don't get notifications on my posts for some reason... If you have read my previous posts carefully you would have read that I have weighed my rig, not just the axles, but wheel by wheel and I am NOT overweight on either any of the tires or by axle. Because we are FT and I know things accumulate I have been getting my rig weighed by Escapees smartweigh at least twice a year. Surprisingly enough I am within 100lbs side to side, so asymmetry is pretty darn good on my rig! When we travel (with exception when traveling to a boondocking site), we travel with 5 gallons of fresh water (measured by water meter) and empty holding tanks. (When I weigh I usually have full fuel tanks and propane). I upgraded to a wet bolt kit when I purchased this TH so I wouldn't have issues that many have with shackles and bushings. I have had the alignment checked since the failures (by lazer) although with the suspension on my trailer if it were out, there are limited choices on getting it adjusted (Hence considering a MORrhyde IS 8K upgrade in the spring). It is too much of a pain in the hind end to post the pictures I took of the failed tires (they are somewhere on my phone) although at the tire shops they were too busy to really care about why they failed. Since the TPMS warned me in time to get pulled over before they overheated and blew I thought maybe they would care a little, but they didn't seem to. One split right down the middle of the tread face, another was failing right along the bead, the other failed along the sidewall (DT decided to replace the other 2 by good measure). Out of the three that had me pulled over, one was on the left front, one was on the right front, the other on right rear. I will say that DT is a stand up company and stood behind what they sold me, but with my experience I am not sold on the Carlisle Radial Trail HD's. Starting to look into upgrading to either a commercial grade 17.5" or a 19.5" tire wheel combination. If $ was no object I would upgrade both my TV and TH to a HDT and a DVR Fullhouse. Like I've said in an earlier post I've already put a lot of $$ in this rig so I'd rather do a few upgrades than purchase another one and have to put upgrades on it, not to mention I'm already maxing out the CGVWR on my RAM 3500 dually. Makes me wonder on those that are pulling the larger Raptors, the 300 mp is the smallest 5th wheel Raptor TH and I am pretty much maxed out from a legal standpoint with my 3500!
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Old 11-23-2017, 10:40 AM   #45
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Well the GCWR on my 15 Ram is 37,800...way more than your 08 so that's how I pull a heavy Raptor. So with that being said, its possible to upgrade to a newer truck to help on your combined weight. As for your tires, before spending money on more Carlisle tires, not that theres anything wrong with Carlisle tires but I would have went with an upgrade G rated tire and wheel to a set of Sailun tires with compatible wheels with a rating of #4080 each.
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Old 11-23-2017, 10:50 AM   #46
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DMK,

As I said at least two times in my post, I was speculating on what "MAY" have been a problem. If you've covered those things, then I don't have any other ideas for you to try toward a solution. I can't tell you why you're having such bad performance with Carlisle tires, but I'd suspect that you'll have the same performance with any brand of tire in a similar size/load range. You may be onto a solution by upgrading to a commercial tire. One alternative to 17.5" wheels is Sailun 14 ply 16" tires on wheels that are capable of supporting their 110 PSI inflation rating? Several members have reported excellent results with the Sailun. Otherwise, all I can do is wish you luck in finding out why you keep having tire problems.
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Old 11-23-2017, 10:56 AM   #47
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DMK, I realize that nearly everyone that has a tire blow never looks into how/why or asks a tire shop or the tire maker to look at it and tell what caused the failure. Did you attempt to find out? There may not have been anything left to look at but, just asking.
Late reply, just don't get on here much! Yes I actually did try to get them to really look them over and give me there thoughts. Having a TPMS allowed me to get stopped before severe overheating so you could really get a look at the tire, but out of the three different shops I was in they were only really concerned about getting me back on the road (not a bad thing) and said they would send the tires back to the manufacturer. Probably the smart play as they are not product engineers just installers!
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:29 AM   #48
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DMK,

