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Old 01-28-2020, 08:45 AM   #21
JRTJH
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I've stayed out of this because honestly, it doesn't interest me in my current situation. I believe, for most RV'ers, lithium battery conversion is far too expensive and most don't use/even keep their RV long enough to justify the expense of conversion.

As a comparison, two GC2 (golf cart) batteries are less than $200 and can be used with the existing RV electrical charging system. Total expense to upgrade to a "100 amp system" is $200.

On the other hand, a lithium 100 amp battery is roughly $900 and the current RV charger typically won't charge that battery efficiently to obtain maximum life/recharge cycles. So, a new charger with a lithium profile is needed. That charger costs about $300. Now the expense of conversion becomes a "do it yourself cost" of around $1200.

The only advantage I can see when the two systems are "side by side" is the lower "discharge threshold" of the lithium system. (20% rather than 50%). That small "extended run time" at least for me, doesn't justify the added expense or the added longevity.

My current GC2 batteries (Duracell from Sam's Club) cost $78 each when I bought them 8 years ago. Today's cost is $89. My batteries are still functioning, still providing adequate power and still recharging appropriately after 8 years of service. Conversion to a system with a lifespan of 20 years would likely outlive my RV's lifespan. The cost $156 vs $1200 can't be justified, by me.

I see no advantage in a major investment ($1200) to change to a lithium system "for grins"... Currently, from a "dollar perspective" for someone who has a 3 or 4 year old RV, that major investment, when conditioned against the remaining RV ownership time, would likely not work out as a "wise investment".

There was a time when I wanted the "latest and greatest" and would pay 5, 6 even 10 times the "next year selling price" to buy it "NOW"... Through the years, I've learned that if I continue using what I have until next year, I can get the same thing and still have all the service I've enjoyed, have the "latest things a bit later" and keep much of my money.

That said, once the price of lithium technology becomes competitive for short term use (not the sales hype of recharge cycles) then the technology will be competitive from a short term investment perspective. Until people start keeping RV's 15 years or until the price of lithium batteries is similar to today's GC2 FLA batteries, for most, it's more a "gee-gaw look what I have" trinket than it is a useful tool for an RV.

Now, I know this is likely controversial for some people to understand, and that's OK. I realize there are some people who, for whatever reason, have the funds to "live on the technology edge and pay for it gladly".... I'm not including those people in "can you justify it from your use/income/need perspective. There are always going to be some people who can justify any expense, for them, Lithium technology is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I agree, for them, it's the right choice. However, for the average RV owner, the cost is way too high to offset the benefit.

YMMV, and I've no doubt the flames will soon reach "scorching temps"...
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:36 AM   #22
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I've stayed out of this because honestly, it doesn't interest me in my current situation. I believe, for most RV'ers, lithium battery conversion is far too expensive and most don't use/even keep their RV long enough to justify the expense of conversion.

As a comparison, two GC2 (golf cart) batteries are less than $200 and can be used with the existing RV electrical charging system. Total expense to upgrade to a "100 amp system" is $200.

On the other hand, a lithium 100 amp battery is roughly $900 and the current RV charger typically won't charge that battery efficiently to obtain maximum life/recharge cycles. So, a new charger with a lithium profile is needed. That charger costs about $300. Now the expense of conversion becomes a "do it yourself cost" of around $1200.

The only advantage I can see when the two systems are "side by side" is the lower "discharge threshold" of the lithium system. (20% rather than 50%). That small "extended run time" at least for me, doesn't justify the added expense or the added longevity.

My current GC2 batteries (Duracell from Sam's Club) cost $78 each when I bought them 8 years ago. Today's cost is $89. My batteries are still functioning, still providing adequate power and still recharging appropriately after 8 years of service. Conversion to a system with a lifespan of 20 years would likely outlive my RV's lifespan. The cost $156 vs $1200 can't be justified, by me.

I see no advantage in a major investment ($1200) to change to a lithium system "for grins"... Currently, from a "dollar perspective" for someone who has a 3 or 4 year old RV, that major investment, when conditioned against the remaining RV ownership time, would likely not work out as a "wise investment".

