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Old 03-26-2016, 06:40 AM   #21
Desert185
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Originally Posted by bill-e View Post
Yes, the EMS would and im my case did. As stated above it was resolved with the Hard Start Cap.
That's my next mod.
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Old 03-26-2016, 08:31 AM   #22
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A lot of great info here. Has anyone tried the Honda 2000 connected to the Honda 2000 Conpanion on a 15K A/C?
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:06 AM   #23
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A lot of great info here. Has anyone tried the Honda 2000 connected to the Honda 2000 Companion on a 15K A/C?
Not I, but I've seen many a post stating that would work. Honda has the best overload specs of all the generators.
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Old 03-26-2016, 01:15 PM   #24
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A lot of great info here. Has anyone tried the Honda 2000 connected to the Honda 2000 Conpanion on a 15K A/C?
Yep, the day before yesterday. Two brand new Honda's with their parallel kit. I had just ran them at varying loads for 8-9 hours. I changed the oil to Pennzoil Synthetic 10w-30, hooked up the parallel kit, threw the 5th main breaker open, fired 'em up, threw the main and ran them 2-3 hours with the 15000 BTU A/C on.
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Old 03-26-2016, 01:29 PM   #25
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Honda builds two models of the EU2000i generator, the EU2000i and the EU2000i companion. They both use the same 98.5cc 4 cycle motor and the same generator head. Output is rated at 3000max and 1600 continuous for both models.

It's not the same situation with the EU3000iS and the EU3000i handi. The handi has a 163cc motor and is rated at 2600 watts continuous. The EU3000iS has a 196cc motor and is rated at 2800 watts continuous.

Using a parallel cable to connect two Honda 2000 watt generators would provide 4000 watts surge and 3200 watts continuous. That is very close to the recommended generator wattage suggested by Dometic and "should" provide more than adequate power to operate a single 15K A/C (about 15.3 Amps/1836 watts) and miscellaneous equipment in the trailer. There will be a "surge of power demand required to start the A/C, probably an added 5 amps. How much "starting amperage" is required depends largely on the temperature, compressor head pressure and "bleed down time" within the compressor plumbing though the condenser/evaporator. Every A/C acts differently depending on internal configuration and ambient temperature. That's why some need an "easy start capacitor" and others just keep plugging along without one.

Something to consider is how a generator is rated. It's much the same as a gasoline truck engine is rated. Take for instance, a Ford 5.0l engine in a 2016 F150. It's rated at 385 HP @ 5750 rpm. Very few of us would "wring out" a truck engine to 5750 RPM for any significant length of time without a great deal of "pucker factor" that it will come unglued under the hood.

Generators are rated much the same way. The Honda 2000 is rated at 2000 "surge" and 1600 "continuous". That means it can provide a "momentary" output of up to 2000 watts and a "continuous output of 1600 watts". Just as the Ford can provide a momentary output of 385 HP and a "continuous output significantly lower for a sustained time. All of us (I think) would hesitate to operate our truck engine at a "sustained 4500 RPM (significantly lower than the maximum of 5750, and we'd much prefer to operate it below 3500 RPM for "hours on end" while towing.

Generators are much the same. Just because it's "rated" to produce 1600 watts "continuous" doesn't mean that it's "good for the machine" to operate it that way for extended periods of time. Just like the truck, the less "horsing it" you do, the longer it'll last.
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:52 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by gearhead View Post
Yep, the day before yesterday. Two brand new Honda's with their parallel kit. I had just ran them at varying loads for 8-9 hours. I changed the oil to Pennzoil Synthetic 10w-30, hooked up the parallel kit, threw the 5th main breaker open, fired 'em up, threw the main and ran them 2-3 hours with the 15000 BTU A/C on.
Good info. Thanks! I'm pretty sure this is the way I'm gonna go.
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Old 03-26-2016, 04:19 PM   #27
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Generators are much the same. Just because it's "rated" to produce 1600 watts "continuous" doesn't mean that it's "good for the machine" to operate it that way for extended periods of time. Just like the truck, the less "horsing it" you do, the longer it'll last.

I'll engage in a friendly debate on that:

The difference is RPM. Automotive motors tend to put out peak HP at an RPM that's pretty stressful on the motor. Although I agree that it'd be bad to operate your Corvette at peak HP all day long (assuming you could keep it on the road) - 6000rpm ~460hp, the difference in these generators is that they're constant RPM regardless of load.

That is (not considering the "eco" option) - they run at the same fixed 3600 RPM regardless of how much power you're demanding. Your automotive motor has a much wider operating range and most aren't built to sustain peak HP operation, at least if you want them to live for a decade...

