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Old 08-19-2015, 08:45 AM   #21
dcg9381
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So the whole warning to not flush a tank with the valve closed is to simply prevent a liquid overflow condition?
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Old 08-19-2015, 08:56 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dcg9381 View Post
So the whole warning to not flush a tank with the valve closed is to simply prevent a liquid overflow condition?
Well.... yeah or a busted fitting or weak seam... truth is, although the tank is vented out the top... if you over fill it enough that it forces water up the vent pipe you are putting a lot of pressure on the tank and associated fittings. Some of those fittings aren't glued it but are snapped in. POW..


It don't hurt nothing to use the flush with the dump valve closed... until you forget it and pop a fitting or a seam..
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Old 08-19-2015, 09:35 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Javi View Post
Well.... yeah or a busted fitting or weak seam... truth is, although the tank is vented out the top... if you over fill it enough that it forces water up the vent pipe you are putting a lot of pressure on the tank and associated fittings. Some of those fittings aren't glued it but are snapped in. POW..
In older TT's where the toilet was literally just a few inches above the top of the black tank, overfilling under pressure via the black flush could very easily result in a broken toilet and a very nasty geyser in the bathroom.

The other possibility in some of the rigs where the second toilet and a bathroom sink both feed the black tank is that it could easily push stuff up through the p-trap into the sink.

Just another reason to make sure the vent pipes are always clear.

Liquid under pressure takes the shortest path of least resistance.

I would also point out that folks tend to not use pressure regulators on the hoses that they use for the black tank flush. There's a good argument for a bit of extra pressure for a stronger "blast" in this situation, but that also reinforces the need to do so with the drain valve open.
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Old 08-19-2015, 10:03 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by dcg9381 View Post
So the whole warning to not flush a tank with the valve closed is to simply prevent a liquid overflow condition?
As Javi affirmed, that is the intent. But understand the facts behind the warning.

1. Black (and gray) holding tanks are just that. They are not manufactured to contain pressure above normal atmospheric and the weight of the contents.

2. The black tank flush uses hose pressure to drive a little sprinkler kind of nozzle in the tank. The pressure makes the nozzle move randomly about which directs the pressure of the spray everywhere in the tank. That hopefully will result in a nice clean tank.

3. As I mentioned in the previous post, folks have a tendency not to use a pressure regulator on the hose they connect to the black tank flush port. That means that instead of 40 psi max, one could be applying as much as 80 or 90 psi to the flush. I do it myself, especially at home.

4. If you close the drain gate and the liquid rises above the nozzle, you've killed the pressure and motion action. A lot of us will close the gate for a couple of minutes to build up enough liquid in the tank to float away any remaining solids. Generally we don't let the tank fill so much that we can no longer hear the nozzle blasting the walls of the tank.

5. Ultimately, if you close that gate and allow the tank to fill, you've now placed the tank under pressures that it is not built to withstand AND you have the full weight of a full tank in there. (Mine is 36x8.4 which equals about 302 pounds of water. Some of you have bigger holding tanks.) Too much pressure plus all that weight is a recipe for a serious failure.

6. Keystone was notorious for using chintzy vacuum breakers which would break under minimal stress. If you fill the tank with the flush running, you're placing undue strain on the device. If you've already bypassed the vacuum breaker and are using one of the less expensive anti-siphon bibs, it could be similarly stressed. In this case, the vacuum breaker piping then acts as a siphon and things begin to get messy.

My whole point here is to help folks understand that if they choose to take a shortcut, they should have all the facts before doing so. Black tank and drain line leaks are the absolute worst to deal with during a camping trip
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:17 AM   #25
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So I don't entirely understand the function of the valve.
From what I understand it is installed to keep a siphon situation from happening and sending contamination back into the water system ....but it seems to me this is very unlikely. For this to happen...
  • Your black tank would need to be full up to where the spray nozzle is located.
  • With the tank full, a hose hooked up to the Flush System
  • All valves on the water system open
  • Water system loses all pressure
  • Then and only then, could a siphon happen.

Since I only use the spray system once the tank is empty and open...it could not happen with what my procedure is for flushing the tanks.