As I said at least two times in my post, I was speculating on what "MAY" have been a problem. If you've covered those things, then I don't have any other ideas for you to try toward a solution. I can't tell you why you're having such bad performance with Carlisle tires, but I'd suspect that you'll have the same performance with any brand of tire in a similar size/load range. You may be onto a solution by upgrading to a commercial tire. One alternative to 17.5" wheels is Sailun 14 ply 16" tires on wheels that are capable of supporting their 110 PSI inflation rating? Several members have reported excellent results with the Sailun. Otherwise, all I can do is wish you luck in finding out why you keep having tire problems.
JRTJH, As you have read, I have been after the root cause and the answer! The reason for my post is to let others know who may not put on the number of miles that I do, that I have experienced problems with these tires, not by being overloaded, not by being over or under-inflated, or by speed of travel. I purchased the LRF tires in April to increase my safety margin over the LRE tires that I purchased only 10 months before that (only 60 days later a blow out and $1500 damage to my TH, before my TPMS purchase). By September and around 5,000 miles all the LRF tires were all replaced! To me that is pretty significant and needs to be mentioned to all those that think these tires are so great. So far the replacements have held up, but for how long?? The main reason I'm considering 17.5 or 19.5 wheel/tire combinations is the fact that statistically the 16's are prone to failure. One thing to be mentioned here is the size of the tires 225/70 R17.5 or 225/70 R19.5 are still the same total circumference as the 235/70 R16. There are many other pros for this switch but I won't go into them here. If you would like to learn more on this here is one source for 19.5. http://www.boarwheel.com/why-19-5/

Happy Thanksgiving All!
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:45 AM   #49
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Well the GCWR on my 15 Ram is 37,800...way more than your 08 so that's how I pull a heavy Raptor. So with that being said, its possible to upgrade to a newer truck to help on your combined weight. As for your tires, before spending money on more Carlisle tires, not that theres anything wrong with Carlisle tires but I would have went with an upgrade G rated tire and wheel to a set of Sailun tires with compatible wheels with a rating of #4080 each.
Tinner12002, True on the increased CGVWR on newer trucks, but personally I'd rather spend that $ on a singled HDT and have a little $ left over if I was going to make a switch (a debate for a different thread).

The LRF tires were a compromise with what my OEM rims are rated for. G rated tires were out of the question unless I wanted to buy wheels at that time. Still researching what I will be changing to, right now leaning towards either a 17.5 or 19.5 commercial grade wheel/tire upgrade. $ wise it's all pretty comparable by the time you buy wheels and tires.
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:58 AM   #50
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I agree with what John and Sourdough mention. Think about this, I have but, do not know of any way to measure it. Your traveling at 60 mph. When the vehicle goes over a bump weight comes off the tire as the vehicle lifts, when the vehicle comes down how much more weight is pressed into that tire as it compresses. Apply that to tires barely able to support the trailer to start with, apply that to thousands of miles and thousands of bumps.
But, bottom line, all tires fail, I know I deal with them on the freeways. Are China made tires junk, maybe. But, you need to know why they fail and few want to find out.
If I told you it was unsafe to drive on freeways due to the many crashes I investigated. Would you stop driving on freeways. Yes there was a crash but, there was also cause, what was the cause. The end result was a fender bent, was it a bad fender that caused it to get bent or was it due to the driver traveling too fast, following too close, etc etc. Sorry I am a investigator, I work hard to learn why xxx happened.
Ken, Many good points here and tires do fail from cumulative stresses over time. The infrastructure in this country is not in really great shape overall, this could be some of my trouble that I have been experiencing. RV's are the only vehicles that are at or near 100% capacity 100% of the time! What I will say about finding out the root cause of failure unless it is really obvious like road hazzard damage, it would be pretty hard to get from anyone but a product engineer. Unfortunately you won't find one at a tire shop on most days...
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Old 11-23-2017, 12:10 PM   #51
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DMK,

Good luck on which ever way you choose to go. Keep us posted on your decision and the success/failure of your choices. Inquiring minds want to know... Happy Thanksgiving, even if tires aren't on your list of things to be thankful for......
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Old 11-23-2017, 12:16 PM   #52
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DMK,

Good luck on which ever way you choose to go. Keep us posted on your decision and the success/failure of your choices. Inquiring minds want to know... Happy Thanksgiving, even if tires aren't on your list of things to be thankful for......
Will do! Thank you all for your input! Hope I didn't come off too strong on any of it, it can sure be frustrating!

