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03-02-2021, 07:32 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 3,031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo
Some day you will understand that dry pin weight is NOT a recommended pin weight! Dry pin is the weight of the unloaded 5er pin, it isn’t what the fully loaded pin is expected to weigh. Pin weight only goes up from dry, and should be between 20% and 25% of the 5er GVW.
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And someday when you become more familiar with RV trailer building instructions you will understand just why the RV trailer manufacturer MUST provide a recommended tongue weight.
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03-02-2021, 07:54 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Waco, Tx
Posts: 5,457
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God help me.
__________________
2015 Ford F350 DRW 6.7 Diesel XL
2020 Avalanche 313 RS
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03-05-2021, 04:41 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan
And someday when you become more familiar with RV trailer building instructions you will understand just why the RV trailer manufacturer MUST provide a recommended tongue weight.
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Well the only "Recommended" pin weight that I know of is the 20% to 25% of GVW of the 5er, there is no hard number "Recommended" pin weight. The number posted in brochures is the unloaded pin weight, and no way a number you can stay at as the 5er is loaded.
Can you cite an example of documentation on manufacturing that calls for a "Recommended" pin weight?
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
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03-05-2021, 09:55 PM
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#24
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 3,031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo
Well the only "Recommended" pin weight that I know of is the 20% to 25% of GVW of the 5er, there is no hard number "Recommended" pin weight. The number posted in brochures is the unloaded pin weight, and no way a number you can stay at as the 5er is loaded.
Can you cite an example of documentation on manufacturing that calls for a "Recommended" pin weight?
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FMVSS 571.120 paragraph; S10.2 On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.
That is part of the equation the trailer manufacturer MUST comply with during the vehicle certification process.
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03-06-2021, 06:47 AM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Waco, Tx
Posts: 5,457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan
FMVSS 571.120 paragraph; S10.2 On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.
That is part of the equation the trailer manufacturer MUST comply with during the vehicle certification process.
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Show me one document from a single RV trailer manufacturer that states "The Recommended Tongue Weight of This Trailer is" using those exact words.
They are going to give you an Axle Weight Rating and a GVWR, they may in the broadest terms suggest a percentage range that the tongue or pin weight might need to be.... and they most likely will publish what the tongue weight was as certified when leaving the factory... but you will never see a document that might wind up in court that states RECOMMENDED TONGUE WEIGHT.
One can certainly extrapolate the MAXIMUM LEGAL tongue / pin weight from the sum of GVWR minus GCAWR, but not the RECOMMENDED
__________________
2015 Ford F350 DRW 6.7 Diesel XL
2020 Avalanche 313 RS
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03-06-2021, 05:14 PM
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 3,031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javi
Show me one document from a single RV trailer manufacturer that states "The Recommended Tongue Weight of This Trailer is" using those exact words.
They are going to give you an Axle Weight Rating and a GVWR, they may in the broadest terms suggest a percentage range that the tongue or pin weight might need to be.... and they most likely will publish what the tongue weight was as certified when leaving the factory... but you will never see a document that might wind up in court that states RECOMMENDED TONGUE WEIGHT.
One can certainly extrapolate the MAXIMUM LEGAL tongue / pin weight from the sum of GVWR minus GCAWR, but not the RECOMMENDED
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If you will go back and read all the posts I've made in this thread you'll find the answer is there. For instance, in post #18 I said this; "The FMVSS says a recommended tongue weight MUST be published. They don't say how or where."
Tongue weight cannot be a given figure without proof. The proof will come from actual scaled weights. The vehicle manufacturer established a measured recommendation weight for vehicle certification purposes, it's the only time that weight is valid.
Here is a reference. Your hitch weight recommendation was 2575. That's a tad above 15% of the 15,000# GVWR.
https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2020-...-313rs-tr44606
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03-06-2021, 05:32 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan
If you will go back and read all the posts I've made in this thread you'll find the answer is there. For instance, in post #18 I said this; "The FMVSS says a recommended tongue weight MUST be published. They don't say how or where."
Tongue weight cannot be a given figure without proof. The proof will come from actual scaled weights. The vehicle manufacturer established a measured recommendation weight for vehicle certification purposes, it's the only time that weight is valid.
Here is a reference. Your hitch weight recommendation was 2575. That's a tad above 15% of the 15,000# GVWR.
https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2020-...-313rs-tr44606
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That number is the dry hitch weight, as what the pin carry’s as the 5er left the factory. That pin is 22% of the dry weight, likely the pin will be at least 22% of the GVW, so at full GVWR the pin will likely be about 3,300#.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
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03-06-2021, 06:15 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 3,031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo
That number is the dry hitch weight, as what the pin carry’s as the 5er left the factory. That pin is 22% of the dry weight, likely the pin will be at least 22% of the GVW, so at full GVWR the pin will likely be about 3,300#.
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The trailer manufacturers recommended tongue weight is a weight to verify vehicle certification. That means it has to be a whole weight not some hypothetical guesstimate.
In the reference above, all of the information for vehicle certification is not there. Unless you know how to look for it. So, using the numbers in the reference you deduct the recommended tongue weight from the GVWR and divide by two. That gives the absolute minimum for establishing the trailer's GAWRs. Washout having access to the vehicle certification label I would surmise the vehicle axles are certified to 7000# to satisfy the RVIA 10% tire reserve recommendation. Now add the recommended tongue weight to 14,000# and the answer falls above 15,000#. The bottom line is; it must not be less GVWR.
