Andersen safety concern

[roadglide]

This is my story. I have over 3000 lbs on my Anderson and drove hundreds of miles to Warren Bridge Wyoming high hitched with no chains . My point is the heavy weight kept the fifer from jumping off the ball. I disassembled the bonnet every thing was good even with the pin closed riding on the ball .

[jasin1]

looks like anderson doesn’t believe they are even necessary as they were tested and approved as a fifth wheel hitch…they even say it’s being overly cautious

to them it’s no more likely to fail then a Reese or Curt standard fifth wheel hitch that most people have.

It seems to me that the most likely failure of a Anderson hitch would be in a accident or heavy braking when the weight of the fifth wheel pushes forward…don’t know if the chains would help in that scenario

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by jasin1

looks like anderson doesn’t believe they are even necessary as they were tested and approved as a fifth wheel hitch…they even say it’s being overly cautious

to them it’s no more likely to fail then a Reese or Curt standard fifth wheel hitch that most people have.

It seems to me that the most likely failure of a Anderson hitch would be in a accident or heavy braking when the weight of the fifth wheel pushes forward…don’t know if the chains would help in that scenario

The problem, as I perceive it, is the "legal issues an owner will face with no support from the manufacturer"... Use this as an example:

I live in Michigan. The towing laws in this state require safety chains on ALL BALL TYPE HITCHES... The way the law is written, on a "hitch using a ball connection, safety chains that will restrain the trailer MUST be used.

Now, whether Andersen did/did not do adequate testing and whether Grade 5 or Grade 8 bolts make a difference, it's not going to be Andersen who is sitting in a courtroom in Michigan if my trailer breaks away from my truck and causes harm to someone who hires a lawyer to sue me. Sure, I can try to implicate Andersen, use whatever my lawyer can devise to try to remove any responsibility for the problem from me and place it on Andersen, on road conditions, on the injured party, all of which may or may not work to my benefit.

All that said, KNOWING whether the safety chains will restrain the trailer "if it happens to separate" should be an engineering decision made by the manufacturer based on "engineering principles" not based on "well, it shouldn't separate and conventional fifth wheel hitches are exempt, so we should be too"..... I can see that argument flying out the window on the first objection from the plaintiff's lawyer and the judge sustaining it, making me responsible, regardless of what Andersen's philosophies may be.....

Like Lynette and Danny said, it's "spooky frightening" to even think that Andersen's engineers are so "caviler in their concern" as to even state that "if a Grade 8 bolt will make you feel better, we guess that would be OK"....

I don't have a dog in this race, and reading through this thread, I'm feeling fortunate that I don't have to worry about whether a manufacturer did (or didn't do) adequate testing to keep me and others safe when I'm using their product. Scary to even think that Andersen might believe so much in their product's reliability that they discount the safety requirements mandated by some states, putting owners at risk in those states "if" the Andersen hitch might fail from whatever "freak accident".....

Sort of like Boeing saying, "We believe so much in our engine reverse thrust system that we didn't put brakes on the landing gear".....

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

The problem, as I perceive it, is the "legal issues an owner will face with no support from the manufacturer"... Use this as an example:

I live in Michigan. The towing laws in this state require safety chains on ALL BALL TYPE HITCHES... The way the law is written, on a "hitch using a ball connection, safety chains that will restrain the trailer MUST be used.

Now, whether Andersen did/did not do adequate testing and whether Grade 5 or Grade 8 bolts make a difference, it's not going to be Andersen who is sitting in a courtroom in Michigan if my trailer breaks away from my truck and causes harm to someone who hires a lawyer to sue me. Sure, I can try to implicate Andersen, use whatever my lawyer can devise to try to remove any responsibility for the problem from me and place it on Andersen, on road conditions, on the injured party, all of which may or may not work to my benefit.

All that said, KNOWING whether the safety chains will restrain the trailer "if it happens to separate" should be an engineering decision made by the manufacturer based on "engineering principles" not based on "well, it shouldn't separate and conventional fifth wheel hitches are exempt, so we should be too"..... I can see that argument flying out the window on the first objection from the plaintiff's lawyer and the judge sustaining it, making me responsible, regardless of what Andersen's philosophies may be.....

Like Lynette and Danny said, it's "spooky frightening" to even think that Andersen's engineers are so "caviler in their concern" as to even state that "if a Grade 8 bolt will make you feel better, we guess that would be OK"....

I don't have a dog in this race, and reading through this thread, I'm feeling fortunate that I don't have to worry about whether a manufacturer did (or didn't do) adequate testing to keep me and others safe when I'm using their product. Scary to even think that Andersen might believe so much in their product's reliability that they discount the safety requirements mandated by some states, putting owners at risk in those states "if" the Andersen hitch might fail from whatever "freak accident".....