I have deleted both of the vacuum breakers on my unit (2 black tanks) and replaced with elbows. I do not use any type of anti-siphon on the hose. Last week was the first time used since I made the change and the system works great now!
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Face Down View Post
From what I understand it is installed to keep a siphon situation from happening and sending contamination back into the water system ....but it seems to me this is very unlikely. For this to happen...
  • Your black tank would need to be full up to where the spray nozzle is located.
  • With the tank full, a hose hooked up to the Flush System
  • All valves on the water system open
  • Water system loses all pressure
  • Then and only then, could a siphon happen.

Since I only use the spray system once the tank is empty and open...it could not happen with what my procedure is for flushing the tanks.

I have deleted both of the vacuum breakers on my unit (2 black tanks) and replaced with elbows. I do not use any type of anti-siphon on the hose. Last week was the first time used since I made the change and the system works great now!
I don't believe that there is a pressure check valve on the black flush hose connection. If that is the case, and I am certain that at least some of the rigs don't have them, then there is the possibility of a back flow anytime the liquid level in the tank covers the nozzle. Those that remove the vacuum breaker and replace it with an elbow still have some anti-siphon protection because of the high loop of the plumbing that drains itself when not in use. Those that remove the loop and have a direct line to the tank have a greater risk of back flow because it is only a few inches above the top of the tank at most. It would only take a small momentary build-up of pressure in the black tank to push liquid back through the flush. It's a remote possibility, I agree, but worth taking into account.

It may be possible for a back flow through the flush plumbing which would just pour out of the connection when there is no hose attached for flushing. Since a lot of these connections are now in compartments, that could generate a real mess all on its own.

I am not saying that folks shouldn't make these mods, but rather trying to put all the facts on the table so that people can make fully informed decisions about these things.

FWIW, my black flush is unaltered only because the vacuum breaker has not broken, yet. I am pretty sure my rig is one that does not have a check valve on the black water flush port because I get a good bit of fresh water back when I disconnect the hose. Either that or the check valve is there and has locked in the open position. That fresh water draining out of the piping is one point where a siphon could take place under ideal conditions. (If there is a check valve, it's not doing its job. I should take things apart and see what's what. Might be the ideal time to remove the vacuum breaker and install a better check valve.)
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:06 AM   #27
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Anyone who has used a "redneck credit card" (cut-off garden hose) to fill a gas can will attest, once you get the siphon started, it usually is pretty efficient.

Removing the anti-siphon valve from the toilet and converting that plumbing to a "straight through connection" will "convert the backflow system to a "redneck credit card".....

Imagine sitting in a campground, black tank 3/4 full, the DW flushes the toilet and you suddenly start smelling "black tank contents"... You walk around the side of the camper to find "black ooze" dripping out of the tank flush fitting.

All it takes is enough "pressure in the tank" to push fluid "up the hose to the bend" to start the "redneck credit card" action...

As Steve indicated, if there's no pressure check valve (or a malfunctioning valve) at the hose connection on the side of the trailer (or in a compartment on some "upgraded models"), then you're potentially setting yourself up for a "gooey mess"... Even if there is no "credit card action" there is a direct, open line for sewer gas to flow from the "in tank fitting" up the "now open" 1/2" pipe and out the side of the camper, at least until the "in tank fitting" is covered with liquid.

While I don't "fight odors" from my black tank, I certainly don't want an "open port" on the side of my trailer for those gasses to vent with every flush.
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:50 AM   #28
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Anyone who has used a "redneck credit card" (cut-off garden hose) to fill a gas can will attest, once you get the siphon started, it usually is pretty efficient.
You left out one important part of the "redneck credit card" and that is you need a good "sucker" to get thing started...and I don't see myself doing any sucking to the hose connections on the side of my camper!

Good points though from both you and Steve...the more things we can learn the better off we are to make informed decisions. I am perfectly confident in how I have my system setup now and it works for me. With the combo of the elbow that replaced the vacuum breaker being at least 2' above the top part of the tank, the potential outlet (spray nozzle) probably only having a diameter of .05-.1 and my dump/cleaning procedure...for the life of me I do not see how I could run into a problem.

