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Old 10-14-2014, 09:25 AM   #21
JRTJH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paoutlaw View Post
http://www.keystonerv.com/previous-y...zion&year=2012
This is where I got my info. If its wrong. I was miss informed.
Im at work now but i will look tonight.
BUt even so I would have to be at the upper limit if not over
You apparently either mistyped the maximum cargo weight or skipped a column when reading it. The max carrying capaicity from the link you provided is 4435, not 4010. I think that's what CWtheman was stating.
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:26 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by paoutlaw View Post
http://www.keystonerv.com/previous-y...zion&year=2012
This is where I got my info. If its wrong. I was miss informed.
Im at work now but i will look tonight.
BUt even so I would have to be at the upper limit if not over

That's the same Keystone reference I'm working from. Here is what I was working on before you posted your last posts..

Your particular year & model Fuzion is a unit I refer to when knocking on Keystoneís door about weight regulations and under sized tires. Iíve included a youtube reference to confirm the two axle configuration of this unit. Iíve also included the Keystone spec sheet. I cannot confirm that this particular year & model has had a recall for certification label violations so Iíll just go from there.

http://www.keystonerv.com/previous-y...zion&year=2012

.

First let me say that no matter how Keystone has come to fit this trailer with 3520# tires they are not nearly enough tire for a trailer of itís weight class. IMO itís a shameful act on the part of the Keystone engineering and manufacturing team.

When using the specs for this unit as depicted in the Keystone reference, we see that the GVWR is 16500#. When the published hitch weight of 2770# is deducted from the GVWR the total weight for GAWR displacement is 13730#. Divided by 2 equals 6865 per axle. Thatís the lowest figure Keystone can fix the GAWR at on the certification label. Without a letter of intent to NHTSA that confirms the use of ST235/80R16E tires rated at 3520# with a cold air pressure of 80 psi Keystone is in violation of a part of FMVSS 571.120. Why? Because there are, or have been, three distinct maximum load capacities for the ST235/80R16E tires. 3420#, 3500# and 3520#, all at 80 psi. Without distinguishing which load capacity tire applies to the trailer on its certification label, tire placard, and ownerís manual all of those load capacity tires default to the lowest load capacity. The 3420# tire is under the minimum load requirements for the installed axles GAWR.

Keystone has the option of lowering the established cargo load where the axles can have a GAWR of 6750# or send in the necessary paperwork to establish only the 3520# tires as sutible for fitment on the trailer. They would also have to change the certification label, tire placard and notations in the ownerís manual.

So, what does your certification label say?[/

CW
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:59 AM   #23
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Thumbs up

thank you all for helping me understand clearly.
it is just so close to on all the axle and tire rating. I was concerned i was over weight for my tires. My tow vehicle is rated for 3000 pin weight per its manual.
I know its back their with full load of water and toys and all my stuff.still pulls better than my travel trailer we used to have. with all the bad news surrounding the tow max tires keeps me looking at them all the time.
this will be the last trip for them. off to knobles park this weekend.
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Old 10-14-2014, 11:28 AM   #24
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out west what i believe you are not seeing is that the other campers these tires are on are twice the weight of your camper. and they are over the maxed capacity in dry weight them we load all are stuff and they are under rated. when every thing is at full load with water and cargo.
You may have a bit of a point there. Assuming the weight is evenly distributed over my axles (which it isn't) the specs on my rig look like there's a bit more leeway than some of the ones out there (except I really wish the axles had higher ratings)

On ours

GVWR 8200 lbs
GAWR (each axle) 4400 lbs
CCC 1300 lbs or 935 lbs with fresh water full (though usually only travel with around 1/3-1/2 full)
Tires are ST225/75R15D rated at 2540 lbs each

Add to that all the misc stuff -- cargo hold pretty much full incl several tools in toolbox, 2 1/2 weeks worth of clothing for 2 ppl, food, laptops, laser printer, etc...

I really should hit a scale some time to see what actual weight (loaded and unloaded) is.
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:43 PM   #25
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resolution

It took about 3 months, but I finally got resolution to my tire problem Ė not what I wanted, but at least something. I contacted the distributor, Dynamic Tire, in Canada and they requested that I send them the bad tire. I did this quite a while ago and just this week got a letter from them. They state that the tire shows signs of an impact from a foreign object which damaged the tire crown and also the sidewall. I donít ever recall running over something and would think that my truck would have suffered damage because it should have hit the same thing. They also said the tire showed signs of high stress from under inflation or over loading. I have always checked the pressure and kept it at 80 psi before leaving on a trip. I have never had the trailer weighed, but donít think that I overloaded it.