Sort of like Boeing saying, "We believe so much in our engine reverse thrust system that we didn't put brakes on the landing gear".....

i agree i should have made it clear that i would definitely have chains if i had a anderson hitch…i just found it interesting that the manufacturer seems to downplay any safety concerns….maybe their testing found that it’s better for the fifth wheel to separate? less chance of hitting someone else and more of a chance of injuring people in the truck if it were to separate? causing the truck to flip possibly?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by jasin1

i agree i should have made it clear that i would definitely have chains if i had a anderson hitch…i just found it interesting that the manufacturer seems to downplay any safety concerns….maybe their testing found that it’s better for the fifth wheel to separate? less chance of hitting someone else and more of a chance of injuring people in the truck if it were to separate? causing the truck to flip possibly?

That may well be their "thinking".... But, if someone operating that hitch system in Michigan has a safety chain failure, I'd suspect that person would be "on the hook to prove Andersen's thoughts as factual"... It would be a "whole bunch better" just to have a "known good safety chain system that keeps my butt out of court in the first place'.... (rather than a "ought to be ok with Grade 5 bolts but you can use Grade 8 if it makes you feel safer" approach).....

[wiredgeorge]

For giggles, consider that the OP drove off with the chains not unhooked and sheared the bolt holding the safety chains on the Andersen Ultimate hitch. Not sure how heavy his camper is or how fast he drove away. If I did it with my 5th wheel would the bolts have sheared? How do you test something like this? Any trailer with safety chains may have them or the attachment points fail... just no way to make blanket statements about likelihood of failure for safety chains. Calling the Andersen company cavalier may not be accurate; more likely couching their responses with an eye to potential legal issues. They should take a report like this very seriously but you can bet their spokes people on the phone are not going to reflect their likely concern regarding potential litigation.

[sourdough]

I don't think Andersen will comment on what the safety chains will or won't do....they're "safety" chains in their opinion so it's "nuff said". I'm sure there is some way to figure it out but grade 8 bolts have a tensile strength of 150,000 psi vs 120,000 psi for grade 5. What that means as far as the ability to "pull" x amount of pounds before breaking I don't know.

I think the circumstances would affect the Andersen just like it would a regular 5th wheel hitch. The pin coming out/off of the hitch would be the same as a regular 5th wheel but the Andersen would have chains vs none for the regular hitch. At that point it's either the tailgate holding it, breakaway locking the tires or ?? In a catastrophic situation like that it's going to be a crap shoot no matter what kind of hitch you have.

I'm not worried about the strength of the Andersen or "emergency braking" with it. Thanks to drivers in MS and AL I've gotten to lock it up twice (finally dialed the brake controller back even more for the disc brakes) and the hitch doesn't care. Now if I hit a tree or parked vehicle things would probably change but that would hold true for a regular 5th wheel hitch as well. I just keep my eye on the pin adapter as I think that's the weak point if there is one.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

That may well be their "thinking".... But, if someone operating that hitch system in Michigan has a safety chain failure, I'd suspect that person would be "on the hook to prove Andersen's thoughts as factual"... It would be a "whole bunch better" just to have a "known good safety chain system that keeps my butt out of court in the first place'.... (rather than a "ought to be ok with Grade 5 bolts but you can use Grade 8 if it makes you feel safer" approach).....

You can bet that if you are in court for a safety chain failure that the manufacturer (Andersen), the bolt manufacturer, the chain manufacturer, and anyone else the plaintiff attorney can think of will be your co-defendants. They always go for the deep pockets and I suspect theirs are deeper than yours. By the way get your own attorney, you can bet they will try to pass the blame to you.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

For giggles, consider that the OP drove off with the chains not unhooked and sheared the bolt holding the safety chains on the Andersen Ultimate hitch. Not sure how heavy his camper is or how fast he drove away. If I did it with my 5th wheel would the bolts have sheared? How do you test something like this? Any trailer with safety chains may have them or the attachment points fail... just no way to make blanket statements about likelihood of failure for safety chains. Calling the Andersen company cavalier may not be accurate; more likely couching their responses with an eye to potential legal issues. They should take a report like this very seriously but you can bet their spokes people on the phone are not going to reflect their likely concern regarding potential litigation.

George my 5th wheel is 10,100 and truck about 7,800 lbs. Only one safety chain was still connected. Speed was slow, just moving truck enough after unhooking to close the tailgate.

[wiredgeorge]

My point was, that the effect on the bolts will vary depending on the circumstance. What happened to the other bolt? Did you examine it?

[CedarCreekWoody]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

My point was, that the effect on the bolts will vary depending on the circumstance. What happened to the other bolt? Did you examine it?

Nothing happened to the other bolt. There was no chain attached to it. Yes, I examined it.

