Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Welcome to KeystoneForums.com! > New Member Check in!
Click Here to Login

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-08-2019, 05:17 AM   #41
spade117
Senior Member
 
spade117's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by c_l_phillips72 View Post

Some, most, or all (I’m not going to go back and look) have repeatedly said that I CAN NOT USE dry weight.

I disagree, because what I’m using it for is not for the same reason that you think I’m using it, and even if it was there would still be reasons why I could use it.

For example, if the dry weight of the camper was 2,000 lbs, with a carrying capacity of 800 trillion lbs, and a GVWR of 800,000,000,002,000 lbs.
I get what you are saying about not using the full GVW of the camper, and you may never reach that number, but you will never be at dry weight either. Remember that the battery and propane tanks are not included in the dry weight, and that is usually at least another 100 lbs, which is almost always added to the tongue weight as well since the placement of those items on travel trailers is typically on the front of the trailer.
__________________
2018 Springdale Summerland Series 3030BH
2018 Ram 2500 HD 6.4L Hemi Big Horn 4x4
spade117 is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 06:45 AM   #42
5J's
Senior Member
 
5J's's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Schulenburg
Posts: 1,164
I think there is just a misunderstanding between a new comer and some well experienced and seasoned folks. The scales will be your friend. The first step you need to do is see where you TV stands on weights. You need to load your truck for a camping trip. Throw in some fire wood, fishing poles and tackle, fill an ice chest with ice and drinks. Go to the local truck stop and top off all your fluids (fuel, washer fluid, etc...). Weigh your truck, you're looking for three weights here, total, front axle and rear axle. While this won't tell you exactly where you'll be it'll get you a good start. Now, you've said you'll be using the Equalizer 4 point hitch, If you already have that throw it on the truck prior to weighing, if not research the weight of that hitch. Add the weight of the hitch to both the total weight of your truck as well as the rear axle weight. The next thing you'll add is the approximate weight of your son, say 100lbs to the total weight from the previous number (his weight will also affect both front and rear axle weights but, there is no way to know exactly how much without actually having him in the truck when you weigh).

Total=scale weight+hitch weight+100

Rear=scale weight+hitch weight

Front=scale weight

These weights will tell you how much more weight (pay load) you can afford to put on your truck, i.e. tongue weight.

Total payload= GVWR-previous total-(GVWR*.1)

The GVWR*.1 will give you a "safety" margin.

Rear payload=GRAWR-previous rear weight

Front--this weight "shouldn't" increase unless you add weight to your truck forward the rear wheels.

The next thing you will do is to calculate the tongue weight of your trailer, only because you don't have one yet. To err on the side of caution always use GVWR for calculations.

Tongue weight=trailer GVWR*.15

If this weight is greater than either of the previously calculated payload numbers your set up should not be used.

To find a trailer that will work for you find the trailer tongue weight by the tongue weight calculation above and compare it to your payload calculations. For safetys sake please don't exceed the truck calculations above.

The final calculation that you want to do is verify the trucks GCVWR is not exceeded.

GCVW=truck GVWR+trailer GVWR

If this number is greater than the truck GCVWR then your set up shouldn't be used.

Please note that you should always calculate for the worst possible scenario and that is why you calculate with GVWR. Can you use curb weights? Yes, but, just know that if you have one extra bottle of drinking water or an extra rock from a gravel road hanging around then your calculations are void.

I hope this helps you understand a little better. I also want to say all these folks are good people and are well seasoned and want to help. They're only concerned about the safety of your family and theirs. Weights are a hot button issue and can be a convoluted topic.

The final thing I want to mention that doesn't get brought up is braking. One of the most important reasons to stay within your weights is stopability. Your vehicle was braking system was also designed around your weight capacities.

Good luck!
__________________
Joey

2017 Hideout 308BHDS

2006 F-350 6.0L PSD CC 4X4
5J's is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 07:57 AM   #43
Carrottop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 329
I am glad to hear you have lowered your expectation of a trailer weight wise down to the 6000lbs + range. In my opinion you are still swinging at the fences in that range. Again this is just my opinion

Rear axle ratio: 3:21 this is the weakest axle available for trailer towing offered by Ram. The middle of the road is the 3:55 and the best for towing would be the 3:92. Yours is equipped with the 3:21

Tires: By the placard you posted your truck is not equipped with LT tires. This is another reason your truck will underperform when pulling any kind of weight. Easy fix go trade those tires in for some good LT tires before you put too many miles on them.