Remember, the recommended tongue weight is established to support GVWR and nothing else.
(A UVW/dry weight is never mentioned).
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03-06-2021, 06:27 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Waco, Tx
Posts: 5,457
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On my trailer and I suspect many of the newer models there is little storage over or behind the axles unless I choose to fill the galley and fresh tanks. The galley is directly over the front axle and the fresh is just behind it mostly over the rear axle.
Both the gray and black tanks within the 10" drop frame.
Even the fridge is in front of the axles.
So to ever this magical 15% I'd most likely have to empty nearly every thing from the fridge, basement, bedroom and bathroom, grey water and black tank plus fill the fresh water and probably the galley tank.
But hey... I MUST not have over 15%....
BTW, I towed it 250 miles from the dealer with nothing but the propane tanks and batteries in it, rode like crap.
__________________
2015 Ford F350 DRW 6.7 Diesel XL
2020 Avalanche 313 RS
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03-06-2021, 06:49 PM
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#30
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Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,695
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I think most experienced RV owners know how this works. We all know how the numbers work and how to calculate them. Cal, for some reason, continues to comment on "regulations", "FMVSS rules" etc. that don't actually address any of the comments made. Reading and real life are 2 different things IMO.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
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03-06-2021, 07:09 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 3,031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough
I think most experienced RV owners know how this works. We all know how the numbers work and how to calculate them. Cal, for some reason, continues to comment on "regulations", "FMVSS rules" etc. that don't actually address any of the comments made. Reading and real life are 2 different things IMO.
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I try to react to the question at hand.
What most are looking for can be found in my short statement in post #8.
Nothing is rock solid with tongue weights. For your application it will be what you make it.
However, vehicle certification is a one time act for all vehicles. It requires information that will satisfy minimum DOD vehicle safety regulations and standards. Therefor, RV trailer manufacturer recommended tongue weights are statutory for that application.
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05-29-2022, 08:33 AM
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#32
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevenforet
Looking at the new floor plan For Avalanche the 390DS. At a dry weight of 14300 and a unloaded pin at 2740. I’m interested in seeing what people are getting at the scales. I figured at 23% of 16500(gvwr) is 3795. Would that be an accurate assumption of what true pin weights could be does anyone have experience at the scales of their numbers
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As the OP has asked, I scaled my 390DS three weeks ago as follows:
Total Trailer weight( including the pin weight) 15,720#
Pin Weight: 3,480#(22.1% of total weight, not GVWR)
Tow Vehicle weight( stand alone with myself, wife and full tank of gas and small amount of payload) 7,360#
Total Weight 23,080
If loaded to GVWR of 16,500#, pin weight will likely be more than 23-24% since most payload is loaded in front of the trailer axles.
I hope this helps.
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06-07-2022, 07:32 PM
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#33
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Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2022
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 21
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Tow hauler true pin weights
So all of these numbers only apply to 5th wheels that are not toy haulers since most of the weight of a toy hauler is in the rear?
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06-07-2022, 07:44 PM
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#34
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Las Cruces
Posts: 4,665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by army1rob
So all of these numbers only apply to 5th wheels that are not toy haulers since most of the weight of a toy hauler is in the rear?
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THs are typically pretty pin heavy to start with, but yes, most of the weight in a THbis added behind the axles vs in front. Most THs don’t have much cargo space up front so you typically don’t see 500-700 lbs added to the pin, I’d still venture to say 300-400 extra wouldn’t be out of the ordinary. Also, THs have very large water tanks. Depending on their location, you could see pin weights jump if they’re filled.
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06-07-2022, 08:12 PM
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#35
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Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2022
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 21
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Thanks Bsmith.
I was being a little facetious in my comment because I see a lot of comment about 20-25% pin weight on heavy trailers such as mine, 20k gvwr, but being a toy hauler the majority of the loaded weight is in the rear. I actually weighed my trailer loaded with gear, sxs, and fuel, and found that my pin weight was 3087 lbs on a 18700 trailer. The pin weight from the factory was 3300k which I did not weigh empty so not sure how accurate that is. I did not add water since I usually fill close or at destination. Just wondering if these same guesstimates we see over and over are actually accurate. Guess it’s best to weigh your trailer but I am thinking 20-25% may be high for trailers that carry the majority of their weight in the rear.
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06-07-2022, 08:45 PM
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#36
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Las Cruces
Posts: 4,665
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Mine is advertised at a pin weight of 2235, and 12,376 dry. Loaded it is at 2800 pin and 14,000 so right at 20%. It jumps up 2950 and 14,500 if I fill the tanks, which is still 20%. I know a lot of people estimate higher and I would guess some trailers are closer to 25%, that’s just not my experience.
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06-08-2022, 01:19 PM
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#37
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Eugene
Posts: 314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmith0404
Mine is advertised at a pin weight of 2235, and 12,376 dry. Loaded it is at 2800 pin and 14,000 so right at 20%. It jumps up 2950 and 14,500 if I fill the tanks, which is still 20%. I know a lot of people estimate higher and I would guess some trailers are closer to 25%, that’s just not my experience.
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My toy hauler is 23% with full water and a hunting quad + motorcycle in the garage. Obviously 2 axle vs 3 axle will also change the ratio when loading the garage.
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