Hughes Autoformers

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I'm getting in "over my level of understanding" about electrical distribution outside a single structure, so I'm not suggesting this quote I found is accurate, hell, I don't have a clue to whether it's even close to accurate... Anyway I found this and it "may be the concern addressed by NEC's stand against the autoformer:

"The problem is voltage rise along the neutral, which is the same as voltage loss along a hot conductor and raises the load end of the neutral above ground.

Since the input and output neutrals are tied together in an autotransformer, any voltage rise on the incoming neutral will be passed on to the output neutral. Cascade several autotransformers in a row where the neutral is only grounded at the source panel and you can have a lot of voltage on the neutral by the time you reach the end of the line.

A better solution when designing a power system is to use a full transformer instead of an autotransformer at the intermediary points to keep the input and output neutrals separate, then use a local ground at the transformer to return the output neutral to zero voltage.

This is what the NFPA is addressing, not using an autotransformer at the final point of use."

I interpreted the comment, "cascade several autotransformers in a row..." to mean "several RV's parked close together, all using an autoformer and connected to the same leg of the campground power grid".....

I interpreted it the same way. I think the concern is multiple folks using them, not the "just me" person. As parks get more and more folks, can't afford to upgrade their electrical systems, I can see this...sort of, as a valid concern. But again, doesn't matter what I think, a person that owns an autoformer or anything else; if the NEC codes are adopted as the guidelines (law) for a city....it is what it is.

[flybouy]

I think there's a lot of "vernacular confusion going on" here. The Hughes Autoformer is not a autotransformer. An autotransformer has one set of windings common to both line and input. That can create a line to neutral imbalance.

A standard 2 coil winding transformer will not. Transformers of this type are in nearly every electronic device like your television, surround sound receiver, laptop charger, the transformer for your t'stat and doorbell at home, for electric pet fences, farm electric fences, et.

I think someone is capitalizing on the confusion to make something out of a "non issue". I wouldn't be surprised to see Hughes start adding another sticker on their units stating "Complies with NFPA and NEC codes ...."

I recall the same types of confusion years ago when aftermarket LED tail lights and aftermarket composite headlights hit the market. The manufacturers started shipping cards to place in the glovebox that stated something to the effect of "Meets DOT requirements ...".

[Laredo Tugger]

I talked with the technical rep at Hughes Autoformers today and also sent him the codecity.com doc and the NEC statement both posted by JRTJH.
After he catches up from the holiday weekend,he promised a response to these articles.
He did mention that RV park power pedestals are equipped with breakers and if the Autoformer was pulling to much power from that pedestal it would trip the breaker. I have never tripped one yet.
He also said that their company is aware of the new NEC regulations and has hired an independent arbitrator testing firm to confirm the product test done prior to initial marketing of the Autoformer.
He added the fact that every city,county, and municipalities building/code compliance division in the country would have to adopt this particular code for it to become law in their jurisdiction(s). Some may and some may not, and park owners would never know different either way unless informed by those departments.

Not sure where this is going but I would like to avoid turning my Autofromer into a $533 boat anchor. "Just me"
RMc

[Laredo Tugger]

OK, got a response with explanation from the general manager at Hughes.
The following is from their website and refers to some question and comments previously made in this thread. The follow up report by Mike Sokol,an RV Electric expert is pending. There is some personal comment from him after the website info.

Run Your Autoformer With Confidence – A Note Regarding NFPA70

First, the NFPA 2020 proposal is not law, it is not a regulation, it has no legal authority. The NFPA is a civilian-run organization that publishes suggested safety regulations, which may or may not be adopted at some point by governmental agencies.

So, who’s is trying to ban a product that has saved RVers literally millions of dollars? Who wants to eliminate a product that has made RVing safer and more enjoyable? Who’s trying to tell over 150,000 Hughes users and the American RVer they can’t protect themselves?

The latest effort to ban ‘autotransformers’ is being pushed by board members of the NFPA and a competitor. One’s an executive of national campground sites, the other sells electrical equipment to RV parks and the third person spreading around misinformation is a competitor company. Why this guy? Probably because we’ve introduced a product that is far superior to their old surge protection units. The Power Watchdog. People are out to serve their own interests rather than those of the American RVer.

Technically the NFPA has been recommending ‘autotransformers’ be banned since 1971, so this latest publicity stunt is nothing new. Fortunately, the NFPA board is only an advisory committee and up till now, no one has taken their advice!

