Drowning in knowledge regarding towing capability

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by army1rob

If you go off what some of the members on this forum say then probably 99% of people pulling 5th wheels with a 3/4 ton pick up would be overloaded. I see more people pulling 13-15k 5th wheels with a 3/4 ton than a 1t. I am not saying they are right but are they wrong? I pull a 20k toy hauler with a 1t SRW because I can’t park a dually in my garage. I am in Utah and refuse to park outside since it is my daily driver. My average tow with my trailer is under 500 and I probably tow 6-10 times a year. Most of those trips are with my best friend and his family and he has the same truck in a 3/4 ton towing a 14k 5th wheel. We obviously pull mountains and steep terrain and do just fine. The dealer doesn’t care about payload and the majority of people out there don’t either. Kudos to you for coming on here and looking for the right answer but I would tell you that is really about what you are comfortable with. A 5th wheel tows smoother and there is less sway than a TT. I towed my toy hauler with a 3/4 a couple of times and really only bought a 1t because I wanted a long bed. I can honestly say that the 1t rides like crap as a daily driver and I miss my 3/4. You do you and as long as you are comfortable you will be fine.

As a comparison:

I ride my motorcycle in heavy traffic frequently. My DW rides hers, usually right beside me or right behind me, depending on where we are and what is allowed by local rules.

We ride in downtown Gaylord where the speed limit is 30MPH, and on 2 lane highways where the speed limit is typically 55MPH.

We see people riding their motorcycles in downtown Gaylord (30MPH limit) at 50-60 MPH, no helmet and weaving in and out of traffic. Often they'll run a redlight and sometimes make a left turn from the right lane. Few of them wear a helmet and most are in shorts/T-shirt with "flipflops" or sneakers. We get passed by people riding 70-80 MPH on nearly every ride.

We see this "almost on every ride"... DW and I always wear a helmet and protective clothing. we follow the speed limits and try to follow safe riding techniques when we ride....

BUT: WE SEE THESE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME !!!!!

By your "logic" it would be OK for DW to not wear a helmet which messes up her hair, we "could skip the protective gear" since it's hot and everybody else is in shorts and "riding cool"... We are "only 30 miles from home, not a long distance, so why bother to spend the time to get properly dressed since "nobody else does"......

Uhmmmmmm No thanks, I'll put on my helmet, protective gear and continue to "just shake my head in disgust" at those people breaking the law and ignoring "safety" (both their own and everyone else in downtown Gaylord)...... YMMV

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

As a comparison:

We ride in downtown Gaylord and on 2 lane highways where the speed limit is typically 55MPH.

Downtown Gaylord has a 55 mph speed limit? Is that a typo?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Downtown Gaylord has a 55 mph speed limit? Is that a typo?

Context bub, context...... It's stated clearly, literally in the next sentence, but I "fixed it fer ya".....

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Context bub, context...... It's stated clearly, literally in the next sentence, but I "fixed it fer ya".....

As you can see, I am easily confused but I am pretty old.

[army1rob]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

army1rob, have you ever put your rig on a scale loaded? When you do look at the weight you have on your tires and rear axle. You are likely exceeding both weights.
The issue isn't can it PULL it, it is can you carry it, does your one ton have air bags to fix rear sag? They don't increase tire capacity.
You are playing Russian Roulette with your safety and others on the road.

I actually have and this is what is funny to me about the members on here that always assume the weights of vehicles. The sticker on my truck now is 4390. My pin weight on my trailer after SxS and fuel loses 400 lbs and is 2980 (I have a 15 foot garage so all weight is behind the axles, think teeter totter just in case you have a problem imagining how a trailer loses pin weight). I load my trailer in the rear and middle and not the front so that makes a huge difference since it has three axles.I don’t ever tow with water so I don’t have to worry about tanks. So technically I am within specs. Don’t honestly care if I was but did that just because I was curious to see if everyone who pulled 13k or more had to have a dually as recommended by the senior members on this site. For insurance purposes no insurance company is going to to try and take someone to court to prove they were 500lbs overweight. It is way to costly, so quit using that as a scare tactic to get people to see you perspective. It’s like J-walking, it is illegal in all 50 states but who actually gets a ticket?

[LHaven]

If you play the rear-loading game to reduce pin weight, you increase instability. Sway control hardware only buys you so much. The suggested pin weight figure is 23% not because that's how most configurations work out, but to promote a stable tow. The rig configurations "work out" that way because the manufacturers deliberately design them to that balance, precisely to produce the proper tow.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by army1rob

Don’t honestly care if I was but did that just because I was curious to see if everyone who pulled 13k or more had to have a dually as recommended by the senior members on this site.

