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Old 05-20-2023, 07:15 PM   #21
wiredgeorge
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In post #4 I suggested replacing the outlet with a residential type and running coax to the breakers and putting the fireplace on a separate breaker which seems like the thing to do since the fireplace has a heating element that draws substantial juice. I imagine that if the fireplace was installed from the factory, that is perhaps how it would be installed but don't know as I have never owned a fireplace. My home had those bladed receptacles and after a few years, one would have a wire loosen and I saw one blacken. Found the problem and replaced all of them. Doing that alone would not make the rest on a circuit with several outlets and that is why I suggested a dedicated circuit.
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Old 05-20-2023, 08:57 PM   #22
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Not piling on but feel it is also prudent to remind everyone that "replacing the blade type outlet with a quality box and a "screw type terminal outlet" does NOTHING to the "daisy chain outlets further up the line"....

It's a "false sense of security" to think that replacing that single outlet with a safer one" will do anything for the rest of the outlets and wiring connections on that circuit....

When all is said and done, whether the fire started behind the fireplace in "that cheap outlet" or in the outlet the TV is plugged into (on the same circuit, just one outlet further down the line) is pretty much irrelevant....

What is relevant is that there are numerous blade type outlets used throughout the trailer. Changing out the "one for the fireplace" and not changing out the rest on that same circuit will not do much for safety, considering all that "increased amperage" is still flowing through "knife connections" along the entire circuit.....

So, don't just "focus on the outlet behind the fireplace" but consider the entire line of ROMEX, outlets along the circuit run from the circuit breaker to the LAST OUTLET in the daisy chain.... EVERY one of them is carrying the entire load applied to the circuit back to the circuit breaker....
I agree that every one between the fireplace and the breaker box is seeing the entire load. But the ones beyond the fireplace to the end of the line are seeing only the loads plugged into themselves and the ones after them. This is basic Kirschoff's Law.
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Old 05-21-2023, 06:04 AM   #23
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I agree that every one between the fireplace and the breaker box is seeing the entire load. But the ones beyond the fireplace to the end of the line are seeing only the loads plugged into themselves and the ones after them. This is basic Kirschoff's Law.
This one will surely evoke some discussion to clarify. The wife reminded me it’s to get ready for church. I’ll be back (Arnold Schwarzenegger quote).
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Old 05-21-2023, 08:58 AM   #24
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[QUOTE=firestation12;536348]As the saying goes, you have a right to your own opinions but not to your own facts. Much of rule making is not only influenced by science, but often is modified and updated because of lessons learned from unforeseen accidents sometimes involving loss of life. Plane crashes, failed space launches, fire, explosions, car crashes, electrocutions, equipment failures, building collapse, all have contributed to safer standard of design, manufacturing, and function. Encouraging someone to make their RV into electrical test lab in violation of a known standard is dangerous behavior.
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“That fireplace and the TV and other electronic devices can run all day on that 15 amp circuit. It would be prudent to pull out the receptacle to verify that the wires are firmly attached to the connectors.”
This would be similar to telling a 3/4 ton truck owner “yeah buddy, you can pull that 16k 5er all day long fully loaded with no problem. It would be prudent to first kick the tires before ya light the fires”.

Try posting the above towing advice on this forum and see the response.
The reason I posted this is because our rig has the fireplace below the TV and it's all connected to a 15 amp circuit, and this is as designed and built at the factory. What ever size circuit, 15 amp, 20 amp, or larger, is designed to handle the full load rating. The way some of these discussion progress, these RV's are so dangerous, no one should even think of sleeping in them when connected to electric power. It's also not good advice to encourage people to rewire or add circuits if they are not qualified in electric wiring. Too many homes burn down because of faulty homeowner wiring.
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Old 05-21-2023, 09:02 AM   #25
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I agree that every one between the fireplace and the breaker box is seeing the entire load. But the ones beyond the fireplace to the end of the line are seeing only the loads plugged into themselves and the ones after them. This is basic Kirschoff's Law.
The intent of my post was to create an awareness of the danger of just adding one screw terminal outlet for a specific location on a "daisy chain circuit" and feeling a false sense of security that the entire circuit is safe because of that addition. In a daisy chain circuit, EVERY connection from the load back to the source (circuit breaker panel) feels the entire load of the circuit. So, unless someone "knows how Keystone wired their specific trailer" they really don't know if the fireplace outlet or the TV outlet is "last in line".... To be safe, ALL outlets on a daisy chain circuit should be "considered to carry the entire load of the circuit"....