Happy to report that I just got back from a 10 day trip to Myrtle Beach, with 6 people in the camper and plenty of time to fill <ewe> both tanks. I dumped twice, cleaned out twice and there was no goo or odors emitting from the cleanup connections. Wish I could say the same about the guy who camped in front of me for a couple of days. Nothing like trying to enjoy a meal while they camper in front of you has no donut but just the slinky stuck down the hole and his dump valves open the entire time!
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Old 08-20-2015, 08:16 AM   #29
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You left out one important part of the "redneck credit card" and that is you need a good "sucker" to get thing started...and I don't see myself doing any sucking to the hose connections on the side of my camper!

Good points though from both you and Steve...the more things we can learn the better off we are to make informed decisions. I am perfectly confident in how I have my system setup now and it works for me. With the combo of the elbow that replaced the vacuum breaker being at least 2' above the top part of the tank, the potential outlet (spray nozzle) probably only having a diameter of .05-.1 and my dump/cleaning procedure...for the life of me I do not see how I could run into a problem.

Happy to report that I just got back from a 10 day trip to Myrtle Beach, with 6 people in the camper and plenty of time to fill <ewe> both tanks. I dumped twice, cleaned out twice and there was no goo or odors emitting from the cleanup connections. Wish I could say the same about the guy who camped in front of me for a couple of days. Nothing like trying to enjoy a meal while they camper in front of you has no donut but just the slinky stuck down the hole and his dump valves open the entire time!
The statement in red isn't completely true. That's "one way" to fill the tube with liquid (in the credit card scenario, the other end wasn't accessible) but all it takes for the action to occur is that the hose be "filled with liquid" and at that point, siphoning will occur. Remember that when the foot pedal on the toilet is pushed, there is a "gush of liquid/solid" dumped into the tank. If that "gush" is sufficient to push waste water "up the 1/2" hose to the bend, then the hose is "full enough" to siphon. Sucking or blowing, either way will start siphoning.... Case in point: Remember the guy that could hold his thumb over the end of the "credit card" and "jerk the gas out of the tank" ??? There wasn't any "sucking involved". He did it by creating a vacuum with his thumb while pulling quickly on the hose, filling it with gas to the high point, at which time the siphoning started and gas flowed..... No mouths ever touched most of our "credit card withdrawls".......
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:05 AM   #30
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Look guys.. it would take a perfect storm for the system to siphon if you maintain the location of the elbow a minimum of 16" above the top of the black tank (per instructions). It takes roughly .5 psi to raise a column of water 16" and that ain't happening unless the vent out the top of the trailer is completely plugged and you completely filled the tank and the vent pipe. Plus on many of the 5'ers like mine you would have to fill the 3" drop pipe all the way to the toilet as well..


And the hose bib would have to be open to the atmosphere...



Well that or you would have to suck really, really, really hard on the end of the hose...
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Old 08-24-2015, 06:38 AM   #31
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Even though our Alpine has a tank washout hookup I prefer to use my clear adapter fitting that goes on main outlet dump and reverse wash this way. I can see when tanks are clean and J am not worried about a bad vacuum breaker valve.


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Old 08-24-2015, 11:54 AM   #32
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ChuckS, Howdy;

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Even though our Alpine has a tank washout hookup I prefer to use my clear adapter fitting that goes on main outlet dump and reverse wash this way. I can see when tanks are clean and J am not worried about a bad vacuum breaker valve.


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If there is a "straight shot" into your tank from the hose connection on
your clear adapter that would work well. However, if there is an elbow
between the clear adapter and the tank or the plumbing enters from the
side then you are only cleaning that section of pipe run. The elbow or the
opposite side of the tank will stop any pressurized water from traveling
any further, other than a few inches or will puddle at the end of the tank.
Next time you dump, use your method, then give the clean-out a shot to
see what, if any difference there may be.

hankaye

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Old 08-25-2015, 08:25 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankaye View Post
ChuckS, Howdy;



If there is a "straight shot" into your tank from the hose connection on
your clear adapter that would work well. However, if there is an elbow
between the clear adapter and the tank or the plumbing enters from the
side then you are only cleaning that section of pipe run. The elbow or the
opposite side of the tank will stop any pressurized water from traveling
any further, other than a few inches or will puddle at the end of the tank.
Next time you dump, use your method, then give the clean-out a shot to
see what, if any difference there may be.

hankaye

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My bet is there will be some "stuff" that you will see flowing threw the clear adaptor when the "sani flush" is used even after you flush with you method...