There was a time when I wanted the "latest and greatest" and would pay 5, 6 even 10 times the "next year selling price" to buy it "NOW"... Through the years, I've learned that if I continue using what I have until next year, I can get the same thing and still have all the service I've enjoyed, have the "latest things a bit later" and keep much of my money.

That said, once the price of lithium technology becomes competitive for short term use (not the sales hype of recharge cycles) then the technology will be competitive from a short term investment perspective. Until people start keeping RV's 15 years or until the price of lithium batteries is similar to today's GC2 FLA batteries, for most, it's more a "gee-gaw look what I have" trinket than it is a useful tool for an RV.

Now, I know this is likely controversial for some people to understand, and that's OK. I realize there are some people who, for whatever reason, have the funds to "live on the technology edge and pay for it gladly".... I'm not including those people in "can you justify it from your use/income/need perspective. There are always going to be some people who can justify any expense, for them, Lithium technology is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I agree, for them, it's the right choice. However, for the average RV owner, the cost is way too high to offset the benefit.

YMMV, and I've no doubt the flames will soon reach "scorching temps"...
And I almost didn't comment on this because I'm one of those people who can justify it based on my usage - but there are a few things that I think need to be pointed out.

LiFePO4 cells aren't really subject to Peukert's law, so they may last longer under certain loads than lead acid cells. So, it depends on what you're doing with them. For just a few small 12V loads, a pair of GC2s will work just as well - but that changes when you throw a higher current load on them several times a day (coffee pot, residential fridge compressor, microwave, etc).

My previous system consisted of a 3kW inverter, 4x NAPA GC2s, a Victron BMV-712, no solar, PD9280, and an Onan QG5500 configured to start at ~50% SoC. After just a few months of use, I was able to note significant degradation and was no longer able to pull the plated AH out of the bank. They were on a watering system and filled every couple weeks. The bank was a little undersized for the demands - discharging to 50% at least once, often twice per day - and that was a contributing factor to their quicker than expected decline. As an aside, this setup created an inherent hatred of generators for me.

Your argument about length of ownership - what's keeping you from pulling them and moving them to your next RV? That investment doesn't have to stay with the RV if you trade or sell it - you could just return it to stock and keep your battery/converter investment for the replacement rig. With that being a possibility, a lot of your argument starts to fall short.

Also, RVs aren't generally considered investments. Sure, you can make money off a smart or lucky sale, or save some money on your family vacations if you play your cards right. Consider weekender RVs to be hobbies -- and like other hobbies, you usually don't buy the cheapest in effort to save money. You buy what you want. It's weird that we don't see much of the same financial scrupulosity when it comes to buying or upgrading sports cars, bicycles, consumer electronics, musical instruments, etc. Further, I really don't get how people go out and spend large amounts of money on a RV and then nickel and dime smaller purchases like batteries and hitches, especially when those have a very strong bearing on the overall experience with the rig. Ultimately for this line of reasoning, I've determined that if people can't finance it in, they have a much more difficult time justifying the costs. If everyone on here applied the method of buying the cheapest adequate model when choosing an RV, all of us would be in Hideouts (and nothing wrong with that, we enjoyed our '14 260LHS).

If we're talking about full-timing, there is a different investment model being looked at, and that changes things. I find that it actually tends to fall in favor of things like LiFePO4 batteries, if that means offsetting the amount of time you spend in parks - which has financial as well as several more difficult to quantify benefits. There is a break even point for even the largest solar/lithium setups if you aren't paying an average of $31.87/night (our average when we used to stay in parks) in park fees.

If you are building a big bank, LiFePO4 may be the only way to go for other reasons. My bank weighs 480lbs excluding cables, while a lead acid bank with the equivalent performance would be at least half a ton, take up a whole lot more space, require more maintenance and all the labor to swap it out multiple times over the lifespan of these batteries. Extrapolated over time, it could cost nearly as much, or more.