Now, that said, technically speaking, you are correct, the load is felt on outlet connections "between the source and the load".... The "trick for a novice owner attempting to be safe by changing out ONE OUTLET on a daisy chain is the inability to determine just how the outlets are wired..... It's not the "electrical theory that gets them in trouble" but the "practical application of assuming Keystone did everything correctly while rushing a trailer down the line close to quitting time" and that linear measurements correspond to outlet sequence on a daisy chain circuit. Sometimes they "do line up" but sometimes they don't. That's when a novice can get "really deep in the tall grass"....

I learned long ago NEVER to trust someone "unknown to me" to have my best interests at heart when they're doing a job for someone they don't know and likely will never meet..... Each of us is our "own best advocate".....
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Old 05-21-2023, 09:38 AM   #26
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[QUOTE=bobbecky;536456]
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As the saying goes, you have a right to your own opinions but not to your own facts. Much of rule making is not only influenced by science, but often is modified and updated because of lessons learned from unforeseen accidents sometimes involving loss of life. Plane crashes, failed space launches, fire, explosions, car crashes, electrocutions, equipment failures, building collapse, all have contributed to safer standard of design, manufacturing, and function. Encouraging someone to make their RV into electrical test lab in violation of a known standard is dangerous behavior.


The reason I posted this is because our rig has the fireplace below the TV and it's all connected to a 15 amp circuit, and this is as designed and built at the factory. What ever size circuit, 15 amp, 20 amp, or larger, is designed to handle the full load rating. The way some of these discussion progress, these RV's are so dangerous, no one should even think of sleeping in them when connected to electric power. It's also not good advice to encourage people to rewire or add circuits if they are not qualified in electric wiring. Too many homes burn down because of faulty homeowner wiring.

Yours was designed and built at the factory with the fireplace installed…The op is adding one as an accessory…To point out the safe way of adding a appliance to the rv isn’t encouraging them to rewire or add a circuit….it’s simply explaining the proper way of doing things and they can hire someone to do it or take it on themselves if they are experienced…i’m fairly certain that there are no licensed electricians wiring up the trailer in Elkhart….the guy that wired the tv and fireplace circuit today may have been sweeping floors last week.
That being said i always say to get a licensed electrician whenever you are unsure of something but many states allow homeowners to do their own wiring with some limitations…and i don’t believe there are any permits or inspections on rvs or the vast majority would fail right out of the gate
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Old 05-21-2023, 01:22 PM   #27
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Ironically, while trying to reset a Ring camera unit inside my rig last night, I discovered that either the ground wiring or the ground receptacle prongs on both kitchen sink GFI outlets are intermittent -- and yet the grounding on the outlet I added myself on the other side of the sink, and wired into one of those boxes, is a solid as Gibraltar. The wonder never ends.
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Old 05-21-2023, 04:58 PM   #28
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Ironically, while trying to reset a Ring camera unit inside my rig last night, I discovered that either the ground wiring or the ground receptacle prongs on both kitchen sink GFI outlets are intermittent -- and yet the grounding on the outlet I added myself on the other side of the sink, and wired into one of those boxes, is a solid as Gibraltar. The wonder never ends.
Which is why I stated, "The ENTIRE circuit is a hazard if someone replaces only one of multiple outlets"... There simply is no way for someone not skilled in electrical wiring to assess where (in the series of daisy chained outlets) the heaviest load will be consumed and then work back to the circuit breaker panel from there replacing outlets with a safer type that won't overheat or vibrate loose creating a hazard. Then as sure as the sun comes up every morning, the very next trip, one of the outlets further down the line will lose a ground or a neutral and the GFCI will shut down power to the entire circuit... and the noobie will say, "But I replaced all the outlets back to the circuit breaker.....