Obviously your comment above is wrong (see my signature). The rest of your post advocates irresponsible towing IMO. You can do what you want but just because you haven't killed yourself or someone else isn't a good reason to encourage others to do it....I'm not a "hey ya'll watch this" kinda guy. I hope members reading your post pay attention to your thoughts on towing; you "don't honestly care" - most people do.

[travelin texans]

I would think if a long bed SRW will fit in the garage so would a dually, typically with a dually "if the mirrors fit so will the fenders". Although you might be able to get out of the 2nd vehicle next to it.
I know you could care less, but what's the tongue weight without the SxS loaded. That tetter totter effect is not pound per pound so how much of that weight it removes from the front gets added back without the rear loaded?.
Until you've towed a heavy 5er with a dually you can't honestly say "there's no issues with the SRW", as been said on here numerous times "you don't know what you don't know!".
There are lots & lots & lots of folks out there towing long heavy rvs that are terribly overloaded & are just like you, don't really care. But the rest of us on the highways with you do care about ourselves & your devil may care attitudes! Believe me if me or mine are injured or worse by someone overloaded by as little as that 500 pounds there will be insurance companies, law enforcement & judges involved to find out just how much those folks should've cared then.

[jasin1]

How does the teeter totter effect work when you go over bumps in the road? does all the weight shift back and forth between the pin and the rear of the fifth wheel in a oscillating motion. ..seems like every other rhythmic motion would compound or multiply the the weight on the truck unless pulling absolutely flat roads…just wondering if someone knows

[Badbart56]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

I would think if a long bed SRW will fit in the garage so would a dually, typically with a dually "if the mirrors fit so will the fenders". Although you might be able to get out of the 2nd vehicle next to it.
I know you could care less, but what's the tongue weight without the SxS loaded. That tetter totter effect is not pound per pound so how much of that weight it removes from the front gets added back without the rear loaded?.
Until you've towed a heavy 5er with a dually you can't honestly say "there's no issues with the SRW", as been said on here numerous times "you don't know what you don't know!".
There are lots & lots & lots of folks out there towing long heavy rvs that are terribly overloaded & are just like you, don't really care. But the rest of us on the highways with you do care about ourselves & your devil may care attitudes! Believe me if me or mine are injured or worse by someone overloaded by as little as that 500 pounds there will be insurance companies, law enforcement & judges involved to find out just how much those folks should've cared then.

My wife and I drive about 100K miles a year now. That's down from 200K as we run a dedicated route now! If you could see all the RV crashes we have seen! You might care then. Don't let inconvenience get you or someone else killed. It really doesn't cost that much more to do things right.

[army1rob]

Like I said pointless to disagree. As I said I am within my weight limits without a dually. I have actually towed with a dually and got rid of it because I was sick of people trashing my fenders in the parking lot with their car doors, had to back in. Toy haulers are designed with heavier pin weight to compensate for the rear shift in weight. I am not doing anything outside the manufacturer’s recommendations. They recommend no more than 3500 lbs in the rear. As for pound for pound, if anyone has ever seen a 400lb SxS please let me know since mine is about 2200lbs. I have traveled all over this country and seen my share of RV accidents most of those have nothing to do with being overweight. The majority are people not towing putting people who are in situations where they have to make a split second decision and end up off the road somehow. I have seen RVs on their side from the wind but I have also seen a lot more semis in the same situation. The only difference between a dually and my truck is six inches of tire on each side. The suspension is the same unless you get into the 4500 range. These new trucks have more payload than older trucks there are probably a few of you on here that’s duallys don’t have much more payload than my SRW. If I honestly thought I was towing unsafe I would get a bigger truck but I am within weight and have towed my trailer in 50mph winds with no issues. I just don’t agree that you should run out and by a new truck if you are a few hundred lbs overweight. Some people on this forum are more interested in weight shaming people, like above even though I’m within my weight limits, than actually giving people solid advice. I understand there is a moral answer to give people and that’s why there are people like me that can give honest answers to people who are looking for them.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by army1rob

