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Old 04-02-2016, 04:25 PM   #1
Wildhorse
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Current Draws Raptor 2016 355TS

Here is some more general information that I have been unable to find by searching the forum, and thought it might help others as well. I have been identifying and isolating parasitic drains as well as measuring the draws from the various circuits in my trailer to make up a laminated card to be stored in the camper. Most of what I have found online is regarding isolating the batteries for storage, but not cutting down on the drains while boondocking as well. In addition to a battery isolator to kill everything during storage I have put in a switch so that the backup cameras can be turned off when camping. As wired from the factory they are drawing current if the battery isolator switch in closed and the camper is live. Also drawing all the time is the soundbar. I've installed a switch so that I can kill power to it instead of leaving it in STBY. Also noteworthy is the tiny microswitch that powers the TV antenna amplifier. If this is left on the draw is significant, but it is hidden behind the TV. Out of sight out of mind but draining the batteries just the same. I haven't covered everything yet, so I'll add as I nail down the current draws on the rest of the circuits. I got hot today and quit. LOL

Here's what I'll call for lack of a better name the Static State of my Raptor. In the static state the batteries are connected, the refrigerator is on propane and drawing DC to run the control module and fans, and the Jenson control module for the trailer systems is powered on. At this point the trailer is AS Shipped from Keystone. and sitting idle if you will as if camping but not using anything or nobody is at home if you will. In this condition the current draw is 1.59 amps.

By turning off the switches that I installed for the cameras and the soundbar the Static State drops to 1 amp. This is about the best it is going to get while boondocking without killing the carbon monoxide detector and smoke detector.

Draws from circuits...
Soundbar on STBY = .46 amps
Cameras = .13 amps
Hall light switch 1 = .22 amps (light above stairs to bedroom)
Hall light switch 2 = 3.23 amps (Pendent lights over island)

Controlled on Jenson Control Module:
Night lights = 1.1 amps
Main Living lights = 1.47 amps
Indirect lights = 2.34 amps
Light Group 4 = 1.51 amps
Awning Light = 3.37 amps


Front bath:
Fan = 1.9 amps
light = .96 amps

Bedroom lights = 1.32 amps
Bedroom reading lights (both on) = .96 amps

TV Antenna Amp = .4 amps
Pantry light = .4 amps

Again this is a work in progress and there is lots more to check such as the heater, porch lights, garage area, Blue LED lights on front cap, hitch light, etc.
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Old 07-01-2016, 04:51 PM   #2
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Also check your generator primer button. When I disconnect the battery switch my generator fuel pump goes into prime mode. Take the cover off the genset and when you switch the disconnect switch the fuel pump and primer light will come on. Checked my buddies and his does the same thing. We both have the same 2016 355TS as you.
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Old 07-04-2016, 02:47 PM   #3
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Thanks, Wildhorse. Another 355TS here and I appreciate the info. Good stuff!
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:59 PM   #4
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Update on current draws

I finally got around to installing an inverter last week and decided to update this. FWIW I installed a GoPower 3,000 pure sine inverter and added a second transfer switch to make the installation clean. Behind the distribution / breaker panel in the pantry there was room for the transfer switch which made the job less burdensome than I anticipated. I used a 50 amp GoPower transfer switch.

Here are some additional draws that I didn't get into originally. Some didn't matter prior to trying to run AC appliances on the inverter. Regardless it's eye opening.

In Command Controller .65 DC amps
Thermostat / AC-Heater control pad .28 DC amps

Updated Fridge draw: 1.35 DC amps on Propane
26.71 DC amps running off the
inverter

Microwave 2.6 DC amps on, but not cooking
87 DC amps cooking on high

Furnace blower / Fan 8.52 DC amps

* LR Soundbar / Radio .45 DC amps (draw almost
identical whether on or STBY)


Interesting observations charting this out as if camping....