[flybouy]

I don't have the equipment discussed but I'll chime in on a general point. If I experienced an equipment failure like this I wouldn't "upgrade" or alter anything unless the mfg acknowledged their approval IN WRITING. I'm no attorney but I know from experience (many years working in the retail and restaurant industries as a director of construction and project management) that typically altering the OEM safety devices without some engineering involvment will result in you "owning" any results from that change. Just my experience.

[travelin texans]

I never was very confident in the 35lb aluminum tripod for a 14-16k 5th wheel & this conversation a hasn't help to build it up a bit!
No! I have no experience with the Anderson & would not buy it if I bought another 5er, just my opinion! If I wanted a clear truck bed I'd opt for the Goosebox hitch rather than the Anderson, it would require safety chains also being a gooseneck type hitch.

[wiredgeorge]

Well now that we have heard from all non-owners (with no first hand knowledge) and the legal team, perhaps this discussion has reached a logical conclusion. Thanks to everyone who had valuable input and well, thanks to those who didn't!

[CedarCreekWoody]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I don't have the equipment discussed but I'll chime in on a general point. If I experienced an equipment failure like this I wouldn't "upgrade" or alter anything unless the mfg acknowledged their approval IN WRITING. I'm no attorney but I know from experience (many years working in the retail and restaurant industries as a director of construction and project management) that typically altering the OEM safety devices without some engineering involvment will result in you "owning" any results from that change. Just my experience.

As I indicated in post 35 Andersen has responded in writing.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by CedarCreekWoody

As I indicated in post 35 Andersen has responded in writing.

Yes, they responded to YOU, I said if I had the experience of that failure I would want the response directed from the mfg to ME, i.e. direct not hearsay.

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I don't have the equipment discussed but I'll chime in on a general point. If I experienced an equipment failure like this I wouldn't "upgrade" or alter anything unless the mfg acknowledged their approval IN WRITING. I'm no attorney but I know from experience (many years working in the retail and restaurant industries as a director of construction and project management) that typically altering the OEM safety devices without some engineering involvment will result in you "owning" any results from that change. Just my experience.

Yep that was called “stay in your swim lane” at my previous employer. I didn’t make decisions in the electrical dept and they stayed out of my world.
Being cavalier about changing OEM components will lead you down the road to misery. If I wanted to change anything in my rotating equipment world I had to get it past my engineer and then sit before the make change committee to answer any question they could dream up, and they could dream up some incredible “what ifs”. That said I’m reluctant to “go cowboy” and just over rule what the OEM designed.
PullRite had the same attitude toward safety chains. They told me they weren’t required in Indiana so they didn’t offer them. There actually was no way to hang chains on the pinbox adapter. After about a year they contacted me offering me an adapter with chain hook capabilities.
I have no idea what the dynamics are with a fifth wheel that comes unhitched. I did have a 2 axle U HAUL trailer come unhitched and I don’t want to experience that again. If you look at maximum working load and breaking strength of chains, shackles, and add a links you may find that you have to get very strong to control an unhitched trailer.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by gearhead

Yep that was called “stay in your swim lane” at my previous employer. I didn’t make decisions in the electrical dept and they stayed out of my world.
Being cavalier about changing OEM components will lead you down the road to misery. If I wanted to change anything in my rotating equipment world I had to get it past my engineer and then sit before the make change committee to answer any question they could dream up, and they could dream up some incredible “what ifs”. That said I’m reluctant to “go cowboy” and just over rule what the OEM designed.
PullRite had the same attitude toward safety chains. They told me they weren’t required in Indiana so they didn’t offer them. There actually was no way to hang chains on the pinbox adapter. After about a year they contacted me offering me an adapter with chain hook capabilities.
I have no idea what the dynamics are with a fifth wheel that comes unhitched. I did have a 2 axle U HAUL trailer come unhitched and I don’t want to experience that again. If you look at maximum working load and breaking strength of chains, shackles, and add a links you may find that you have to get very strong to control an unhitched trailer.

Agreed, and I don't want to be the "test case" either. There are many things that I have modified/improved over the years but I won't mess with the basic gesign or operation of safety devices. I guess I've witnessed too many "I thought I was doing the right thing" go wrong and the first question is always "who approved this?".

[sourdough]

The answer to the current speculation lies here:

Andersen just responded to my question about using grade 8 bolts:

"Yes. Using a grade 8 bolt would be okay to use and is approved by the manufacturer."

Same as I've been told, so the quandary of changing the grade 5s to grade 8s, and what would happen if a failure occurred because it was not approved by the manufacturer, is moot. Now it's back to shear force, tensile strength and other what ifs.

[Bigt47]

When the bolt broke it appears as if that was a shear condition. Replaceing that bolt with a harder bolt, i.e. Grade 8, be careful as these bolts are designed for tension, not sure what the shear resistance is.

As one person mentioned, there could have been a flaw in the bolt the sherared off.