TL;DR: Both lead acid and LiFePO4 batteries have their places. What you should have depends on how you are using your RV. The majority of people go park to park and wouldn't benefit from LiFePO4. I suspect that any moderately serious boondocker would.
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Old 09-27-2020, 01:18 PM   #23
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[The] argument about length of ownership - what's keeping you from pulling them and moving them to your next RV? That investment doesn't have to stay with the RV if you trade or sell it - you could just return it to stock and keep your battery/converter investment for the replacement rig. With that being a possibility, a lot of your argument starts to fall short.
That's what we did. I removed two battleborn 100Ah batteries, Victron 50/100 MPPT solar charge controller, Victron BMV712 battery monitor, a Progressive Dynamics charger/converter and an AIMS 1000 watt pure sine wave inverter.

Sure, it took a little time to remove it and return the RV to stock. But the investment was worth it.
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Old 03-11-2021, 01:04 PM   #24
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Lithium Ion

So haven't actually done the conversion yet but will have it all done by Mid April.
So to answer the original question haven't used Lithium Ion. I have been investigating switching for about 2 months now and have decided to make the change. We are not rich and not looking for new toys to use, but in simple terms figure I will save some money in the long run.
Currently have 2 12volt lead acid batteries group 24's. Going to switch to one Lithium Ion battery. Battery cost with charger $629.00 CAD, and locking metal battery box $300.00 so $929.00 plus taxes. I will do the switch myself. Once I get it up and running will let you know how I am doing and give pros and cons.

Cheers everyone!!
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Old 03-11-2021, 01:19 PM   #25
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So haven't actually done the conversion yet but will have it all done by Mid April.
So to answer the original question haven't used Lithium Ion. I have been investigating switching for about 2 months now and have decided to make the change. We are not rich and not looking for new toys to use, but in simple terms figure I will save some money in the long run.
Currently have 2 12volt lead acid batteries group 24's. Going to switch to one Lithium Ion battery. Battery cost with charger $629.00 CAD, and locking metal battery box $300.00 so $929.00 plus taxes. I will do the switch myself. Once I get it up and running will let you know how I am doing and give pros and cons.

Cheers everyone!!
$629 sounds like a steal. But wait, that's Canadian money. I'll have to have Google convert to USD for me. Is that a 100Ah battery? I think you will NOT regret your decision. If you can swing it in the budget I think you will enjoy watching the "usage" of various equipment draws. Victron makes a nice Bluetooth one for about $120/130 USD. Much cheaper than when I bought mine.

Remember, Pictures, pictures, pictures. We're all voyeurs at heart.
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Old 03-12-2021, 11:27 AM   #26
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At the suggestion of Mikec557 I will be posting pictures of the install and stating pros and cons.

Cheers!
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Old 03-24-2021, 07:18 PM   #27
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Well thanks for the lesson......but that's not the information I was looking for nor does it answer my question. I'll be sure to refer to this the next time I need a refresher.



I asked if anyone has used lithium batteries and what their thoughts were.
I also have an Aims inverter/charger. I looked hard at the Aims battery but to save a little $$$ and the amount of AH I need I went with a Chins 300ah.
I know I know however that ALL come from the same place. Some just cost more and from all I can find to research these have the same battery chemistry as a Tesla. Nope can’t prove it.
Anyway I just received the battery and am in the process of getting everything in, wired and all of my solar chargers and such reprogrammed with the correct charge profiles. Looks like the Aims inverter/charger will get set to position “3” (AGM).
I did by a Boondocker converter to charge it from (sometimes).
If you want to chat PM me.

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Old 04-01-2021, 11:07 AM   #28
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Well thanks for the lesson......but that's not the information I was looking for nor does it answer my question. I'll be sure to refer to this the next time I need a refresher.

I asked if anyone has used lithium batteries and what their thoughts were.
Last year we had the OEM FLA batteries in the trailer, over the winter I built up a set of 280ah LifePo batteries. Weill be giving them a maiden voyage soon. I can give you feedback then. There is a huge community which used LifePo batteries for RV's Big thing is temperature. I have just finished moving my batteries from the tongue, to inside under the bed. They should stay protected from freezing temps.

Technicals,
CHARGING: yes your conventional battery charger on board will not PEAK charge the batteries, works good enough to get started.

