GFI Problem

Cascadian · 12-06-2012, 06:50 PM

I have a 2006 Everest 323K. There are three typical GFI's in it. One by the kitchen sink, one by the bathroom, sink, and one by the stove. All are typical GFIs with test and reset buttons. They work fine. However, on the island, the outside by the door, and one in the basement pass-thru that are regular type recepticles that have a blue sticker that state, "GFCI Protected." They are all dead. When checked with a plug-in circuit tester, it reads "Open Neutral." I opened each one and all the wires are correctly connected. Using a DVM, each is indeed getting a hot leg correctly (black wire). 120 vac is present between the ground and the black (hot) wire. No power between hot and neutral. I opened the power panel and all the neutral wires are OK on the neutral bus. At first I thought there may be a hidden GFI reset, but I am getting a hot leg. Also, the power panel has circuit breaker that has a hand-written label saying GFI. It indeed kills the power to the three recepticals in question. However, I'm thinking it is not bad since, again, there is hot-leg power at each receptical. I'm perplexed. Any suggestions? Thanks.

f6bits · 12-06-2012, 07:20 PM

Such an outlet is typically protected by a GFCI outlet upstream. If the upstream one pops, the downstream also shuts off. Since they’re in parallel, shorting the downstream one will pop the upstream one.

If you can trace the wires, or guess at their routing, you may find the culprit outlet and reset it. I’d run around and reset every outlet in the trailer and see if that fixes it.

There’s also a chance that one of the circuit breakers in your panel popped. Mine has one labelled GFI, but I’m not sure what it does or how it works.

Roller4Tan · 12-06-2012, 07:23 PM

I would find out which GFI feeds those outlets. Check for neutral pass thru from there. Check for voltage to neutral at the GFI.

ktmracer · 12-06-2012, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cascadian

I have a 2006 Everest 323K. There are three typical GFI's in it. One by the kitchen sink, one by the bathroom, sink, and one by the stove. All are typical GFIs with test and reset buttons. They work fine. However, on the island, the outside by the door, and one in the basement pass-thru that are regular type recepticles that have a blue sticker that state, "GFCI Protected." They are all dead. When checked with a plug-in circuit tester, it reads "Open Neutral." I opened each one and all the wires are correctly connected. Using a DVM, each is indeed getting a hot leg correctly (black wire). 120 vac is present between the ground and the black (hot) wire. No power between hot and neutral. I opened the power panel and all the neutral wires are OK on the neutral bus. At first I thought there may be a hidden GFI reset, but I am getting a hot leg. Also, the power panel has circuit breaker that has a hand-written label saying GFI. It indeed kills the power to the three recepticals in question. However, I'm thinking it is not bad since, again, there is hot-leg power at each receptical. I'm perplexed. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Looks like your troubleshooting has identified the problem, an open neutral somewhere. GFI tripping will NOT leave an open neutral, only interupt the hot leg. If your wiring is trailer typical it uses the self contained outlets with what I call a "vampire" connector. wires lay in the back of the connector, then the back is pressed to the front and a v shaped tang pierces the wires to make contact. The fact that 3 show open neutral makes me think there is

a) a vampire connector splice connector somewhere that is bad
b) one upstream outlet is designed for 1 cable in, 2 out and the "out" wiring has a bad contact on the white.
c) The GFI that feeds the downstream outlets wasn't connected properly and has a neutral not connected for the downstream outlets.

Every trailer GFI I have seen is a regular sticks and bricks GFI in a outlet box. First thing I'd do is find out which GFI interupts the hot leg for the outlets. Then pull that GFI and HOPE that you find a bad neutral connection. If that isn't it, it's likely one of the downstream vampire connectors and that is going to be much more difficult to find the culprit. You can't see a bad connection in them visually and as far as I know, if you take one apart, they really can't/shouldn't be reused.

ktmracer · 12-06-2012, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f6bits

Such an outlet is typically protected by a GFCI outlet upstream. If the upstream one pops, the downstream also shuts off. Since they’re in parallel, shorting the downstream one will pop the upstream one.

If you can trace the wires, or guess at their routing, you may find the culprit outlet and reset it. I’d run around and reset every outlet in the trailer and see if that fixes it.

There’s also a chance that one of the circuit breakers in your panel popped. Mine has one labelled GFI, but I’m not sure what it does or how it works.

since there is 120V to ground a breaker or GFI has NOT tripped unless there is a GROSS miswiring. GFI and breakers interupt the HOT (black) lead ONLY, NEVER a neutral or ground.

f6bits · 12-07-2012, 08:29 AM

Thanks for the details on how GFCI works. Uh, which one is the black lead? The left, or the right blade (when looking at the outlet with ground at the bottom)?

So…to the OP, did those outlets ever work?