They also said that a tire could be damaged and not fail for days or weeks after the incident. The take away from this is to check your tires often and take action if there are unusual wear spots.

I think that Keystone is partially to blame for putting tires on their trailers that have no margin of safety. If I recall correctly, the weight limit for the Towmax tires was about 3000 pounds each. With a hitch weight of 2700 pounds and four tires at 3000 pounds each, that would give me a capacity of 14,700 pounds total. I believe that this number is the max weight of the trailer Ė no room for any errors due to excessive weight or uneven loading of the trailer.

Dynamic Tire repeatedly said that there was no evidence of manufacturing defect, but did say that they would give me $125 to replace the tire (as long as I signed a general release of liability). Total damage to the trailer was $2003 and I have a $1000 deductible. I did immediately purchase four new Goodyear LT tires, 14 ply with a capacity of over 4000 pounds each, total of $1423. I donít expect to have any more tire problems. An expensive lesson!

Be safe and check those tires often!
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:47 PM   #26
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Trailer Kings came on my SRX. I just replaced them, including the spare with Maxxis LRE's. Not worth the chance of something going wrong with the china bombs.

Dealing with the "blamers" after the fact is as painful to me as the possible damage done to the trailer or the injury as a result of marginal tires inflated religiously to the proper pressure.
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Old 11-19-2014, 06:04 PM   #27
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This is an interesting discussion and one that folks, myself included, need to take to heart.

When I bought my Cougar High Country 319rls at the end of Feb. this year I went and checked the tires on the unit....thanks to this forum. My RV has a GVW of 10,000lbs. I have 225/75D15 tires rated at 2550lbs (from memory). Total carrying weight was 10,200 lbs. Hmmm, so close to the GVW. Then I looked at the total axle weights, hmmm, 5600lbs each. Axles and tires equal exactly the same thing? What a coincidence.

I initiated a long dialogue with Keystone and included the NHTSA. Keystone's technical manager (Garett Carolus - for Keystone/Dutchmen) told me their axles are rated by the weight rating of the tire? (really). When I told him the legislation I had read said they were supposed to at least give a 15% safety margin he said that had been proposed..but hadn't happened yet. I asked if he didn't think that is something that should be mandatory...he said we meet the law.

I could go on but suffice it to say that whatever you have on your trailer from Keystone will be the BARE minimum to meet the law...not keep you safe.

And by the way, when Keystone says the tongue weight should be deducted from the total trailer weight....the NHTSA guy told me that was incorrect. The tires/axles are supposed to meet or exceed the GVW of the trailer........
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Old 11-19-2014, 06:11 PM   #28
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"And by the way, when Keystone says the tongue weight should be deducted from the total trailer weight....the NHTSA guy told me that was incorrect. The tires/axles are supposed to meet or exceed the GVW of the trailer........"

My axles don't meet that standard, but the tires do.
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Old 11-19-2014, 08:08 PM   #29
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If you're axles don't meet the gvw of your trailer there is a problem. The guy from Keystone told me that they always meet...the Minimum weight requirements of GVW of the trailer. You should not have a trailer with a possible legal weight of xxx sitting on axles, from the factory, that won't meet that standard (as told to me by the NHTSA person - and statute, as I read it).
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:31 AM   #30
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Do you have a link for that standard?


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Old 11-20-2014, 09:17 AM   #31
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Let me dig around and see if I have that. My situation evolved over a period of a month or so with multiple conversations between myself, owner relations, the Keystone technical manager and the NHTSA rep. Some of the material was copied and pasted into emails...I think. Some of it I had printed and used as reference in the conversations. Let me see what I can find.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:42 AM   #32
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I do not have the link for that statute. I found it by googling federal laws pertaining to towing/tires/axles. At the time my concern was the tires; the axle info was just a comment thrown into the conversation if I recall - this is from memory. I do have a reference to Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 119 (49 CFR 571.119, S5.1(b) which may be of some help, or at least another paragraph of it.

If your trailer weighs more than your axles say they will support I would research the law and contact Keystone. One interesting comment the tech manager made to me when discussing tires/weight rating and axle rating was that the axle was "given" a weight rating that corresponded to what the tire rating was; ie; my axle rating for each axle is exactly what the maximum load of the tires is. Maybe it's just a generic axle that could support 2,000lbs or 12,000lbs...I don't know. I do know that the tech manager was very knowledgeable of the law and the NHTSA, which he said he worked with, and actually knew some of the folks there. From his comments to me I doubt that they have run afoul of the law, as I accused them of, intentionally unless someone mistakenly put the wrong axles on your trailer. He definitely knew the ins and outs so read all the fine print because I'm sure they have.