Like I said pointless to disagree. As I said I am within my weight limits without a dually. I have actually towed with a dually and got rid of it because I was sick of people trashing my fenders in the parking lot with their car doors, had to back in. Toy haulers are designed with heavier pin weight to compensate for the rear shift in weight. I am not doing anything outside the manufacturer’s recommendations. They recommend no more than 3500 lbs in the rear. As for pound for pound, if anyone has ever seen a 400lb SxS please let me know since mine is about 2200lbs. I have traveled all over this country and seen my share of RV accidents most of those have nothing to do with being overweight. The majority are people not towing putting people who are in situations where they have to make a split second decision and end up off the road somehow. I have seen RVs on their side from the wind but I have also seen a lot more semis in the same situation. The only difference between a dually and my truck is six inches of tire on each side. The suspension is the same unless you get into the 4500 range. These new trucks have more payload than older trucks there are probably a few of you on here that’s duallys don’t have much more payload than my SRW. If I honestly thought I was towing unsafe I would get a bigger truck but I am within weight and have towed my trailer in 50mph winds with no issues. I just don’t agree that you should run out and by a new truck if you are a few hundred lbs overweight. Some people on this forum are more interested in weight shaming people, like above even though I’m within my weight limits, than actually giving people solid advice. I understand there is a moral answer to give people and that’s why there are people like me that can give honest answers to people who are looking for them.

Kenny, You have provided some poor advice for many new owners. You can do what you like as you obviously have stated your opinions on payload and towing. Geesh, the horse is dead and I believe this thread would be well served to be closed before folks get really angry. That is my opinion.

[vampress_me]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

I would think if a long bed SRW will fit in the garage so would a dually, typically with a dually "if the mirrors fit so will the fenders".

I can attest to the fact that yes, it does. Although with a slight twist. I have to fold the mirrors in on our DRW because they are too wide. The duallys fit with no issue however, and about 6” on each side. So easy to park in the garage, even a lowly woman can do it. But, maybe it’s hard for some people to figure that out. Or, it’s just a great excuse for them to brag about what they can’t do. 🤷

[sourdough]

All these "duallys fit in a garage" etc. comments need to furnish garage specs. Duallys do not fit in normal car sized garage...I know. Now, does one want to spend 15 minutes trying to center the truck exactly in the middle of the door and hopefully not scrape the skirts of the 90k truck? Not me. Push the nose into the front wall of the garage and dent the sheetrock to get the butt end in? Not me. Measurements would be nice.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by sourdough

All these "duallys fit in a garage" etc. comments need to furnish garage specs. Duallys do not fit in normal car sized garage...I know. Now, does one want to spend 15 minutes trying to center the truck exactly in the middle of the door and hopefully not scrape the skirts of the 90k truck? Not me. Push the nose into the front wall of the garage and dent the sheetrock to get the butt end in? Not me. Measurements would be nice.

Well I agree to a point. I would back in as the rear back up camera would allow getting within a inch to the wall without issue.
Door width 9' no sweat.
To all that freak out about backing into a parking spot, been doing this for years, even with the old 2001 Ram 2500 Club Cab, I just found it easier than nosing in. It also puts the hips on the DRW ahead of most car doors.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well I agree to a point. I would back in as the rear back up camera would allow getting within a inch to the wall without issue.
Door width 9' no sweat.
To all that freak out about backing into a parking spot, been doing this for years, even with the old 2001 Ram 2500 Club Cab, I just found it easier than nosing in. It also puts the hips on the DRW ahead of most car doors.

Backing in is one method of parking...in some small percentage of situations it can be easier - but generally pulling in gives the driver better vision and is safer. Backing in let's the driver observe their intended parking area real time prior to occupying the space so they can see any children, obstacles etc. then immediately proceed to back into the space. When departing the driver is then looking directly where he is going...if he checks in front of his vehicle. In that case backing in can be a benefit because as you leave you are looking directly at your exit path. We had many hundreds of trucks that made many stops per day and we mandated backing in...IF it was prudent. I enforced that IF it was prudent. In many cases it is not. It is much easier to have a fender bender while trying to use a rear view mirror and it's much easier to put a vehicle into a parking space using the turning/guiding front wheels vs the back.


All of the above said just to say that pulling in or backing in...the same vehicle has to fit into the same spot. The vast majority of drivers are more comfortable, and adept, at pulling in than backing in. I have taught, certified and re-certified hundreds of drivers and the above will hold true.

