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05-17-2023, 07:23 AM
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#1
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7
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Missing Ground - Converter Chassis
Hi everyone, long-time lurker on the forum but this is my first post. I began having issues with my converter in my Cougar (2022 26RBSWE) a couple weeks ago. When I pulled out the power centre to get at the converter, I noticed there’s no chassis ground wire - looks like there was nothing installed from the factory. Of course I’m going to contact Keystone to ask about it, but is there something I’m missing here (I should definitely have a chassis ground for the converter, right)?
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05-17-2023, 08:28 AM
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#2
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Site Team
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,841
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Are you asking about the CONVERTER or are you asking about the POWER CENTER ????
The CONVERTER "AC side" has three wires: hot/black, neutral/white and ground/green. The "DC side" only has two wires: negative/black and positive/red.
The POWER CENTER (30 amp) has three 10 gauge input wires (from the shore power cord), hot/black, neutral/white and ground/green. The black is connected to the circuit breaker buss bar, the white is connected to the neutral bar and the green is connected to the ground bar.
If you have a 50 amp POWER CENTER, then you'll have four 6 gauge wires from the shore power cord. line 1/black, line 2/red, neutral/white and ground/green. They are connected to the POWER CENTER similar to the 30 amp connections above, with the addition of the second load line (red) connected to the second circuit breaker buss bar.
On the 50 amp POWER CENTER, the same "three AC input wires" and the same "two DC output wires" are found on the CONVERTER. The CONVERTER is connected to the POWER CENTER the same way on the 50 amp and on the 30 amp system, with the exception that the CONVERTER leads "must be connected on the buss bar on which the CON circuit breaker is mounted.
The CONVERTER is then connected to the POWER CENTER as shown in this diagram:
__________________
John
2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
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05-17-2023, 08:33 AM
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#3
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7
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Wow, thanks for the quick reply! My apologies, I should have given more information to start. It’s a WFCO-9855 converter (so deck mount, standalone). I’m referring to the ground lug on the converter enclosure. The lug is just barely visible on the bottom corner of the converter closest to the camera in the photo.
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05-17-2023, 09:08 AM
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#4
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Site Team
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Modesto
Posts: 20,235
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FWIW I have almost always seen a ground from the case of the converter to the frame.
Did you buy new? If not previous owner may have changed the converter out and didn’t bother to connect it. It can be a PITA.
__________________
2012 Copper Canyon 273FWRET being towed by a 1994 Ford F350 CC,LB,Dually diesel.
Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.
Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
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05-17-2023, 10:24 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Wickenburg
Posts: 3,271
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It's odd to see a 26RBSWE with a stand-alone converter instead of a WF-8955 with integrated converter.
__________________
2019 Cougar 26RBSWE
2019 Ford F-250
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05-17-2023, 10:41 AM
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#6
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7
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I actually ordered this thing new and got it last year, it’s my first TT. I will say when I pulled out the power centre to check the converter I was a bit surprised - sawdust everywhere along with a bit of styrofoam from fabrication. I was surprised the converter fan didn’t get choked off with all the debris in there (maybe it did, hence my converter issues). I’ve got a replacement 9855-AD I’m installing soon, but I’m holding off until i figure out whether I should run a new ground…don’t feel like having to get in behind that power centre twice With this being my first TT I’m a little intimidated just because it’s so hard to get at everything (ie, if I’ve got to run a new ground). Thanks a lot for your input on this guys, I really appreciate it! I’ll keep ya posted on what kind of response I get from Keystone.
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05-17-2023, 11:00 AM
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#7
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Site Team
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Modesto
Posts: 20,235
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Since ALL grounds are common and connected at the frame, you would probably be ok with a jumper to the ground bar.
__________________
2012 Copper Canyon 273FWRET being towed by a 1994 Ford F350 CC,LB,Dually diesel.
Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.
Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
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05-17-2023, 11:29 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Wickenburg
Posts: 3,271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berta90
sawdust everywhere along with a bit of styrofoam from fabrication. I was surprised the converter fan didn’t get choked off with all the debris in there (maybe it did, hence my converter issues).
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Yeah. You're also going to want to unscrew the grill under the fridge and vacuum out your furnace cubby as well, or you'll be looking at one or two sail-switch cleanings/replacements within warranty period. It was a year before I stopped finding sawdust sprinkled all over my pantry shelves. And here's [LINK] a photo I took a few weeks ago of the circuit board inside a sealed box inside my A/C cavity in the ceiling.
Keystone: we're a workshop, not a cleanroom!
Here's hoping you enjoy your 26RBSWE. DW and I sure do.
__________________
2019 Cougar 26RBSWE
2019 Ford F-250
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05-17-2023, 11:31 AM
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#9
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Site Team
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Modesto
Posts: 20,235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LHaven
Yeah. You're also going to want to unscrew the grill under the fridge and vacuum out your furnace cubby as well, or you'll be looking at one or two sail-switch cleanings/replacements within warranty period. It was a year before I stopped finding sawdust sprinkled all over my pantry shelves. And here's [LINK] a photo I took a few weeks ago of the circuit board inside a sealed box inside my A/C cavity in the ceiling.
Keystone: we're a workshop, not a cleanroom!
Here's hoping you enjoy your 26RBSWE. DW and I sure do.
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It isn’t just Keystone….
__________________
2012 Copper Canyon 273FWRET being towed by a 1994 Ford F350 CC,LB,Dually diesel.
Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.
Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
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05-17-2023, 11:42 AM
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#10
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7
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Haha it’s funny you mention the furnace - that was the first issue! DW and I were camping (plugged in) and the furnace started kicking out. It would do some/all of the purge, then shut off before ignition. I automatically assumed sail switch and got in under the fridge to find out that the furnace is a real treat to access. The wires weren’t even long enough to pull out without cutting them! Of course we were out camping and I didn’t have wire to splice in. Ran to the store and came back a few hours later, all prepped with cutters and a couple spools of wire. Tried the furnace once more before yanking it and it worked! Cycled a few times and all good. Cautiously put the panel back, then we boondocked a few days later. I was glued to the power monitor as I always am when boondocking (relaxing, I know!) and noticed I wasn’t getting much back into the batteries with the generator. Lo and behold, I trended back and saw the batt volatage had been low, even the week before when we were plugged in. I think the bad converter let the furnace draw the batteries way down until it wouldn’t run anymore. Fingers crossed that the converter ends up being the culprit for the furnace issue! Lesson learned next time I have an issue with a 12V appliance, even when plugged in…
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05-17-2023, 11:50 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Wickenburg
Posts: 3,271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckster57
It isn’t just Keystone….
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Yup! But when you can't be with the one you love, you gotta love the one you're with!
__________________
2019 Cougar 26RBSWE
2019 Ford F-250
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05-17-2023, 12:00 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Wickenburg
Posts: 3,271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berta90
Haha it’s funny you mention the furnace
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I'm sure I'll laugh about it someday... but I just this Monday finally got mine definitively repaired [LINK] after over a year of working intermittently. This one wasn't a manufacturing defect, but hidden rodent damage (though the same wire was also impaled on the sharp end of a screw at the factory). So my next basic recommendation is to scour your underbelly looking for unplugged access points, and to plug them up with copper wool and Tomcat Rodent Block foam. It can save you weeks of touchy repair jobs.
