Problem with WFCO WF-8930/50

[Harleyreb]

Recently had an electrical problem with my 2020 Cougar 27RES. Most likely a ground/neutral mix-up somewhere. Replaced microwave, fireplace, convertor, and soon the water heater.

I bought all new breakers for the WFCO WF-8930/50. I put in the dual 50 amp breaker, and pulled all other breakers out. Running off a 50 amp generator, I tested the breaker bar on each side of the 50 amp breaker, and both read 120V.

Then I added the new 15 amp breaker for the fireplace. I read 120v ac on the other end, and a tester on the plug that the fireplace plugs into reads 120V. But when I plug a fan into that same plug, it does not work.

Adding another breaker to the box, then the voltage on the fireplace breaker drops to around 10v ac.

All new breakers are the Siemans QP breakers, same as what was there before.

Any ideas what is going on? Is there an overload circuit somewhere I have not found? All AC equipment has been unplugged from their respective outlets to minimize their affects.

Any help would be appreciated as to what to look for next.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by Harleyreb

Recently had an electrical problem with my 2020 Cougar 27RES. Most likely a ground/neutral mix-up somewhere. Replaced microwave, fireplace, convertor, and soon the water heater.

I bought all new breakers for the WFCO WF-8930/50. I put in the dual 50 amp breaker, and pulled all other breakers out. Running off a 50 amp generator, I tested the breaker bar on each side of the 50 amp breaker, and both read 120V.

Then I added the new 15 amp breaker for the fireplace. I read 120v ac on the other end, and a tester on the plug that the fireplace plugs into reads 120V. But when I plug a fan into that same plug, it does not work.

Adding another breaker to the box, then the voltage on the fireplace breaker drops to around 10v ac.

All new breakers are the Siemans QP breakers, same as what was there before.

Any ideas what is going on? Is there an overload circuit somewhere I have not found? All AC equipment has been unplugged from their respective outlets to minimize their affects.

Any help would be appreciated as to what to look for next.

what was the actual original symptoms that led you to replace everything? i wouldn’t throw away the old breakers ? breakers are usually good or bad but dont fail often…and all of them failing at once would be unheard of…sounds like a missing neutral somewhere…

are you using a bonded generator or using a bonding plug? and an ems?

i’d start with one circuit at a time and get it to work then move to the next…sounds like you ripped everything out and may have rewired it wrong at some point
all those things failing sounds more like a miswired shore connection that blew everything in the trailer to me

[Dacheedah]

I would begin by measuring the amps on each leg of the generator to assure you have 50 amps on each leg. You may also need to make up a lug to bond the ground to neutral on the generator and test again.

[Alpine Custom Upgrade]

Originally Posted by Dacheedah

I would begin by measuring the amps on each leg of the generator to assure you have 50 amps on each leg. You may also need to make up a lug to bond the ground to neutral on the generator and test again.

That would take a load coil or something that pulls 50 amps to get a 50 amp reading.

[Dacheedah]

You can use a current clamp accessory that will scale down the amps and give a good reading.

[Alpine Custom Upgrade]

Originally Posted by Dacheedah

You can use a current clamp accessory that will scale down the amps and give a good reading.

Sure, as long as there is something pulling 50 amps to measure. I use an Ideal 61-702 with its wrap-around clamp which is a Current Transformer that converts the amps being pulled into a readable number for the display almost every day but it reads ZERO amps if there is no load. Been doing this for 40 years but maybe I am mistaken. Try it your way and let me know how that works for ya.

[Dacheedah]

This is the point I would consider hardwiring an outlet to the breaker with nothing else connected and run an extension cord to test.

[Harleyreb]

Thanks for all the replies. I am using a Westinghouse WGen9500DF generator. I just got a service bulletin from Westinghouse with instructions on changing the bonded jumper wire. This gen is bonded, so do I float the neutal instead?

The problem started when I used a 30 amp cord to a 30 amp breaker on my house. I used a 30amp to 50amp adapter to the RV. Apparently the 30 amp cord was questionable. Once I flipped the house breaker on, we heard a few pops inside the RV. The microwave, the fireplace, and I believe the water heater is toast.