I usually pull the black tank first, let it stop flowing, close it, turn on sani flush and time it for 4 minutes, during this time I pull secondary grey (Kitchen sink island), after 4 minutes has passed I close secondary grey and pull black tank again. Keep it open until flow slows to where it is just the water going in from the sani flush. I close the black one more time for another 4 minutes. Ill go back to the secondary grey if it wasn't completely empty the first pull. After another 4 minute sani flush I once again open up the black and drain till clear then shut off sani flush. Lastly I pull the primary grey and drain till empty. Done deal!!! Seems to work well and my gauges always go to empty. Hope this helps, good luck!
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:51 AM   #34
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Let's do a little comparison (just for grins)....

Drive your tow vehicle, covered with wet mud to a car wash, fill a bucket with soap and water and throw it at the side of your muddy truck. Let it "drain until it stops dripping" and look at the results... Still muddy? Probably.

So now, let's put a few quarters in the car wash. Use the soap selection (low pressure) and spray some soapy water on that same muddy side of the truck. Let it sit until it stops dripping. Still muddy? Probably.

Now, let's use the high pressure spray to try to knock the mud off the truck. Spray it until the "quarters time out" and let it stop dripping. Now, use a clean wash cloth and wipe the side of the truck. Is the wash cloth clean, or does it have some of the remaining mud on it? Let the truck sit until it stops dripping and then drive it to a "sunny spot" and look at the results. Is the truck clean? or is there a "swipe mark" where you wiped it with the wash cloth?

Now, to explain my point: Using low pressure water (filling the tank with clear water), even soap and water with "some pressure" (using the tank rinse system and adding some soapy solution), even using the "high pressure wand" (down the toilet rotary "tank cleaner") most likely isn't going to "clean your tank" completely.....

The best most of us can expect, especially when using 40 PSI regulated water at a campground, to put 4 minutes of water (4 min x 3 gallons per minute) or about 12 gallons of water under low pressure into the tank, won't "clean" the tank. Filling it "FULL" and dumping repeatedly still won't get "all the dirty parts" out of your tank.

Once a black tank has been used, there's going to be remnants of toilet paper, solid waste and remaining liquids that hang up on the probes, get stuck on the rough sawn edges of the vent stack and the toilet dump stack as well as other "not fully level and completely drained" areas of the tank. Not to mention the "soiled residue that adheres to the inner tank walls.... (think of the mud stuck to the sides of your truck)....

My point is that you can't get "inside the tank" to scrub it and mechanically clean all the residue from the tank walls.....

So, consider that it'll never be clean, dump, rinse, add your chemicals/soapy home solutions to the tank (hopefully to help dissolve the "goo" that sticks to the walls and probes) and remind yourself that the first time you use the toilet, it'll be "just like it was before you started cleaning"....... After all, it's made of "black plastic" for a reason.... Most likely, so you can't see what's left after your diligent efforts to remove everything......
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:16 AM   #35
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The cleanest the tank will ever be is before it is ever used. In tank sprayer is the best way to "somewhat" get a tank clean...anything else is just a waste of time and money.

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Old 08-25-2015, 07:49 PM   #36
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Howdy All;

Now ifin y'all really want a clean tank here's yer fella
http://www.allprowaterflow.com/

John, he does the high pressure wash and has a video camera so
you can inspect it when he's done...

hankaye
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:35 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankaye View Post
Howdy All;

Now ifin y'all really want a clean tank here's yer fella
http://www.allprowaterflow.com/

John, he does the high pressure wash and has a video camera so
you can inspect it when he's done...

hankaye
I've seen that website before. He has a "compelling service" for someone who doesn't fully understand the function of a black tank or who is "obsessed with a clean "black tank"....