[Badbart56]

Originally Posted by army1rob

Like I said pointless to disagree. As I said I am within my weight limits without a dually. I have actually towed with a dually and got rid of it because I was sick of people trashing my fenders in the parking lot with their car doors, had to back in. Toy haulers are designed with heavier pin weight to compensate for the rear shift in weight. I am not doing anything outside the manufacturer’s recommendations. They recommend no more than 3500 lbs in the rear. As for pound for pound, if anyone has ever seen a 400lb SxS please let me know since mine is about 2200lbs. I have traveled all over this country and seen my share of RV accidents most of those have nothing to do with being overweight. The majority are people not towing putting people who are in situations where they have to make a split second decision and end up off the road somehow. I have seen RVs on their side from the wind but I have also seen a lot more semis in the same situation. The only difference between a dually and my truck is six inches of tire on each side. The suspension is the same unless you get into the 4500 range. These new trucks have more payload than older trucks there are probably a few of you on here that’s duallys don’t have much more payload than my SRW. If I honestly thought I was towing unsafe I would get a bigger truck but I am within weight and have towed my trailer in 50mph winds with no issues. I just don’t agree that you should run out and by a new truck if you are a few hundred lbs overweight. Some people on this forum are more interested in weight shaming people, like above even though I’m within my weight limits, than actually giving people solid advice. I understand there is a moral answer to give people and that’s why there are people like me that can give honest answers to people who are looking for them.

Well you might have had a little bit of credibility up until that line. No issues! 50 mph winds are a pain for us even when we're loaded to 80,000. Or does "no issues" just mean that you didn't wreck? There's always one.....so yeah, pointless to disagree. You're gonna do it your way regardless.

[vampress_me]

Originally Posted by sourdough

All these "duallys fit in a garage" etc. comments need to furnish garage specs. Duallys do not fit in normal car sized garage...I know. Now, does one want to spend 15 minutes trying to center the truck exactly in the middle of the door and hopefully not scrape the skirts of the 90k truck? Not me. Push the nose into the front wall of the garage and dent the sheetrock to get the butt end in? Not me. Measurements would be nice.

Garage door dually fits in - 9’wide x 8’ tall door. Garage is 24’-10” deep. Yes, garage was deliberately designed/ built that deep to fit a crew cab long bed truck. Now, due to garage door bucks on the opening, the width of the opening said dually goes through is 8’-10” wide. Also, it does not take me 15 minutes to park in there, takes me longer to get up the 700’ long driveway (depending on if there is deer to avoid coming out of the corn field) than getting the truck in the garage. And, haven't scraped a fender on the rear wheels yet. Even DD was parking the dually in the garage when she was 17, and didn’t hit anything.

Tab A fits in slot B every time…..

[sourdough]

Thanks Lynette. Yes, I have no doubt a dually pulls through a 9' garage door. Your 24' 10" garage is not a run of the mill, standard issue garage length. Without going out to measure I believe mine is 24' as I spec'd (don't remember) but I also put a 30" elevated portion in the front of it for my "stuff". Most houses built I have seen have that elevated section but I don't travel all 50 states looking at new houses. Width? Mine is 9' wide. A dually will fit into it but virtually all duallys are too long. My mirrors have to come in and I can't imagine that other folks don't pull them in as well. Width wise on the dually, I have no desire to try to fit one in a garage door to have a dually.

"Or, it’s just a great excuse for them to brag about what they can’t do". LOL, certainly not a case of saying what I can't do, simply a matter of what I won't do and see no purpose in...for me. You are different I assume but never assume that someone that sees no logic in trying to stuff size 12 feet in a size 10 shoe can't do it....they just choose not to.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Backing in is one method of parking...in some small percentage of situations it can be easier - but generally pulling in gives the driver better vision and is safer. Backing in let's the driver observe their intended parking area real time prior to occupying the space so they can see any children, obstacles etc. then immediately proceed to back into the space. When departing the driver is then looking directly where he is going...if he checks in front of his vehicle. In that case backing in can be a benefit because as you leave you are looking directly at your exit path. We had many hundreds of trucks that made many stops per day and we mandated backing in...IF it was prudent. I enforced that IF it was prudent. In many cases it is not. It is much easier to have a fender bender while trying to use a rear view mirror and it's much easier to put a vehicle into a parking space using the turning/guiding front wheels vs the back.


All of the above said just to say that pulling in or backing in...the same vehicle has to fit into the same spot. The vast majority of drivers are more comfortable, and adept, at pulling in than backing in. I have taught, certified and re-certified hundreds of drivers and the above will hold true.

Well I will 100% agree with your first paragraph, and mostly disagree with the second.
We are talking lots with spots perpendicular to the lane of travel. With the addition of a backup camera, I can get within an inch of an obstacle behind me. Long truck, narrow lane, much, much easer to back in.
As I stated before it also puts the DRW “Hips” out of the way. I can back in easily between two cars, I could never dive in between them with the front.