At this time, I have removed all of the white neutral wires on the WFCO WF-8930/50 distribution panel, except for the supply power, and one neutral wire going to the fireplace, whose 15amp breaker is the only one in the distribution panel.

Running the generator, I see 240 across the red and black, and 120 from each leg to neutral. Once I flip the 15 amp breaker to the fireplace, the voltage goes to nothing. The wiring to the fireplace goes directly to an 120 outlet box with nothing plugged into it.

Not knowing much about the generator, is this something to do with being bonded or not?

I finally have an electrician coming out next week, but it would be nice to figure this out before then.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by Harleyreb

Thanks for all the replies. I am using a Westinghouse WGen9500DF generator. I do not know if it is bonded generator or not. I just got a service bulletin from Westinghouse with instructions on changing the bonded jumper wire, but have not yet removed the alternator cover to investigate if there is one or not.

The problem started when I used a 30 amp cord to a 30 amp breaker on my house. I used a 30amp to 50amp adapter to the RV. Apparently the 30 amp cord was questionable. Once I flipped the house breaker on, we heard a few pops inside the RV. The microwave, the fireplace, and I believe the water heater is toast.

At this time, I have removed all of the white neutral wires on the WFCO WF-8930/50 distribution panel, except for the supply power, and one neutral wire going to the fireplace, whose 15amp breaker is the only one in the distribution panel.

Running the generator, I see 240 across the red and black, and 120 from each leg to neutral. Once I flip the 15 amp breaker to the fireplace, the voltage goes to nothing. The wiring to the fireplace goes directly to an 120 outlet box with nothing plugged into it.

Not knowing much about the generator, is this something to do with being bonded or not?

I finally have an electrician coming out next week, but it would be nice to figure this out before then.

from my prior post that is what i thought happened…it sounds like you plugged it into a 30 amp 240 volt outlet..a 30 amp rv outlet is only 120 volts…hopefully that’s all the damage from it..It sounds like you should probably let an rv service person or the electrician deal with it although some electricians may not fully understand rv systems.

…separately…you want to keep the bonding wire in the generator for your rv and remove it if using for your house

[Harleyreb]

got it, thx. I'll wait for the rv electrician.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by jasin1

from my prior post that is what i thought happened…it sounds like you plugged it into a 30 amp 240 volt outlet..a 30 amp rv outlet is only 120 volts…hopefully that’s all the damage from it..It sounds like you should probably let an rv service person or the electrician deal with it although some electricians may not fully understand rv systems.

…separately…you want to keep the bonding wire in the generator for your rv and remove it if using for your house

^^^^This is what it sounds like happened. Need to check that 30A outlet you plugged into with a meter, I bet you see 120vac on 2 legs. And yes, wait on that electrician, electricity can severely hurt or kill you.

[bobbecky]

Originally Posted by Harleyreb

Thanks for all the replies. I am using a Westinghouse WGen9500DF generator. I just got a service bulletin from Westinghouse with instructions on changing the bonded jumper wire. This gen is bonded, so do I float the neutal instead?

The problem started when I used a 30 amp cord to a 30 amp breaker on my house. I used a 30amp to 50amp adapter to the RV. Apparently the 30 amp cord was questionable. Once I flipped the house breaker on, we heard a few pops inside the RV. The microwave, the fireplace, and I believe the water heater is toast.

At this time, I have removed all of the white neutral wires on the WFCO WF-8930/50 distribution panel, except for the supply power, and one neutral wire going to the fireplace, whose 15amp breaker is the only one in the distribution panel.

Running the generator, I see 240 across the red and black, and 120 from each leg to neutral. Once I flip the 15 amp breaker to the fireplace, the voltage goes to nothing. The wiring to the fireplace goes directly to an 120 outlet box with nothing plugged into it.

Not knowing much about the generator, is this something to do with being bonded or not?

I finally have an electrician coming out next week, but it would be nice to figure this out before then.