Payload: 1667lbs. Lets assume you buy that trailer at 6000lbs dry weight here is the math.

6000lbs x 15% Tounge weight = 900lbs

Your weight = assume 180lbs
Your sons weight = assume 90lbs
bikes, camping stuff bbq = 250lbs (it does not take much to load 250lbs)
Weight distributing hitch = 101lbs
this totals = 1521lbs.

your truck can handle 1667 - 1521 = 146lbs from max. This is using dry weight which no matter what you say you cannot use as towing weight (even if you add an additional 1000lbs to the dry weight your so close to your max of your truck and that it is not good.

Again I am being very general here and I don't believe that the weights I typed above are realistic I am going of the posts you made on what you would carry.

Here are some questions for you.

What if your son wanted to bring a friend? you do not have the payload capacity for that.

What about when your son gets a little older and gets bigger or you meet a significant other? You do not have the capacity for that.

Did you add any accessories to your truck such as a cap or tonneau cover?

I am really not trying to be negative here but trying to help you make a decision that will not cost you money upgrading in the future and provide a safe and enjoyable experience for you and your family.

I am literally towing with a similar sized truck that has every towing and payload option offered by Ford in 2009 and when my wife and I shopped for trailers we quickly came to realize that we had to limit our trailer GVR to 7000 or so. That meant a dry weight of no more than 5000-5200lbs.

I am not going to sit here and chastise you should you choose to go heavier than that as it is your money, your responsibility and your safety.

We are more than happy to answer any questions you have to help you gain the knowledge and information to make the best decision for you your family and the general public that would be driving around you.

Best of Luck!

John
__________________
____________
John & Ekeen
2009 Ford F-150 5.4
2015 Nissan Armada 5.6
2021 Keystone Residence 40FLFT
Carrottop is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 09:59 AM   #44
hankpage
Site Team
 
hankpage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Venice
Posts: 5,346
I would like to make a suggestion. Make a father and son outing and have lunch at a truck stop. With full fuel tank and maybe some "stuff you may be taking camping, weigh the truck. Deduct that weight from the GVW on the door jamb sticker. This should get you close to what your true PAYLOAD is. Now deduct 100 lbs. for the hitch and 15% of what YOU feel the trailers weight will be. (10% may not be enough for a controlled towing experience.)

You may be okay with the smaller trailer, but I would be willing to bet the larger TT will put you well over payload and perhaps some other limits.

Waiting to weigh everything after you buy the trailer is like closing the barn door after the horse runs away. Municipal dumps and salvage yards have scales also but not much fun for the kid.

Good luck, enjoy your time with your son and travel safely, Hank
__________________
Hank & Lynn
2007 Cougar 290RKS, E-Z Flex, 16" XPS RIBs ( SOLD .. Gonna miss her ... looking for new 5r)
2004.5 Dodge 2500 QC, LB, 5.9HO, WestTach gauges, Ride-Rite
hankpage is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 11:24 AM   #45
Number 4
Senior Member
 
Number 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 187
I’m coming to this party a little late but would like to share my experience in hopes it will help. I think my first post on this forum was a similar a “Will this work?” question regarding a possible Ram 1500 Hemi for the used trailer I’d already purchased. The same guys giving you information helped me run the numbers to confirm that I was headed for trouble. I pulled that used trailer home on the flats with my 1999 Dodge Ram 1500 with its 5.9 litre engine and I-have-no-idea gear ratio. I’d used that truck (was purchased new with a “tow package”) for years to tow a smaller trailer and I hated the automatic tranny “hunting” for the right range while climbing hills. I also hated the constant braking (even with trailer brakes) and shifting to 2nd when coming down the mountain switchbacks. That’s why I thought a newer Ram 1500 Hemi would be the hot ticket. I’m sure it would have gone up hills just fine, but being overweight when combined with my “new” larger trailer created a whole new set of potential problems. In my case, since I already had the trailer, I ended up buying a used Ford F-250 which on the surface might seem to be overkill for my 6,800 lb GVWR trailer, but it's an absolute dream going up to 7,000 ft and coming back down. In your case the situation is reversed so you will do well to find the right trailer matched to your truck.
As for adding the weight of food or water please trust me, that approach will last for one or two trips. Depending on what camping facilities you plan to use, many campgrounds do not have potable water spigots ready to hook up your white fill hose. I hate hauling hundreds of pounds of H2O up hills but for me there’s no other option. We pack the trailer with food/drink the night before leaving and it’s so very sweet to back into a nice spot, unhitch, drop levelers, pull out the camp chairs and enjoy a cool one in the shade rather than heading off to whatever store you can find to pay higher-than-home prices for whatever they stock.
You have “hung in there” working this puzzler out with all kinds of weights and capacities and ratios. Make sure you take all the wisdom of this forum into account and you will find the right combination for safe, reliable and enjoyable travels. Have fun camping with your son, it’s been awesome over the years for me and my family.
__________________