What changes with generator load is the stress on the motor, not the RPM. When you load them, you're doing two things:
1) Putting more physical load on the motor, which is counter acted-by moving to a more open throttle position to keep that 3600 rpm.
2) You're pushing more amps through the windings on the electrical side.

As long as you're under the "continuous" rating - you should be fine. The motor itself is designed for that stress (more actually @ peak rating) and the internal windings were designed for this amp load and can operate on it indefinitely, much like the 15-20A circuits in your home.

Exceed rated capacity and one of two things will happen:
1) You'll over draw the electrics and trip a breaker.
2) You'll pull down below 3600 rpm and quickly kill the generator.. Kinda like stalling your stick-shift car.

Neither of which is a sustainable condition. This affords some protection against "doing it wrong".


Before JRTJH throws me under the bus for being an idiot, I'll point out a parallel:

General aviation motors, those in your basic Cessna or Piper, largely operate at exactly the same way as a generator motor. That is, they operate at peak RPM pretty much all day long without downside. And like generator motors, that peak RPM is relatively low (typically 2500-2800 rpm). They're designed for it - long stroke, relatively low RPM, they're built to build power this RPM range and sustain it. Loading them up doesn't hurt them as long as you stay within general design limits. Many mechanics will argue that "babying" an aviation motor is actually worse for it that running it at 75-100% power..

Note, a 5.0L Ford can put down 400 hp at 6000rpm. A 5.0L Cessna puts down 180hp at 2700 rpm - so there are trade-offs to this sort of design difference, not accounting for the difference in technology.

I'd say that running a generator near peak continuous load is probably about the same as towing with your truck within it's tow rating. It's doing more work, it's eating more fuel, and it is harder than sitting around not towing, but it's by no means abusive or horsing it..
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Old 03-26-2016, 05:55 PM   #28
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Got this in an email earlier today!

http://www.campingworld.com/browse/s...FQ8yaQodXlYKUg
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:43 PM   #29
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dcg9831,

I don't know why you'd think anyone would be thrown under the bus.

Your analogy of the 3600RPM generator is true for the "OLD" contractor single speed generator, but doesn't apply to the inverter generator. It doesn't "spin at 3600 RPM and varies speed depending on inverter load. Essentially, it's a 12 VDC alternator coupled to a 2000 watt inverter with a "sustained rating" of 1600 watts (when in "Honda colors" and 1700 watts when in "Champion colors"). The gas motor drives the alternator head at a "slow speed" when little power is required and the engine RPM increases (as does the alternator head speed) when more power is required by the inverter section. The alternator output is rectified and fed to the inverter section as 12VDC. The gas motor idles unless more DC power is required and only runs at "max RPM" when under "heavy load", so essentially, loading the generator to "continuous power output" causes it to run faster, creating more wear and reducing it's lifetime. How much??? I've no idea, but if you consider that bearings (and other components) have a mean time to failure, the more times the bearing turns, the faster it reaches that life expectancy.

You can read Yamaha's explanation of the difference between the two generator technologies here: http://www.yamahaef2000is.com/conven...generator.html

As for whether it's "good or bad" for a generator to run it at peak RPM and peak output is entirely up to the individual. Run yours any way you want, I'll "baby mine" and expect it to be around for many years. Hopefully they will live up to my expectations. My concern for how equipment is treated by owners is the main reason I don't buy used equipment. Your views may differ, I won't object at all
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Old 03-27-2016, 12:18 AM   #30
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Champion Power 3100-watt Portable Gas Inverter Generator runs my 15000 BTU AC with no issues I can also run all the interior lights (changed to LEDís) and water pump. If I need to run the microwave I will just turn off the AC and then turn it back on as needed, run the fridge on propane. For the money the Champion is a nice unit they also have a newer 3500W model that looks the same.
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Old 03-27-2016, 04:56 AM   #31
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Anybody that runs there air with a generator should have a ac volt meter.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Camco-55263-...RV5444&vxp=mtr

Yes a lot of generators will run your air but if you don't have the right voltage you will burn the ac unit up because they will run on lower voltage but you would never know it without the meter. Easy to use just plug it in an outlet and if the needle is in the green you good to go.
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Old 03-27-2016, 02:57 PM   #32
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Your analogy of the 3600RPM generator is true for the "OLD" contractor single speed generator, but doesn't apply to the inverter generator.
I didn't realize the discussion was particular to the inverter-type. And note, I did mention the "Eco" option (non-constant speed), but I didn't call out inverter generators by name...

I don't (yet) own an inverter generator, but the gensets I have, I'll run right up to rated capacity, as long as they're not lugging and sustain RPM. I believe they're made to do it, just like aircraft motors.

Another poster is right, an AC volt meter is good to have, but generally if they're dropping off, you can hear it..

I understand how you might feed differently in the inverter generator case, that makes a little more sense to me - as it's much more like running a car at higher RPM.