Roller4Tan · 12-07-2012, 09:28 AM

Uh, which one is the black lead? The left, or the right blade (when looking at the outlet with ground at the bottom)?

F6Bits: The Line and Load should be embossed on the GFI outlet. The Line side is the black/Line lead that comes from the breaker. Without looking at one, I'm not sure if it's left or right.

kimanderson98642 · 12-07-2012, 10:52 AM

I love the experience and knowledge that is available in this forum. This is why I read it Daily. I've learned so much.

Cascadian · 12-07-2012, 06:25 PM

Well, all three bad recepticles have a good hot leg. Took them out of the walls and they all have their wiring OK. DVM tests ok...and they all go cold when I turn off the breaker. It seems that the three "real" GFCIs are on a different run, since when I turn off the breaker to the three recepticles in question, the three real GFI recepticles (the ones with the trip/reset buttons) are still energized. So, maybe the recepticles with the stickers are not real GFIs. But still, why are they not working. As stated, the neutral bus bar behind the panel, all have good connections...so all I can think of is that the neutral is actually broken somewhere in the wall. The wiring seems to be from the panel to the basement recepticle (it has three sets of three wires (3 white, three black, and three bare grounds). The outside and island have one set of three each...so I am assuming that they branch off the basement which is their feed. Oh well...looks like I have to go and spend $$$ at the RV service place...

Whether or not they ever worked, I don't know. I picked up the rig in August and never really used it except to stay in it during transport to my first real stop. After a few nights, I needed to plug in my block heater on my diesel...that's when I realized the outlet outside was dead. Then checking I found the other two were also dead (the basement and the island). The only thing they all have in common, beside them being dead, is that thet all have the specious blue (GFCI protected) sticker. But, in reality, I can't find any real GFCI protection. Again, oh well...

ktmracer · 12-07-2012, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cascadian

Well, all three bad recepticles have a good hot leg. Took them out of the walls and they all have their wiring OK. DVM tests ok...and they all go cold when I turn off the breaker. It seems that the three "real" GFCIs are on a different run, since when I turn off the breaker to the three recepticles in question, the three real GFI recepticles (the ones with the trip/reset buttons) are still energized. So, maybe the recepticles with the stickers are not real GFIs. But still, why are they not working. As stated, the neutral bus bar behind the panel, all have good connections...so all I can think of is that the neutral is actually broken somewhere in the wall. The wiring seems to be from the panel to the basement recepticle (it has three sets of three wires (3 white, three black, and three bare grounds). The outside and island have one set of three each...so I am assuming that they branch off the basement which is their feed. Oh well...looks like I have to go and spend $$$ at the RV service place...

can you see into the basement or underbelly?? I'm going to guess that somewhere the main feed wire goes to a vampire splice that has one wire in, two or more out, and at least one of the "out" wires didn't get the neutral connected when spliced. But then again, that all it is, a guess.

Cascadian · 12-07-2012, 06:35 PM

Can't see into the bottom; it has a belly pan. Also, the basement is sealed. I think the problem is from the panel to the basement recepticle, because it has the three sets of wires (one set in, two sets out). Thanks.

Cascadian · 12-11-2012, 03:52 PM

The basement bad recepticle seems to be the junction for the other two. I'm going to change it out with a "real" recepticle (one that is not a mash the wire into a pinched blade type) and see what happens. Thanks all...

Cascadian · 12-14-2012, 06:38 PM

Took a while, but found out that the breaker labled GFI did control one of the real GFIs, the one in the lavatory. Since I checked the two kiychen ones because they were in my line-of-site, I "assumed" that the lav was the same...NOT! So, the breaker labled GFI controls the lav GFI recepticle (the one with a reset/test button) as well as the island, the basement, and the outside outlets. Now I have a starting point. But here in Prescott, it started storming...so I'm going to wait until I arrive in Quartzsite to start working on it. Thanks again!

ktmracer · 12-15-2012, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cascadian

Took a while, but found out that the breaker labled GFI did control one of the real GFIs, the one in the lavatory. Since I checked the two kiychen ones because they were in my line-of-site, I "assumed" that the lav was the same...NOT! So, the breaker labled GFI controls the lav GFI recepticle (the one with a reset/test button) as well as the island, the basement, and the outside outlets. Now I have a starting point. But here in Prescott, it started storming...so I'm going to wait until I arrive in Quartzsite to start working on it. Thanks again!

Now that you found the source, I'd do two checks.

1) pull the outlet it should be a regular GFI, and check the wirig connections. Very possible the downstream feed wire neutral is loose on the outlet.
2) GFI outlets are known to fail. I've had several fail in our house, usually cut off power downstream. I don't suspect that in your case since IIRC the feed is hot but no neutral connection.

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