Baseline draw just having the battery switch to on.. 1.58 dc amps which includes the cameras which stay hot, and the detector which stays hot, and the sound bar which stays hot.

Fridge on propane 1.35 amps dc

Sony LR TV and Dish Wally / antenna Off or Stby 2.3 dc amps
Bedroom TV and Wally to Stby or Off .4 dc amps
(Note: The LR TV / entertainment system and bedroom outlets share a breaker. Cannot kill the LR draw by breaker and use the bedroom TV and outlets. Must unplug LR TV to reduce drain if desired at bedtime.

Conclusion... Under the illusion that nothing is running with the exception of the fridge we go to bed consuming 5.63 amp hours or 4.28 amp hours wasted to put it better. Added to this is the inverter which draws too if it's on.

So a typical evening for us boondocking:

We are looking at spending around 145 amp hours to have modest lighting until bed time, the TV on for around 5 or so hours, the thermostat set to around 62 degrees in the winter, to have the incommand on so that we can operate lights etc., from the couch / bed, and about 20 amp hours in parasitic draws. The inverter will spend about 25 amp hours to make this happen and run my CPAP. This is a basic scenario to get to a reasonable time in the morning to run the generator to get ready to do it again. If running the generator until bed time this can be done on a little under a hundred amp hours. So to pull this off it looks like it'll take about 300 ah in batteries to not drop below 50 percent, and we now have 320 total.

Believe me if you haven't measured this stuff you should. These trailers are pigs and they need to be fed, and then some!
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Old 01-24-2018, 02:04 PM   #5
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Thanks so much for all the info. Just out of curiosity are you using an Amp clamp?? Assuming not a meter in series as mine is only a 10A fuse. I usually test key off drains in series at battery but have been kicking around the idea of shelling out for a Fluke amp clamp.
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:39 PM   #6
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Thanks so much for all the info. Just out of curiosity are you using an Amp clamp?? Assuming not a meter in series as mine is only a 10A fuse. I usually test key off drains in series at battery but have been kicking around the idea of shelling out for a Fluke amp clamp.
Yes I borrowed one from my Father. I started out with my Fluke 77 in series and measuring the smaller draws, and then clamping on my dadís meter and comparing. I thought it would be a large disparency, but it was coming in about .012 volts different. Pleasantly surprised I just used the clamp on from there. Iím a believer now...
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Old 01-25-2018, 10:15 AM   #7
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With just my fridge running, I pull about .5 amps. I put in a switch that turns off the fridge door heater strip. That cut it down almost 1 amp. I only flip the switch when I'm boondocking.
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Old 01-29-2018, 10:15 AM   #8
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Another update

Today I put the trailer back in storage and measured the current draw when lowering the front jacks to disconnect the truck. I'm telling you straight up you need to get one of these clamp on meters because they are the bomb! To lower the front jacks they pulled 4.96 amps. When they started to lift the front of the trailer it pulled just a tad over 15 amps. I've suspected that having all six jacks gyrating to lower themselves and then lift and level, followed by putting the slides out was a battery killer before ever starting the campout... Next time the trailer comes home I'll measure the leveling process and the slides, but if the front jacks are an indication the set of 3 on my trailer will be pulling 45 amps, followed by 3 slides that sound hungry too. What a learning process! I've always heard regarding engines that there's no replacement for displacement, and it looks like the same is true for batterys.
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Old 01-29-2018, 10:42 AM   #9
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Most of us who have been around campers for any length of time learned long ago that setup of a 2 slide trailer with an automatic leveling system will deplete a GP24 battery before you unlock the trailer door.

Most will suggest that when dry camping, you should leave the trailer connected to the tow vehicle (and leave it running) during slide deployment and leveling (if you have an automatic system or electric stabilizers). Even with 2 GP 27 batteries, you'll "discharge a day's worth of camping" during setup and it'll take another "day's worth of camping" to prepare for towing home when you break camp.