I don't want to muddy the water and send you off in the wrong direction: I am certainly not a legal expert on this. This is the experience I had and some of the things I learned (or was told at least) as I tried to work my way thru the maze. Food for thought I guess.
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:12 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
Desert

If you're axles don't meet the gvw of your trailer there is a problem. The guy from Keystone told me that they always meet...the Minimum weight requirements of GVW of the trailer. You should not have a trailer with a possible legal weight of xxx sitting on axles, from the factory, that won't meet that standard (as told to me by the NHTSA person - and statute, as I read it).
Iím going to try and explain this so you can go out and look at the labeling on your trailer and verify the figures you are concerned about.

All trailers MUST have a certification label. Itís found on the LH forward external portion of the trailer.

The axles manufacturerís weight rating is not necessarily used in tire fitments unless they match the GAWR values found on the certification label. The vehicle manufacturer has the authority to set GAWR via DOT regulations. It is a common practice which allows them to sell a balanced - on paper - product.

One of the tests a trailer manufacturer MUST pass is to make sure to GAWR (total) and published hitch/pin weight equals or exceeds GVWR. Keystone is very good in providing those figures in their specs.

ALL trailers hitch and pin weights are supported by the tow vehicle. Only the vehicle manufacturerís published Hitch and Pin weights are used in computations made before first sale. Once sold itís the responsibility of the vehicle owner to insure itís properly loaded and balanced.

Make a best friend of some nearby scales to avoid overloading and unbalanced conditions is my best recommendation for RV trailer owners.

CW

Regulations direct RV trailer manufacturers to set GVWR, GAWR, determine proper tire and rim fitments and set the recommender (cold) air pressures for the fitted tires and put that information on the trailerís certification label.
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Old 11-20-2014, 05:29 PM   #34
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CW

I don't need to look at my label....been there, done that. Don't need to hit a scale, done that too. I don't have a problem. It was resolved a month after I bought my trailer at the end of Feb.

With the conversation going on and some of the questions/concerns being voiced I tried to relay my experience with Keystone Owner Relations, their national technical manager and the NHTSA (primarily about tires). As I put in the response; I am not an expert on the subject but I do know the numerous conversations I had with those folks that might shed some light on some of those questions and could be used for food for thought or further research.

You did provide some good information that might be useful for those that were concerned.


Another note: We discussed hitch weight vs GAWR. I have a TT not a 5th wheel. The subject of hitch weight vs total GAWR and how they played was brought up. When I told them I would use a WD hitch and felt that would have a bearing on how the axles were rated. The TV does accept the hitch weight but the WD hitch does in fact re-distribute that weight. He told me that the tires and axles would be rated to carry the GVW of the TT - not less the hitch weight. I'm sure a 5th wheel would be different.
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:08 PM   #35
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Sourdough I appreciate your insight. I'll look around a bit more online and see what I can find. My curiosity has got me wanting to know more lol Thanks


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Old 11-20-2014, 09:02 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
Another note: We discussed hitch weight vs GAWR. I have a TT not a 5th wheel. The subject of hitch weight vs total GAWR and how they played was brought up. When I told them I would use a WD hitch and felt that would have a bearing on how the axles were rated. The TV does accept the hitch weight but the WD hitch does in fact re-distribute that weight. He told me that the tires and axles would be rated to carry the GVW of the TT - not less the hitch weight. I'm sure a 5th wheel would be different.
ALL trailers hitch and pin weights are supported by the tow vehicle. Only the vehicle manufacturerís published Hitch and Pin weights are used in computations made before first sale. Once sold itís the responsibility of the vehicle owner to insure itís properly loaded and balanced. Obviously you have done that. No matter how you transfer the weight around, something is carried by the tow vehicle. Would you like to have the official reference?

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Old 11-21-2014, 12:01 PM   #37
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I don't think I need a "reference". I read the federal laws that regulate these things a dozen times, read them to Keystone and the NHTSA, had them read to me, explained my interpretation and they explained theirs. We all ended up on the same page. I am just trying to put some of those conversations into a nutshell for those that might want to do some further investigation if they think they have a problem - obviously I'm not doing a very good job and I apologize.
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