USAGE: Yes you should know your typical amp draw to better design a system for your usage. No I did not, I learned about LifePo end of season, and then picked up my Victron meter to measure my usage. So, i over built, I have 2 - 280ah batteries built up with BMS to manage them.

You can do a google search for Will Prose
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ar+will+prowse
he has a ton of videos. Basically he's a Solar nerd. loves everything about it. Also has a forum for Q & A. But my point is, he purchases all types of batteries and test them against Advertised Rated Amp Hours... might be worth an afternoon to watch a few.
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Old 04-28-2021, 07:49 PM   #29
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I had some battery charging gremlins on my brand new Cougar, so I dumped the lead acid for an Ampere Time lithium 100aH. It was $499 and is highly recommended by reputable electrical guys on Youtube. The SOK lithium is also highly rated and about $550. I would love to own some BattleBorns but not at $1k+.
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Old 05-01-2021, 07:05 AM   #30
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If you are handy enough to comect a few wires and put batteries in parralell or series you can save a ton of money building your own LFP battery. 900 bucks for a 100 AH battery is a little outdated there are now 100ah LFP batteries that can be bought ready to go for around 500 bucks CDN, good 210 AH deep cycles are close to 300 so LFP is now cheeper than quality GC bartteries.

they will charge faster than flooded batteries, will give you full capacity and so on. if you can build your own you could build a 280AH battery for around 500.US that is about 44 lbs and 6" x 8" x 11" in size.

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Old 05-01-2021, 07:54 AM   #31
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"reputable electrical guys on Youtube."

That's an oxymoron isn't it?
I've watched so many rv type U tube videos, mostly for a good laugh, & not sure I'd call most of them reputable.
Not saying whomever you watched wasn't "reputable", but there's a good many that aren't, just like to watch themselves on U tube.
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Old 05-01-2021, 08:25 AM   #32
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"reputable electrical guys on Youtube."

That's an oxymoron isn't it?
I've watched so many rv type U tube videos, mostly for a good laugh, & not sure I'd call most of them reputable.
Not saying whomever you watched wasn't "reputable", but there's a good many that aren't, just like to watch themselves on U tube.
Agreed. That's why I watched many different videos and they are good for a few laughs. Lots of people love being an "influencer" these days. But there are a few good ones on there, and after watching a kid by the name of Will Prowse out of Las Vegas, I followed his advice on the Ampere Time lithium battery coupled with a Victron MPPT charge controller with the bluetooth temperature monitor.

Although I'm in the early stages of ownership, I am extremely satisfied with the results. The Ampere Time 100 aH lithium was $499 and significantly lighter than the lead acid. I did spend a bunch more elsewhere though....Victron charge controller was $350 and I put three more solar panels on the roof, but I'm a sucker for upgrades in general. My race YZ450F, all in, is about $16k (with a JGR Supercross motor,) and my carbon bmx national bike has close to $2500 in it. Like I said, I don't mind putting money into the things I enjoy.

Anyway, my family and I are really having a good time having a race headquarters again. And this forum seems to be a good group of people.
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Old 05-01-2021, 12:35 PM   #33
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Li Battery discussion

I am joining the discussion late in the game and may have missed a couple of entries but, the question no one seems to have asked is just how much is the OP drawing with his television watching. Many of us use 12 volt TVs with low draw or at least a modern LCD TV with a small inverter so our current draw is pretty low. Also, many of us have converted to LED lights. He already stated the he runs the fridge on gas so that draw is pretty low. Maybe he is using an old tube TV with a huge inverter...I done think that he said what he has.

What he really needs to do is get a clamp on DC ammeter and actually measure his power draw under typical conditions. Only then can he, or anyone else, make predictions on how long his set up will play.

IMHO
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:58 AM   #34
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I just bought an Ampere Time 100 AH Lifepo4 also for $500. Just testing it in the driveway for now.

To me the price is offset by a couple of factors.

I park the TT outside in the Winter, I have to bring batteries into the garage, even if you don't need to trickle charge a Lifepo4, I still will bring it in.