Number 4: 2013 Hideout 19FLBWE
Number 3: 1994 Skyline Nomad 1661
Number 2: 1971 Santa Fe
Number 1: 1967 Shasta Airflyte
2015 F-250 Lariat 6.2L CC 4x4 3.73
Number 4 is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 04:48 PM   #46
c_l_phillips72
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrottop View Post
I am glad to hear you have lowered your expectation of a trailer weight wise down to the 6000lbs + range. In my opinion you are still swinging at the fences in that range. Again this is just my opinion

Rear axle ratio: 3:21 this is the weakest axle available for trailer towing offered by Ram. The middle of the road is the 3:55 and the best for towing would be the 3:92. Yours is equipped with the 3:21

Tires: By the placard you posted your truck is not equipped with LT tires. This is another reason your truck will underperform when pulling any kind of weight. Easy fix go trade those tires in for some good LT tires before you put too many miles on them.

Payload: 1667lbs. Lets assume you buy that trailer at 6000lbs dry weight here is the math.

6000lbs x 15% Tounge weight = 900lbs

Your weight = assume 180lbs
Your sons weight = assume 90lbs
bikes, camping stuff bbq = 250lbs (it does not take much to load 250lbs)
Weight distributing hitch = 101lbs
this totals = 1521lbs.

your truck can handle 1667 - 1521 = 146lbs from max. This is using dry weight which no matter what you say you cannot use as towing weight (even if you add an additional 1000lbs to the dry weight your so close to your max of your truck and that it is not good.

Again I am being very general here and I don't believe that the weights I typed above are realistic I am going of the posts you made on what you would carry.

Here are some questions for you.

What if your son wanted to bring a friend? you do not have the payload capacity for that.

What about when your son gets a little older and gets bigger or you meet a significant other? You do not have the capacity for that.

Did you add any accessories to your truck such as a cap or tonneau cover?

I am really not trying to be negative here but trying to help you make a decision that will not cost you money upgrading in the future and provide a safe and enjoyable experience for you and your family.

I am literally towing with a similar sized truck that has every towing and payload option offered by Ford in 2009 and when my wife and I shopped for trailers we quickly came to realize that we had to limit our trailer GVR to 7000 or so. That meant a dry weight of no more than 5000-5200lbs.

I am not going to sit here and chastise you should you choose to go heavier than that as it is your money, your responsibility and your safety.

We are more than happy to answer any questions you have to help you gain the knowledge and information to make the best decision for you your family and the general public that would be driving around you.

Best of Luck!

John


Quote:
Originally Posted by spade117 View Post
I get what you are saying about not using the full GVW of the camper, and you may never reach that number, but you will never be at dry weight either. Remember that the battery and propane tanks are not included in the dry weight, and that is usually at least another 100 lbs, which is almost always added to the tongue weight as well since the placement of those items on travel trailers is typically on the front of the trailer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by busterbrown View Post
A lot of defensive conversation. But I'll add a quick comment anyways.



The scales will be very objective with all the numbers. There are no grey lines or "what if's". They will be black and white if the weights are honest and both TV and trailer are loaded and "ready to go camping". It's a good start to see if one has a safe and sound travel rig.