Happy Thanksgiving!
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Old 04-21-2018, 06:47 PM   #53
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If you have Carlisel Radial Trail HD's take them off now!!!

*Update: After having all 5 tires replaced last fall, I had two more catastophic blowouts again the same day a couple of weeks ago. This time it did quite a bit of damage to the J-wrap and took out the DARCO in the wheel wells! Of course one on each side and after I had used my spare also had a coach-net call for help from the side of the Interstate! These Carlise Radial Trail HD's are junk!!! (Yes I have been weighed by smart weigh, use a Eez TPMS and do not drive over 65 mph!!). If you have them get rid of them tomorrow before they damage your rig! Discount Tire filed a damage claim on my behalf to Carlise. They also told me they are discontinuing this tire from stock from all the trouble others have had!

I have an appointment this next week at MORrhyde to upgrade to the 8K IS suspension/disc brakes and wheels & tires to the 235 70/ R17.5 G114 H rated and those damn Carlises couldn't get me there without failing and damaging my rig again!!! I am so ready to be over this junk!
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Old 04-21-2018, 09:49 PM   #54
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Ok, they are blowing up. What is the cause? What did the TPMS say before, loss of pressure, over heat, nothing? Your 1st post did not have any of that information either. Just you were warned.
I would have the tire co involved and make sure they get them for inspection, sounds like that may be getting done this time. The tire shop should have opinions after looking at them If they do not offer ASK them. I have had 2 blow outs my my truck and looked them over, my case was clear the rubber valve stems ripped out. I had several blow outs on patrol vehicles and each was easy to see why. Full metal valve stems are a must on a heavy vehicle.The tires were not the problem. On the patrol vehicles it was always road debris embedded into the tread. If you do not have metal valve stem get them now, buy them with new tires, 6 bucks each well spent. I am not a tire expert but by looking at the tire it will show reasons for the failure and tire shops at least the managers know what those look like.
Besides RVs trailers there are many other types, mainly work trucks driving around at full GVW every day. I know I weighed them.
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Old 04-21-2018, 10:27 PM   #55
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*Update: After having all 5 tires replaced last fall, I had two more catastophic blowouts again the same day a couple of weeks ago. This time it did quite a bit of damage to the J-wrap and took out the DARCO in the wheel wells! Of course one on each side and after I had used my spare also had a coach-net call for help from the side of the Interstate! These Carlise Radial Trail HD's are junk!!! (Yes I have been weighed by smart weigh, use a Eez TPMS and do not drive over 65 mph!!). If you have them get rid of them tomorrow before they damage your rig! Discount Tire filed a damage claim on my behalf to Carlise. They also told me they are discontinuing this tire from stock from all the trouble others have had!

I have an appointment this next week at MORrhyde to upgrade to the 8K IS suspension/disc brakes and wheels & tires to the 235 70/ R17.5 G114 H rated and those damn Carlises couldn't get me there without failing and damaging my rig again!!! I am so ready to be over this junk!
I’m not writing this in support of the Carlisle tires. It’s about the situation.

The fitment requirement for RV trailer axles requires the trailer manufacturer to use tires that supports its certified GAWRs. The actual statement in the standard says the trailer manufacturer gets to decide what’s appropriate and then certify that decision on the certification label. Guess who gets to set & certify those axles? You got it, the trailer manufacturer. Guess who’s the only one that can change those GAWRs once they’ve been certified? The vehicle manufacturer or a certified vehicle modifier.