Carrying lead acid batteries is not easy for me.

Carrying this at 25 lbs is a breeze.

Also they are stated to last longer, and not subject to damage by draining them too low. I could guesstimate that they'll last twice as long, so effectively that cuts the price in ½.
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Old 05-09-2021, 07:51 AM   #35
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I just bought an Ampere Time 100 AH Lifepo4 also for $500. Just testing it in the driveway for now.

To me the price is offset by a couple of factors.

I park the TT outside in the Winter, I have to bring batteries into the garage, even if you don't need to trickle charge a Lifepo4, I still will bring it in.

Carrying lead acid batteries is not easy for me.

Carrying this at 25 lbs is a breeze.

Also they are stated to last longer, and not subject to damage by draining them too low. I could guesstimate that they'll last twice as long, so effectively that cuts the price in ½.
It's been about 2yrs since I bought 2 Battleborn lithium batteries. They have performed flawlessly, and I love the power I have with the two of them compared to my old 2 FLAs. I admit it was hard to face the price of them, but competitors like Ampere Time weren't around or at the price they are today. If I were buying right now I think I would go with your ATs. It would have saved me about $1000. I think you'll be glad you switched to lithium.
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Old 05-09-2021, 12:56 PM   #36
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I'd love to add a second battery, but there's no place to put it. I could put a box on the tongue, but there is a unit with much of the trailers electronics on the tongue that the box would make inaccessible.

So for now it's finding ways to save watts. Does anyone have a list of what comes off of which 12volt fuse? Right now it has vague terms for area 1, area 2, etc. I definitely want to kill the radio. What else is drawing power that I could disconnect?

I see about a 3W draw on the battery. That plus the 16 or so that the propane fridge is drawing and getting 2 days between running the generator is the most I hope for with 100 ah.
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:08 PM   #37
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... Does anyone have a list of what comes off of which 12volt fuse? Right now it has vague terms for area 1, area 2, etc. ... I definitely want to kill the radio.
I don't think they do two trailers the same, even if they're consecutively going down the assembly line.

On mine, the radio is not on a dedicated fuse. In fact it's the same fuse/circuit for the radio, refrigerator, and furnace, that I know of. Because the furnace and air conditioner are "controlled" by my InCommand, I'll bet the gateway inside the AC shroud is drawing 12v off the same fuse. I'd suggest you pull the radio, or an access panel beside it, and look for an inline fuse or cut in an on/off switch and mount that conveniently.

Oh yeah, there's also an always hot dual port USB plug in my outside kitchen that is on the same 12v fuse.
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:11 PM   #38
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No outdoor kitchen on the 1650 Bullett Hybrid. All I know that's on is the radio, and the detector on the floor. I assume that's a Propane detector? Probably the smoke detector.

Anything else that might be drawing power?

Any ideas on how to save some of those fridge watts?
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:23 PM   #39
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There's not much you can do. For safety reasons you probably don't want to turn off the propane, smoke nor carbon monoxide sniffers. The refrigerator circuit board draws 12v. You need that to boondock. Likewise the furnace and water heater circuit boards draw power. You could safely disable those two parasites.

USB ports, even unused, draw some power but I can't believe it's enough to worry about.

The TV antenna usually has a power amplifier. Look for an almost invisible button on the faceplate for the cable jack behind the TV. There's usually a little LED that lights up when it's on. Toggle that button to figure it out.

Leave the water pump off except when you need it to draw water.

I can't think of anything else...
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:56 PM   #40
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Great post. I'm hoping the Hot Water Heater electronics don't draw much. That's my next test. Right now I'm on day 2 of just the fridge and that other 3watts. See how much power I'll have left after 2 days. Then drain the battery, charge, it (I'm returning my 20Amp charger and getting a 45Amp charger to charge faster.)

Then I run it with the hot water heater on propane to see what it draws from the DC.

Phones I'll charge from portable charging bricks, so it's just lights and the water pump. We won't take showers or use a lot of water in the camper. Oh and rolling down and up the Canopy.

2 days is my goal, then charge with my portable 2200 dual fuel generator.
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