I'd have to ask: When he's done and the camera "shows the tank is clean" will he store his "tater salad" in it? If not, well, I think I made my point: It's a "poo tank" high pressure clean or not, it's always gonna be a "poo tank" If you get the "big chunks" out and rinse it, it's "clean enough to use as a "poo tank" but no matter what you do, it's still not going to be "tater salad clean"......
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Old 08-26-2015, 07:44 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Let's do a little comparison (just for grins)....

Drive your tow vehicle, covered with wet mud to a car wash, fill a bucket with soap and water and throw it at the side of your muddy truck. Let it "drain until it stops dripping" and look at the results... Still muddy? Probably.

So now, let's put a few quarters in the car wash. Use the soap selection (low pressure) and spray some soapy water on that same muddy side of the truck. Let it sit until it stops dripping. Still muddy? Probably.

Now, let's use the high pressure spray to try to knock the mud off the truck. Spray it until the "quarters time out" and let it stop dripping. Now, use a clean wash cloth and wipe the side of the truck. Is the wash cloth clean, or does it have some of the remaining mud on it? Let the truck sit until it stops dripping and then drive it to a "sunny spot" and look at the results. Is the truck clean? or is there a "swipe mark" where you wiped it with the wash cloth?

Now, to explain my point: Using low pressure water (filling the tank with clear water), even soap and water with "some pressure" (using the tank rinse system and adding some soapy solution), even using the "high pressure wand" (down the toilet rotary "tank cleaner") most likely isn't going to "clean your tank" completely.....

The best most of us can expect, especially when using 40 PSI regulated water at a campground, to put 4 minutes of water (4 min x 3 gallons per minute) or about 12 gallons of water under low pressure into the tank, won't "clean" the tank. Filling it "FULL" and dumping repeatedly still won't get "all the dirty parts" out of your tank.

Once a black tank has been used, there's going to be remnants of toilet paper, solid waste and remaining liquids that hang up on the probes, get stuck on the rough sawn edges of the vent stack and the toilet dump stack as well as other "not fully level and completely drained" areas of the tank. Not to mention the "soiled residue that adheres to the inner tank walls.... (think of the mud stuck to the sides of your truck)....

My point is that you can't get "inside the tank" to scrub it and mechanically clean all the residue from the tank walls.....

So, consider that it'll never be clean, dump, rinse, add your chemicals/soapy home solutions to the tank (hopefully to help dissolve the "goo" that sticks to the walls and probes) and remind yourself that the first time you use the toilet, it'll be "just like it was before you started cleaning"....... After all, it's made of "black plastic" for a reason.... Most likely, so you can't see what's left after your diligent efforts to remove everything......
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
I've seen that website before. He has a "compelling service" for someone who doesn't fully understand the function of a black tank or who is "obsessed with a clean "black tank"....

I'd have to ask: When he's done and the camera "shows the tank is clean" will he store his "tater salad" in it? If not, well, I think I made my point: It's a "poo tank" high pressure clean or not, it's always gonna be a "poo tank" If you get the "big chunks" out and rinse it, it's "clean enough to use as a "poo tank" but no matter what you do, it's still not going to be "tater salad clean"......
Not sure any of us are trying to get out Black "poo tanks" white glove, "tater salad" clean. My post above was just an option that I use and works for me. It gets the big chunks out, at least most of them.... and if it is only 3 gallons per minute (not sure where to look that one up at) I will definitely increase the flush time!!! If 3 gallons per minute is obtained from a water hose wide open at 40psi I am sure that the little nozzles inside the black tank change that flow rate drastically, in the negative direction. But then again I would hate to get in trouble by the water Police during this big drought in Cali...
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Old 08-26-2015, 08:31 AM   #39
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Here's one calculator that give the options for different size hoses and different water pressures: http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Ca...-Hose-Flow.php

If you consider a half inch hose at 40 PSI, you'd get about a 6 GPM flow rate. Run that through the "spin head" in the tank and it will reduce the volume by about 50% (around 3 GPM).