Most who use their trailers with electric hookups don't realize just how much "battery power" it takes to operate a "modern, convenience loaded camper". You're exposing the truths about why solar power/generator recharging are so important.

Years ago, when we had gas lights, a gravity furnace with no blower and an Instamatic LP refrigerator with no connection to the 12 VDC system, a GP24 battery would last for a week. All we ran was the water pump and 2 overhead lights. Today, EVERYTHING in the trailer depends on battery power, from poop monitors to nightly TV entertainment.

If we keep going, we'll need a trailer full of batteries hitched to the back of our "house trailer" just to get set up in a campground..... (I know, dramatic example, but we keep adding more electric conveniences with every model year introduction)......
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:05 AM   #10
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If we keep going, we'll need a trailer full of batteries hitched to the back of our "house trailer" just to get set up in a campground..... (I know, dramatic example, but we keep adding more electric conveniences with every model year introduction)......
Interesting point and really not as dramatic as it sounds. Seems like the trend forever has been batteries up front. Sure would be nice if manufacturers could figure out how to build in an area for a bank of batteries behind the axles and move those big lead weights to lower tongue/pin weight. Even if it was underneath the trailer or more of a pass through storage at rear with batteries inside. My freshwater tank is all the way at rear, I'm assuming to lower tongue weight by having all the weight at the rear. Why not batteries too??
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Old 01-29-2018, 02:53 PM   #11
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Why not batteries too??
My guesses:
* Putting lead acid batteries anywhere near the axles and having them accessible (meaning near the tires) probably requires some pretty heavy shielding to protect them in the event of a blow-out.

* Where you mount the batteries - you need to keep the other major electrical (high load) components nearby, big copper cable runs aren't cheap.

* A slide for 2 x Group 24 batteries, so they are serviceable, ain't cheap...

* Slides are often in the "middle" of the RV, so you need to build around these things.


I don't see why you couldn't argue to put them in the rear of the RV however... Short of charge distance, that might make more sense for getting weight off the nose.
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Old 01-29-2018, 03:03 PM   #12
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I don't see why you couldn't argue to put them in the rear of the RV however... Short of charge distance, that might make more sense for getting weight off the nose.
That's what I was getting at. Going as far towards rear bumper with batteries as possible. Having a storage locker at rear that could house a bank of 4 or something like that...just a dream most likely.
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Old 02-01-2018, 08:03 AM   #13
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I’m a little nervous about having the small wires on my truck’s plug for the trailer trying to source 40-50 amps while the leveling systems cycles. I think I’ll be on the generator now for this when boondocking. The 4 gauge wires from the converter to the batteries seem more suited for this. Do you have any thoughts on whether this will stress the converter too much?

You’re right about the need for batteries, and more batteries. In a week or so I hope to be in the 600 AH range of AzgM’s on board. It takes creativity to to do something like this though. My trailer has three battery tray and the bottom will only fit a 24 sized battery. I’m getting ready to order solar panels too. Without question my now 2 year old used a Raptor is significantly better than it was as a new camper. I had no idea going in that this was so deficient. Oh, and the achinese tires. Again, had no idea it was worthless to us as shipped...
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Old 02-01-2018, 08:26 AM   #14
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In mid level (priced) trailers and entry level trailers, typically a "two 6volt battery setup" is sufficient for most 1-2 day dry camping trips. Some will get more days some will get less, depending on electrical use. As an example, someone with a manual awning will not be "rolling it in and rolling it out" every time they leave the camper during the trip.

On more expensive trailers with leveling systems, 3, 4, 5 or even more slides, automatic leveling systems, residential refrigerators, overhead "mood lighting", dual furnaces and more, then "all bets are off" as to whether you can get even 2 days with a "four battery setup" without a generator or solar system to replenish the battery bank. Again, a lot depends on how one uses their trailer, but with the "newest luxury trailers" a dealership that sends it out the door with a single GP 24 battery is certainly not doing the new owner any favors......