In these "fiberglass or tin boxes we call RV's" assuming that something is always built a specific fashion is likely to be the NUMBER ONE mistake made by new owners..... Heck, as long as I've been tugging these things around, every day I "shake my damn head in amazement" at the things I find not only on my own trailer or on those I see around me, but it's even more astounding to read about the "holy smokes, guess what happened to me today" posts on this and other forums.....

Ain't none of these things built to an "exacting standnard of excellence" in fact, most are probably built to the minimum standards required and using every shortcut available to the workers, so they can get the thing off the line before quitting time.......
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Old 05-21-2023, 09:48 PM   #29
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I agree that every one between the fireplace and the breaker box is seeing the entire load. But the ones beyond the fireplace to the end of the line are seeing only the loads plugged into themselves and the ones after them. This is basic Kirschoff's Law.
First, every outlet between the fireplace and the “breaker box does not see the entire load. Kirschoff’s laws does not state that. See the last paragraph to see what is stated. Let’s use the addition of the fireplace for this discussion. Our example begins with a single pole breaker, 5 outlets in a daisy chain as follows: outlet #1 is unused, outlet #2 has a tv in use, drawing 2 amps, outlet #3 has a clock drawing .5 amps, #4 outlet is unused and finally a few feet away is the fireplace outlet #5 drawing 11 amps. In this example, if an ammeter is clamped around the black wire at any point after the breaker but before outlet #2, the readout will display the total amp draw of the entire circuit (13.5 amps). If a second readout is obtained after the tv outlet #2, the readout will decrease by 2 amps. Another reading taken after the clock at outlet #3 yields 11 amps. So what segment of wire had the greatest load? That segment between the breaker and outlet #2. So what if the ammeter clamp encircles both the black and white wire simultaneously? The readout is zero. This is what Kirschoff’s laws explain, that the sum of the loop conductors is zero.
In a given loop (in our case the black hot and the white neutral) form a potential current loop. we’ll call this the main loop. A bridge (outlet) can create a sub loop in the main loop. The bridge is completed when something is plugged into the outlet and a device is turned on. The points where the outlet connects to the black and wire, Kirschoff’s calls nodes. Nodes create sub loops in the main loop. The total current of the sub loops and the main loop must add up to zero according to Kirschoff. This the principle a GFCI operates on. As long as the current flowing between the white and black wire is the same, a magnetic field does not develop. Any loss of voltage or current upsets Kirschoff’s Law causing a magnetic field and the GFCI to trip. Resistors shown in explanations of Kirschoff’s laws are best understood if you think of them as electric devices. Pretty smart guy Gustav Kirschoff to figure this stuff out back in the mid 1800’s.
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Old 05-21-2023, 09:58 PM   #30
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I think you simply misinterpreted my phrase "the entire load" to mean "the entire load of everything on the circuit," when what I meant to convey was "the entire load on the circuit imposed by the fireplace." Nothing in your example contradicts this, so to my mind, we are on the same page. Sorry for the ambiguity.
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Old 05-22-2023, 05:19 AM   #31
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I think you simply misinterpreted my phrase "the entire load" to mean "the entire load of everything on the circuit," when what I meant to convey was "the entire load on the circuit imposed by the fireplace." Nothing in your example contradicts this, so to my mind, we are on the same page. Sorry for the ambiguity.
No need to be sorry, I’m reminded on a daily basis by the DW, I’ve mis interpreted her words. I thank you for your assessment and bringing back fond times. I wrote the above epistle at half past midnight this morning and tossed and turned all night (what was left of it) wondering if I had misspoke. Mr. White my electronics teacher 58 years ago, would stir in his grave if I had.
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