I think the problem you are seeing is an open neutral going in to the trailer. That would explain why your voltage goes wonky when you put load on one leg. Possibly, your 30 amp house outlet was miss wired, and when your burned up things in your rig, you burned up the neutral, and that will definitely caused the missing neutral symptoms you are seeing. I would recommend not applying any power to the rig until the missing neutral problem is resolved.
As for the generator being neutral and ground connected, it should remain bonded, which is the same configuration you will see when properly connected to a utility service on your house of any meter panel or pedestal.

[Harleyreb]

Well, just got back from crawling underneath the RV and cutting into the underbelly. Couldn't wait for a technician to come. Found out that the smart guys who built this RV, ran the 50 amp power cord between the board that the water heater sits on and the metal chassis. The cable ran underneath and back out, then up to the distribution panel. The pinched/mangled cable definitely shows that the neutral now has contact with the chassis ground.

All I need to do now is cut/rewire the power cord to the distribution panel, eliminating the part pinched under the floorboard.

Wondering if this is covered by insurance......

Thanks for all the help.

[sourdough]

Don't do anything without taking a lot of good pictures. Insurance would probably cover but you should have a structural warranty good for 3 years. While not a "structural" failure technically, I would push it as one because they ran the cable between the floor and chassis...both structural and caused this meltdown. I would push hard on that although insurance may be the easier path.

[jasin1]

[QUOTE=Harleyreb;530943]Well, just got back from crawling underneath the RV and cutting into the underbelly. Couldn't wait for a technician to come. Found out that the smart guys who built this RV, ran the 50 amp power cord between the board that the water heater sits on and the metal chassis. The cable ran underneath and back out, then up to the distribution panel. The pinched/mangled cable definitely shows that the neutral now has contact with the chassis ground.

All I need to do now is cut/rewire the power cord to the distribution panel, eliminating the part pinched under the floorboard.

Wondering if this is covered by insurance......

Thanks for all the help.[/QUOTE


The line voltage ( hot ) wire must be touching but that should have just tripped the breaker immediately…the neutral touching by itself while definitely not right would not cause the problem as the neutrals and grounds are bonded at the house and pedestal normally and should be at your generator…it would just have two bonded locations which is unsafe but wouldn’t cause the voltage issues now if the neutral is severed in half then that could cause voltage fluctuations…have you also verified that your 30 amp outlet is wired correctly? Because that could cause all kinds of violent electrical problems to show up…for instance if the neutral was rubbing the frame for a long time prior and now you plug it into a 240 outlet that neutral would be getting a 120 volts to ground and have a large arc and sparks flying….not saying your wrong but I’d check everything and make sure the neutral didn’t sever because it blew from 240 volts

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by jasin1

The line voltage ( hot ) wire must be touching but that should have just tripped the breaker immediately…the neutral touching by itself while definitely not right would not cause the problem as the neutrals and grounds are bonded at the house and pedestal normally and should be at your generator…it would just have two bonded locations which is unsafe but wouldn’t cause the voltage issues now if the neutral is severed in half then that could cause voltage fluctuations…have you also verified that your 30 amp outlet is wired correctly? Because that could cause all kinds of violent electrical problems to show up…for instance if the neutral was rubbing the frame for a long time prior and now you plug it into a 240 outlet that neutral would be getting a 120 volts to ground and have a large arc and sparks flying….not saying your wrong but I’d check everything and make sure the neutral didn’t sever because it blew from 240 volts

^^^ This is my thoughts as well. There just isn't a reason for 120 VAC to be on the neutral if plugged into a 120 VAC "RV 30 amp outlet"... On the other hand, if the trailer was plugged into a "NON RV 30 amp 240 VAC outlet", then the neutral (which is connected to the ground) would become "hot" and not protected from burning up/melting inside the trailer wiring. The 14 ga ROMEX would definitely "burn up" before the 6 ga trailer 50 amp cord even got hot enough to notice.

I still go back to the problem being "self induced" by plugging in a 30:50 amp adapter to the shore power cord and then plugging that into a 240 VAC 30 amp plug (dryer plug) rather than a 120 VAC 30 amp (RV plug)....

There is "no reason" for the neutral to "burn because it shorted out to chassis ground" as it is "eventually, down the line" connected to chassis ground. I believe the reason it melted is because it was, temporarily, plugged into an outlet that supplied the second "hot leg" to the neutral <accidentally> ....