I always leave my truck running and use the alternator capacity to extend slides during setup, but I ALWAYS have my battery bank on line when doing so. It helps protect the batteries from carrying all the load and gives me a "tad bit more capacity for extending my stay".... I would NEVER EVER (not ever) operate the slides or the landing gear without the batteries being online, no matter if I'm using the converter or the truck alternator for power. Both of those systems are not capable of carrying the total load required by large electrical components. That is an excellent way to burn up a slide motor or overheat and melt a landing gear motor...... ALWAYS HAVE BATTERIES CONNECTED WHEN USING HEAVY LOAD MOTORS !!!!!
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:19 AM   #15
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I’m a little nervous about having the small wires on my truck’s plug for the trailer trying to source 40-50 amps while the leveling systems cycles. I think I’ll be on the generator now for this when boondocking. The 4 gauge wires from the converter to the batteries seem more suited for this. Do you have any thoughts on whether this will stress the converter too much?

You’re right about the need for batteries, and more batteries. In a week or so I hope to be in the 600 AH range of AzgM’s on board. It takes creativity to to do something like this though. My trailer has three battery tray and the bottom will only fit a 24 sized battery. I’m getting ready to order solar panels too. Without question my now 2 year old used a Raptor is significantly better than it was as a new camper. I had no idea going in that this was so deficient. Oh, and the achinese tires. Again, had no idea it was worthless to us as shipped...
As for leaving truck hooked up while doing slides and such, if I'm not mistaken you can't overdraw the truck wiring because the converter is only going to pull so many amps, possibly no different than having low batteries and being charged while driving down the road. At least that's the way I understand it, since the converter only trickle charges the batteries you can't hurt the truck wiring because all power from your truck has to run through the converter. I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 02-01-2018, 01:12 PM   #16
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As for leaving truck hooked up while doing slides and such, if I'm not mistaken you can't overdraw the truck wiring because the converter is only going to pull so many amps, possibly no different than having low batteries and being charged while driving down the road. At least that's the way I understand it, since the converter only trickle charges the batteries you can't hurt the truck wiring because all power from your truck has to run through the converter. I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
Your statements (Changed to red) bring up a point that I'm not certain about, so I've sent an email to WFCO to get their explanation. I don't believe that the converter has any control over or influence in charging the trailer battery during towing. I think (from what I understand about converter operation) that unless the converter is powered by 120 VAC, it does not produce any DC voltage and does not influence the voltage level that is being supplied by the tow vehicle alternator/voltage regulator. What comes through pin #4 on the trailer umbilical plug is not affected by the converter, rather it bypasses the converter and goes directly to the DC fuse panel input lugs in the power distribution center. The converter is not powered on and doesn't have any influence in DC power unless the trailer is plugged into shore power or a generator.

I'll post the answers from WFCO when they respond.
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Old 02-01-2018, 02:49 PM   #17
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John I think we might be miscommunicating and probably my doing. To clarify I’m not talking about disconnecting my batteries to run my leveling jacks and to extend my slides. Of course the batteries are in the circuit. What I am questioning but didn’t separate enough to be clearly understood in my question was was actually two part.... Which is a better idea, and on 1. Will the converter be worked too hard?

1. Running the generator which provides AC to the converter, which has HUGE current carrying wires to the battery bank to source 12vdc into the circuit while running the jacks and slides....
.

Or

2. Apply 12vdc from my running truck thru small trailer plug wires to the batteries that are being massively and rapidly depleted by the jacks and slides.

I’m sorry for the poor wording above. I just thought it was obvious what I meant. My bad... Also please note I’m trying to learn, not be a know it all. 1. and 2. represent my understanding of how this works, but I’m not claiming my understanding is correct. If it is indeed correct albeit greatly simplified which way I a better choice in your opinion?
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Old 02-01-2018, 03:21 PM   #18
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Wildhorse,

I understand your question and as for the "demand on the truck wiring" there is a fused circuit that protects the wiring in the truck. You can't "melt the wires" (if things are working properly) since the fuse (on Fords, it's under the hood) will open if you draw more than the wiring is designed to carry.