__________________
2019 Cougar 26RBSWE
2019 Ford F-250
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05-17-2023, 12:13 PM
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#13
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7
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Son of a gun! I just read that thread…what a pain! Thanks for the tip; I store my trailer out in a field so
I’m sure it’s an appealing home. Here’s the real question - did you get the mouse!? Lol
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05-17-2023, 01:30 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Wickenburg
Posts: 3,271
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The first sign I had of the mouse was a front running light going out after I'd had the rig just about a year. Then one of the bedroom lights (right behind the same front cap). I rewired both of those, and left some poison bait inside the cap and above the ceiling. Meanwhile, we enjoyed two years of tiny beetles dropping onto the bed all night whenever we took it out to play (emerging from the palo verde beans the mouse had stored in the ceiling). We kept having beetles (therefore, mice) until I had the underside wooled and foamed, then one more season of beetles (they gestate for half a year), after which thankfully it stopped.
__________________
2019 Cougar 26RBSWE
2019 Ford F-250
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05-18-2023, 04:43 AM
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#15
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7
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Thought I’d give an update I received from Keystone this morning:
“Thank you for contacting Keystone RV. In regards to your email, there will only be a ground wire going from the distribution panel to the chassis. The converters only have charge wires hooked to them which is why you will not see the ground wire.”
Seems kind of odd to me, but at least it’s an answer.
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05-18-2023, 04:47 AM
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#16
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Site Team
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Modesto
Posts: 20,235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berta90
Thought I’d give an update I received from Keystone this morning:
“Thank you for contacting Keystone RV. In regards to your email, there will only be a ground wire going from the distribution panel to the chassis. The converters only have charge wires hooked to them which is why you will not see the ground wire.”
Seems kind of odd to me, but at least it’s an answer.
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More likely another cost cutting measure.
__________________
2012 Copper Canyon 273FWRET being towed by a 1994 Ford F350 CC,LB,Dually diesel.
Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.
Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
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05-18-2023, 04:51 AM
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#17
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2023
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7
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Yeah no kidding eh? Seems like they’ll do a lot to save money - not that I’d blame them up to a point, but some of the shortcuts the manufacturers take seem crazy to me!
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05-18-2023, 06:25 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Henniker
Posts: 2,015
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One thing I have seen a lot in my recent new camper search is the build quality and material differences between pre-Covid, during-Covid and post-Covid builds. I particularly noticed a LOT of issues in units built from late 2020 through early to mid 2022. Due to staffing issues, supply chain constraints and the "explosion" in demand, units built in that time frame seem to have a higher rate of issues than what we would normally expect.
Personally, I would feel better if the converter was grounded itself rather than relying on another system component to provide grounding.
__________________
Rob & Amy
2019 Passport 240BH SL (current)
2024 Cougar 29BHL (on order, due early May)
2022 Ford F250 7.3L Godzilla Crew Cab 4x4
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05-18-2023, 09:55 AM
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#19
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Site Team
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,841
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Build quality, or at least the perception of build quality is down significantly in recent years... My Grandpa used to comment, "They just don't make anything as good as they used to"... But, when I was a kid, I don't remember ever going on a family vacation that we didn't spend at least a day, stuck somewhere to repair a water pump or a generator or a starter.... And, Dad used to complain that he NEVER got more than 12,000 miles out of a set of tires... They were bias ply, BTW...
Trailers are the same. Our Holiday Rambler never saw a service center for a warranty repair. It was a 1993 and our Airstream, after getting the rear bumper storage compartment fixed, never went back to a dealership.
These days, not so much, eh ????
Now as for the "outside grounding wire" on WFCO converters.... When you consider the fact that the green wire in the power cord is connected to the converter chassis (internally) and to the ground buss in the power center, which is connected to the trailer chassis ground, then an "extra bare wire ground from that lug to the chassis" is accomplishing the same thing "electrically" that is already being accomplished by the green wire and the buss bar....
To me, it's sort of like screwing an extra wire on a "double insulated power hand tool" to make it safer... Electrically, that task is being accomplished "in a different way" and the extra wire simply isn't needed, except to create an impression of "being safer"...
__________________
John
2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
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05-18-2023, 10:54 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 4,804
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Never realized that WFCO is short for World Friendship Company …kinda odd name for an electronics manufacturer …surprised they didn’t throw baby ducks or puppy’s in the title
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
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