The one I baby has "Onan" on the label - and generally, I run the champion simple to keep the hours off of it... But when I do run it, I don't hesitate to use both ACs.. :-)
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Old 03-27-2016, 05:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by dcg9381 View Post
I didn't realize the discussion was particular to the inverter-type. ...
I don't (yet) own an inverter generator, but the gensets I have, I'll run right up to rated capacity, as long as they're not lugging and sustain RPM. I believe they're made to do it, just like aircraft motors...
The part of my post quoted in "friendly debate" was specifically addressing Honda EU2000 generators and their "rated continuous output" of 1600 watts. So, yes, I was specifically addressing inverter generators in my comments.

The points that you made really are more addressed to the "old technology" of "construction generators", and I agree with you about conventional generator use and operation. It's true that most "conventional (construction type) generators are capable of producing any output "up to the continuous rating" because they all turn at 3600 RPM (so the generator output is 60 cycles per second). Because of that requirement of having to run at "full speed" all the time, they typically produce more noise, use more fuel and still don't produce "clean energy" from most of the models that are used in the RV environment. Having said that, even with "conventional generators" I've found that in hot weather, running the generator "up to the max" continuous rating for a sustained time (more than 3 or 4 hours) will often cause degradation of the field windings leading to premature failure of the generator head (usually measured in seasons or years of operation, not trips in a single summer).

Essentially, this entire thread has been about "generators for RV's" but almost all the models discussed and most of the posts have referred to inverter generators.

You're right to consider that with your "conventional generator" you can "run it right up to the rated output as long as it maintains RPM and doesn't lug down". Two "BIG" considerations with conventional generators is to monitor their output to be sure it's not over the continuous rating (the output isn't monitored automatically and they will "overwork themselves" up to the breaker's rating) and probably the most important consideration is to always, ALWAYS allow the generator to run with no load for several minutes (at least) so it will cool down before you "shut it down". Probably the biggest "induced failure condition" is stopping a hot generator and allowing it to "heat soak" and damage the field windings.

Like conventional generators, inverter generators need to be "treated kindly" at shutdown to prolong their life.

Fortunately, with most RV's, even when the generator is used to power the A/C, the compressor only runs for 15 or 20 minutes at a time, so the power demand for most generators changes frequently, allowing the generator/alternator head to cool down frequently during the "continuous operation" of the equipment.
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Old 04-03-2016, 11:02 AM   #34
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Depending on the particular AC unit and the condition of its starting curcuit one might even experience issues where once there wern't any.

I had a brand new 15K unit which would not run on either my 2400w Yamaha or my pair of 2000w since the Yamahas can have issues maintaining an instantaneous overload condition.

I installed this $12 part and my issues went away. As a matter of fact when I removed the AC cover, the wiring diagram even included it as optional.

Hard Start Cap
Are you saying the Yamaha 2000 will start 13.5 BTU AC without overload with hard cap installed?
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Old 04-03-2016, 02:08 PM   #35
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Are you saying the Yamaha 2000 will start 13.5 BTU AC without overload with hard cap installed?
No, he's saying this, "I had a brand new 15K unit which would not run on either my 2400w Yamaha or my pair of 2000w since the Yamahas can have issues maintaining an instantaneous overload condition."

His new 15K A/C wouldn't start with either his "SINGLE" Yamaha 2400 unit or his "PAIR" of Yamaha 2000 units. He reported he installed a "hard start capacitor" and his problem went away. He never stated he even tried to run it on a single Yamaha 2000 watt generator. I don't see where bill-e ever even addressed trying to start a 13.5K A/C.
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Old 04-04-2016, 01:21 PM   #36
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No, he's saying this, "I had a brand new 15K unit which would not run on either my 2400w Yamaha or my pair of 2000w since the Yamahas can have issues maintaining an instantaneous overload condition."

His new 15K A/C wouldn't start with either his "SINGLE" Yamaha 2400 unit or his "PAIR" of Yamaha 2000 units. He reported he installed a "hard start capacitor" and his problem went away. He never stated he even tried to run it on a single Yamaha 2000 watt generator. I don't see where bill-e ever even addressed trying to start a 13.5K A/C.
Excuse me for missing that detail.
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Old 04-04-2016, 02:12 PM   #37
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As for a 13.5k unit, my Yamaha 2400is ran it just fine but since that camper and AC unit we're used, I have no idea as to whether or not it had a Hard Start cap installed which I didn't mention it in my original reply.

I'm pretty happy with the Yamaha's even though they have a surge capacity issue. The motors are a great design and they have both a fuel gauge and fuel cutoff which the Honda 2000's don't have.

Did I mention that we got 5"+ of snow today which forced me to reschedule a warranty appointment for my camper!!
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