As for the trailer, if you have batteries connected to your DC electrical system, they serve as a "buffer" against excessive current draws during slide or leveling system operation. Without the battery, if you're on shore power or using a generator, you can place an instant (startup) load on the converter and damage it. Usually the damage is from repetitive use, not from a "oops, one time kind of use"... So, the batteries are in the system to protect the converter when it is powered by shore/generator power. When you're not on shore power and have the umbilical connected, you can't damage the wiring because the truck underhood fuse protects it from excess current draw. If, however, you did not have batteries in the trailer and plugged in the umbilical, you'd probably blow that underhood fuse from overloading the umbilical wiring with the slide motor current draw. So the batteries protect that circuit from overload as well.

What I addressed is the statement that when connected to the tow vehicle the "converter" controls XXX" As I interpret the schematics I've seen and as I understand the system, the converter is not a part of the DC charging system or the DC power distribution system when connected to the tow vehicle. The ONLY time the converter influences DC power is when it is "making DC from shore power or the generator".... In other words, when the truck is charging the trailer battery through the umbilical, the converter might as well be a brick. It's not connected to anything or even powered on.



So, in response to your last post. If you have batteries connected in your trailer, you can operate the slides/leveling system from them. If you want to "adequately recharge the batteries" you can do that with the converter by using shore power or a generator (larger wires will carry more current to recharge what was used)

If you attempt to recharge the batteries using the trailer umbilical, about the most you can get is 5 amps of DC power through the "fuse protected" wiring, so it will take significantly longer to recharge what was used during slide and leveling system operation. So from an efficiency perspective, it is not very efficient to rely on the truck to recharge the batteries. Even when towing it takes many hours to "top off a half charged battery".... You'd be better off using the generator/converter, it will recharge your batteries much faster and more efficiently. Towing all day will barely make a dent in a two 6 volt battery setup that is at 50% charge.....

I leave my truck plugged in during slide operation, not because it will "replace all the DC I use, but because it will help power the slides, preserving my battery charge (a little) so I can dry camp longer before I need to recharge the batteries....

Sort of: If I have 100 amps in my batteries and I use 20 amps deploying the slides, if I can get 5 amps from the umbilical, I'll have 5 amps more than if the truck was disconnected.... If I was on shore power, that wouldn't be necessary since I could recharge the batteries in about 30 minutes of converter operation....

Maybe you're more confused now than before, I hope not
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Old 02-01-2018, 05:25 PM   #19
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Thank you. My truck has either a 20 or 30 amp fuse for charging trailer batteries, I'd have to look. I'm now with you on this. Again, thank you. That was a long and well thought out response. I very much appreciate your time as I try to get a handle on this...
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Old 02-01-2018, 06:07 PM   #20
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Thank you. My truck has either a 20 or 30 amp fuse for charging trailer batteries, I'd have to look. I'm now with you on this. Again, thank you. That was a long and well thought out response. I very much appreciate your time as I try to get a handle on this...
Remember that there is a significant voltage drop with DC systems. A 4 ga wire will drop significantly less than a 14 ga wire. So even though you have a 25 or 30 amp fuse, you may only be getting 5 amps 20' away at the battery terminals on your trailer. Also, any time you measure a DC circuit, you double the distance (all electricity travels from the source to the load and back to the source) so if your trailer battery is 20' from your truck alternator/voltage regulator, the actual circuit distance is 40' so if you're calculating the voltage drop, you'd use that distance (40) to determine the line loss in the battery charging circuit. It seems complicated and, I suppose, the thing to remember is using the umbilical to charge the trailer batteries is not an effective way to accomplish the task.
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