Secondly, I think most here will agree that a trailer's dry weight is meaningless when it comes to answering the ongoing questions of "can I tow this" or "is my TV up for the task". With that said, a packed and ready RV will easily add another 1,000 lbs of towable weight (weight that adds to both the dry tongue weight and dry trailer weight). My Bullet has a dry weight of 6,150 lbs. It has a GVWR of 7,600. After I first season, real world "ready to camp" weight was pretty close to that number. Since we upgraded our TV to a 2500 RAM, we now carry all the toys (inflatable kayaks, grill, extra propane, and tools) in the truck. I have the payload for it. Our prior TV ran out of payload quickly during that first season (1,550 lbs was printed on the placard).



Any further discussion on dry weights vs GVWR vs real weights is like:





Quote:
Originally Posted by 5J's View Post
I think there is just a misunderstanding between a new comer and some well experienced and seasoned folks. The scales will be your friend. The first step you need to do is see where you TV stands on weights. You need to load your truck for a camping trip. Throw in some fire wood, fishing poles and tackle, fill an ice chest with ice and drinks. Go to the local truck stop and top off all your fluids (fuel, washer fluid, etc...). Weigh your truck, you're looking for three weights here, total, front axle and rear axle. While this won't tell you exactly where you'll be it'll get you a good start. Now, you've said you'll be using the Equalizer 4 point hitch, If you already have that throw it on the truck prior to weighing, if not research the weight of that hitch. Add the weight of the hitch to both the total weight of your truck as well as the rear axle weight. The next thing you'll add is the approximate weight of your son, say 100lbs to the total weight from the previous number (his weight will also affect both front and rear axle weights but, there is no way to know exactly how much without actually having him in the truck when you weigh).

Total=scale weight+hitch weight+100

Rear=scale weight+hitch weight

Front=scale weight

These weights will tell you how much more weight (pay load) you can afford to put on your truck, i.e. tongue weight.

Total payload= GVWR-previous total-(GVWR*.1)

The GVWR*.1 will give you a "safety" margin.

Rear payload=GRAWR-previous rear weight

Front--this weight "shouldn't" increase unless you add weight to your truck forward the rear wheels.

The next thing you will do is to calculate the tongue weight of your trailer, only because you don't have one yet. To err on the side of caution always use GVWR for calculations.

Tongue weight=trailer GVWR*.15

If this weight is greater than either of the previously calculated payload numbers your set up should not be used.

To find a trailer that will work for you find the trailer tongue weight by the tongue weight calculation above and compare it to your payload calculations. For safetys sake please don't exceed the truck calculations above.

The final calculation that you want to do is verify the trucks GCVWR is not exceeded.

GCVW=truck GVWR+trailer GVWR

If this number is greater than the truck GCVWR then your set up shouldn't be used.

Please note that you should always calculate for the worst possible scenario and that is why you calculate with GVWR. Can you use curb weights? Yes, but, just know that if you have one extra bottle of drinking water or an extra rock from a gravel road hanging around then your calculations are void.

I hope this helps you understand a little better. I also want to say all these folks are good people and are well seasoned and want to help. They're only concerned about the safety of your family and theirs. Weights are a hot button issue and can be a convoluted topic.

The final thing I want to mention that doesn't get brought up is braking. One of the most important reasons to stay within your weights is stopability. Your vehicle was braking system was also designed around your weight capacities.