So, in your case, your trailer has 7000# axles. Fitted with ST235/80R16E tires. At the recommended cold inflation pressure they only provide 20# of load capacity reserves per tire for a fully loaded axle. The standard RVIA recommendation is a reserve of 10%, or tires with at least 3872# of load capacity. That’s a ST235/85R16F or ST235/80R16G at full sidewall inflation pressures.

The results of documented studies for trailers like yours have shown that approximately 50% were found to have an axle over loaded or tires on it under inflated. Another study shows that there is a 60% chance that a single tire position is over loaded or under inflated. That is a very damaging condition for tires that are already at, or nearly at, their maximum load capacity when properly inflated. Tires in those conditions degrade rapidly and the condition is invisible until it starts to fail. The first visible sign will be tire growth or bubbles in the sidewall. When they start getting taller they are real close to throwing the tread.

Here is a picture of two like sized and designed tires. The taller one is in full tread separation.

http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=27625

Recommendations: Compare your OE tire load capacity to the certified GAWR. Normally going up a load range or two will insure a longer life expectancy from the replacements.
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Old 04-22-2018, 03:45 AM   #56
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*Update: After having all 5 tires replaced last fall, I had two more catastophic blowouts again the same day a couple of weeks ago. This time it did quite a bit of damage to the J-wrap and took out the DARCO in the wheel wells! Of course one on each side and after I had used my spare also had a coach-net call for help from the side of the Interstate! These Carlise Radial Trail HD's are junk!!! (Yes I have been weighed by smart weigh, use a Eez TPMS and do not drive over 65 mph!!). If you have them get rid of them tomorrow before they damage your rig! Discount Tire filed a damage claim on my behalf to Carlise. They also told me they are discontinuing this tire from stock from all the trouble others have had!

I have an appointment this next week at MORrhyde to upgrade to the 8K IS suspension/disc brakes and wheels & tires to the 235 70/ R17.5 G114 H rated and those damn Carlises couldn't get me there without failing and damaging my rig again!!! I am so ready to be over this junk!
David, so sorry to hear of your troubles. That really sucks.

Is this a second series of Carlisle blow outs for you? In an older post, you replaced Trailer Kings to Carlisles in August of 2015. Having it happen once is bad. Twice would be devastating.

A lot of us run Carlisles, me included and will be curious about your issues. Do you know what the manufacture date is on the tires that blew? This information will surely help others out. Thanks for sharing your update.
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Old 08-27-2018, 09:35 AM   #57
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I don't get on here much and I do not get notifications to responses on this post so I am seeing the April responses today!

First to Ken/Claudia, no warning from TPMS until rapid pressure loss, no spike in temp or big change on pressure.

To CWtheMan, I am very meticulous about how my rig is loaded and at least once a year have been using smartweigh to get a wheel by wheel measurment with full fuel tanks, full fresh water, etc to have the worst case loading senario when weighed. I don't have the numbers handy as they are in the glove box of my RAM pickup at my in-laws. But I was not over, but was at maximum on nearly every category. We are full-timers so not hard to do. Since the last smartweigh I have switched over to an HDT as my TV and have transfered a lot of weight (mainly tools) over to the truck so those numbers should have improved a lot. I am planning on another visit to smartweigh when I get back out to the SW this winter.

To ctbruce, I will have to look back through archived pictures I know that I dd take pictures of all the DOT #'s.

Since my last post in April after my 8k IS upgrade and upgrade to GY 114 17.5 tires & wheels I have had no issues with any tires and have put on close to 15k. it was a lot of $, but so worth not having anymore tire issues, having a little more safety margin even though it's not official according to the sticker on the trailer. The suspension also is align-able so that will also be a nice benefactor down the road...
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Old 08-27-2018, 09:56 AM   #58
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Other than Discount Tires warranty, and tire pricing, mounting and balancing a tire
is not that difficult. I'd let most any tire shop do the work for me.
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2017 Outback 330RL 15th Anniversary Edition (stationary full timer)
2006 GMC 2500HD Duramax CC 4x4 w/SunLite pop-up camper
Dust Junkies Racing, 3 time Baja 1000 Class Champions
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