This thread has seemed to "lose perspective" on emptying/flushing the black tank and turned the corner on "cleaning the black tank". My point, at least from my perspective, is this:

1. No matter how much you try, it's still going to be a "dirty tank".
2. None of us (I hope) are going to use the "cleaned tank" as a sanitary vessel, so why focus wasted effort on trying to make it "clean".
3. The first "flush" after cleaning will reintroduce all the "dirty stuff" (but not as concentrated) and essentially make the "clean tank" dirty all over again.
4. No matter how much "scrubbing, cleaning and flushing" one does, it's still going to be a "dirty tank" complete with the smells and "aura" associated with a "dirty tank". (If you don't believe it smells after cleaning, get a little closer, close your lips and breathe in deeply.)
5. You can't "clean it" and "make it anything else".
6. Proper flushing, rinsing and use are the best way to care for any black tank. Keep the contents liquid, don't let the tank dry out, use chemicals/home concoctions for odor control and don't focus on "cleaning" (an impossible task) as much as proper emptying/flushing.

So, if anyone has another "perspective" about the black tank, I suppose you're free to disagree with the above philosophy of just what is a "poo container".....

For me, when using the RV, I pull the handle, let the brown stuff escape, close the handle and add about 4 or 5 gallons of water through the toilet foot pedal. There's no need to spend time or waste water "flushing and cleaning" because it's going to "fill with the same stuff" with the first use. On the last emptying at the end of the season (or if prolonged storage is anticipated) flush the tank (to empty as much solid residue as possible) and head home. For me (others may not agree) obsessing about cleaning the black tank and getting "everything out with every flush" is wasted effort. It's just going to fill up again with the same stuff so a 2 or 3 or 10% residual just won't make the tater salad taste any different.
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Old 08-26-2015, 08:58 AM   #40
SteveC7010
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The cleanest the tank will ever be is before it is ever used. In tank sprayer is the best way to "somewhat" get a tank clean...anything else is just a waste of time and money.

I took the time to watch this 25 minute video, and there's clear and compelling argument to use the in-tank spray systems based on the experiments performed in the film.

Clear points proven:

1. The in-tank spray systems are the only way to clean the walls of your tank. Refilling the tank from the dump end does not really remove any significant amount of debris.

2. The in-tank spray systems do the best job of clearing out a good deal of whats on the floor of the tank. You may have to close the valve and let the spray run for a couple of minutes and then dump again to accomplish this very acceptable level of clean.

3. A clear fitting at the dump fitting doesn't give a true picture of what's been removed from the tank unless you use the in-tank spray cleaner.

One point I would argue is that the Sewer Solution is an effective tank cleaning device. It's not. Its primary function is as a water flow driven pump to dump your tanks in situations where the standard 3" dump hoses can not be used. I had two of them and used them at my last home. They both broke over time and I did not replace them. (#2 was a warranty replacement and did not hold up any better than the original.) They do work as advertised, but use a lot of water. We were on a well there, and had volume issues so the running the Sewer Solution was not ideal. The spray clean out capabilities of the Sewer Solution are effective only in the piping near the dump port. Like other similar devices, it doesn't put any useful spray up in the tank. I discounted it as a cleaning device then and even more so now.

The real purpose of cleaning the tank here is to keep as much debris off the sensors as possible and to prevent any chance of a DBP (dreaded black pyramid.) When we had the Sunline, the black tank was only about 7" tall and did not have a built-in spray system. But the toilet was only inches above the tank so I could use one of the spray wands very effectively. With the Cougar, the tank is taller, but it has sprayer systems. After I dump and rinse with the in-tank sprayer, I look down the toilet with a flashlight. All I usually see is water and the tank floor. If there's no remaining visible debris and the water runs clear at the dump fitting, I am more than satisfied.

"Tater salad" stays in the fridge!

Now, I'm really beginning to wonder why there's no spray system in the gray tanks, especially the one that serves the galley. The buildup of food and grease on the walls and floor must be really ugly. I don't have the time to install an in-tank spray system right now, but it has been placed on my list of mods for next season. I am going to take a closer look at cleaning agents in the next couple of weeks.
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