Good luck!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 4 View Post
I’m coming to this party a little late but would like to share my experience in hopes it will help. I think my first post on this forum was a similar a “Will this work?” question regarding a possible Ram 1500 Hemi for the used trailer I’d already purchased. The same guys giving you information helped me run the numbers to confirm that I was headed for trouble. I pulled that used trailer home on the flats with my 1999 Dodge Ram 1500 with its 5.9 litre engine and I-have-no-idea gear ratio. I’d used that truck (was purchased new with a “tow package”) for years to tow a smaller trailer and I hated the automatic tranny “hunting” for the right range while climbing hills. I also hated the constant braking (even with trailer brakes) and shifting to 2nd when coming down the mountain switchbacks. That’s why I thought a newer Ram 1500 Hemi would be the hot ticket. I’m sure it would have gone up hills just fine, but being overweight when combined with my “new” larger trailer created a whole new set of potential problems. In my case, since I already had the trailer, I ended up buying a used Ford F-250 which on the surface might seem to be overkill for my 6,800 lb GVWR trailer, but it's an absolute dream going up to 7,000 ft and coming back down. In your case the situation is reversed so you will do well to find the right trailer matched to your truck.
As for adding the weight of food or water please trust me, that approach will last for one or two trips. Depending on what camping facilities you plan to use, many campgrounds do not have potable water spigots ready to hook up your white fill hose. I hate hauling hundreds of pounds of H2O up hills but for me there’s no other option. We pack the trailer with food/drink the night before leaving and it’s so very sweet to back into a nice spot, unhitch, drop levelers, pull out the camp chairs and enjoy a cool one in the shade rather than heading off to whatever store you can find to pay higher-than-home prices for whatever they stock.
You have “hung in there” working this puzzler out with all kinds of weights and capacities and ratios. Make sure you take all the wisdom of this forum into account and you will find the right combination for safe, reliable and enjoyable travels. Have fun camping with your son, it’s been awesome over the years for me and my family.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hankpage View Post
I would like to make a suggestion. Make a father and son outing and have lunch at a truck stop. With full fuel tank and maybe some "stuff you may be taking camping, weigh the truck. Deduct that weight from the GVW on the door jamb sticker. This should get you close to what your true PAYLOAD is. Now deduct 100 lbs. for the hitch and 15% of what YOU feel the trailers weight will be. (10% may not be enough for a controlled towing experience.)

You may be okay with the smaller trailer, but I would be willing to bet the larger TT will put you well over payload and perhaps some other limits.

Waiting to weigh everything after you buy the trailer is like closing the barn door after the horse runs away. Municipal dumps and salvage yards have scales also but not much fun for the kid.

Good luck, enjoy your time with your son and travel safely, Hank


Thank you all for your comments. Even though some may think that I’m not heeding the advice from all of you, I am, and by me officially cancelling my purchase of the camper should go to prove that. I have looked at TONS of campers this week and maybe 20 before I agreed to buy the one I bought. Still through today, I haven’t found a camper I liked better, or even 75% as much as the Keystone Hideout HI29DFS. The combination of floor plan, size, price, accommodations, etc is incredible in that unit, so it’s been very difficult to let it go.

But I listened, and followed your suggestions.

Now, I’m not ever going to be a person who always plays as safe as possible because I like to push the limits.

However, due to your suggestions you’ve made me look a little harder for a camper that I LIKE and that is safe(ish).

Many of you had great recommendations on how to find my vehicles weight, etc and I will do that, but I’m also continuing to shop and continuing to make sure the way I’m calculating everything is CORRECT so I can end up with something safe(ish).

In the next post, I’ll post what I found today and would like someone to confirm my calculations are correct.

Thank you again for your comments and recommendations.
c_l_phillips72 is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 05:31 PM   #47
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,836
If you have your heart set on that trailer and feel that it's the ONLY one you've seen that meets your definition of acceptable. There is an alternative. Look for a 3/4 ton truck that is properly equipped to handle a trailer of that size. There's no reason to deprive yourself of something you feel is the "right" one for you, just upgrade the rest of the equipment to handle the trailer of choice. GM, Ford and RAM all have trucks that are capable of providing safe, efficient towing for that size trailer and depending on the dealer, you may find one that won't cost you a substantial amount to trade into.
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 05:34 PM   #48
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,836
I'd like to propose that the "next trailer selected" be discussed in the TOWING section of the forum. This thread, although in the New Member Introductions section has not been "about that topic". Let's close this one and continue the discussion in the TOWING section.
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline  
Old 02-08-2019, 05:38 PM   #49
c_l_phillips72
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
If you have your heart set on that trailer and feel that it's the ONLY one you've seen that meets your definition of acceptable. There is an alternative. Look for a 3/4 ton truck that is properly equipped to handle a trailer of that size. There's no reason to deprive yourself of something you feel is the "right" one for you, just upgrade the rest of the equipment to handle the trailer of choice. GM, Ford and RAM all have trucks that are capable of providing safe, efficient towing for that size trailer and depending on the dealer, you may find one that won't cost you a substantial amount to trade into.


While I’d like to do that, I literally just bought this truck not even 2 months ago. I’d take a HUGE hit on depreciation, so my only choice now is to find a lighter camper that I like at least a little.
c_l_phillips72 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.