First thing, the Hughes Autoformer is not an ‘autotransformer’, (more on this later). But for simplicity’s sake, we are appealing this recommendation anyway and it will probably be repealed once and for all. Science and logic will win over ridiculousness and greed.

Secondly, their claim is false on its face. These NFPA board members say autotransformers cause, “…severe additional stress to surrounding electrical infrastructure not accounted for in the load calculations…”

Now, to the science. Let’s say a park owner “calculated” for ten campsites, for ten 50amp coaches, for ten 50amp breakers, how can the Hughes Autoformer place “severe additional stress” when no site can draw more than the “calculated” 50 amps because there’s a 50 amp breaker? You get 10% more power on whatever resistive load is running (Ohm’s law). However, on a modern RV 90% or more of the loads are inductive (air conditioning motors, microwaves, pumps). If the park customer is using 8,000 watts and 10% is resistive, that’s 800 resistive watts, the Autoformer boosts that 10%, that’s 80 watts extra out of an 8,000-watt draw, only 1% more! Hardly “severe additional stress”. If only one of the above mentioned 10 RVs had an Autoformer, that’s .001% more than his neighbors in the park. And again, ultimately no one can get more than the park owners “calculated” because of the park breakers. Ridiculousness!

The simple fact is, park owners don’t want to talk about low voltage or explain to their customers why the guy with the Hughes Autoformer still is burning bright and has AC running cool when everyone else is suffering a brownout. All voltages sag when the RVers have their ACs and other necessities running. Things start getting damaged at 108 volts and lower. Most surge protectors shut down at 102 -4 volts. Meanwhile, the Hughes Autoformer is changing unusable high amps-low volts into usable high volts-low amps, thus saving equipment and blowing at least 25% more AC air. Rather than having to explain why some RVs are still working, the park owner would rather everyone suffer equally and most importantly, suffer in silence. Woodall’s Campground Management magazine mentions the proposed rule this way, “This action helps RV park owners prohibit their use (autotransformers) by having a code article to point to”. By the way, by providing unusable power, a park owner can save thousands of dollars a year.

Autoformers can actually save power in the park. With the Hughes Autoformer, everything runs more efficiently. AC units pump out at least 25% more air flow with a 10% voltage boost (search amp curves vs motors). This extra airflow allows the AC units to cycle on and off more often than their low voltage neighbors. Because the Hughes user’s AC is off more often, they may be using the least amount of power in the park.

The NFPA is a safety committee. RVers are far safer when their appliances and cables are not overheating due to low volts and excessive amperage.

The final kicker, the NFPA recommends banning autotransformers, the Hughes Autoformer is not even an autotransformer It’s called the Hughes “Autoformer”, not the Hughes autotransformer. It’s a transformer that “automatically” boosts your voltage when needed, thus the combination of the words auto and transformer. An autotransformer has a single winding inside and the Hughes product has four windings, a different technology entirely.

So, if someone looks at your grey box and says autotransformers are banned, tell them no, some board members recommend they not be connected. Secondly, you have a Hughes Autoformer which is not banned because it’s not an autotransformer.



basically, if you have a resistive load (anything with a heating element; toaster oven, coffee pot, hair dryer, etc) you could possibly get more watts. However, on the inductive load side of things (anything that has a magnetic field; motors, AC, frig, washer, dryer, microwave, etc (all the biggest things), you could be drawing fewer amps as you are getting higher voltage.

RMc

[sourdough]

Wow, this is more interesting than I thought it would be!

Hughes is talking about NFPA, National Fire Protection Association, and their "recommendations". They dispute what they say and that's fine, the problem as I see it is the NEC. That is NOT the NFPA nor a "suggestion" when adopted by ordinance by a city. In my experience a city adopts the NEC, the entire code, not parts of it. They do not review every adaptation or change. If it becomes a part of the NEC it becomes a city ordinance/regulation/law.

If it were me, and I had a Hughes Autoformer, I would care less about what Hughes said, they have a vested interest and are obviously concerned. I would instead contact the NEC and get the skinny on their take. They write the NEC and others adopt it - see where they are coming from.....and hurry, I think I want to get one....

[Bill-2020]

Interesting thread to say the least. So damage starts at 108v, my EMS kicks in (or off) at 102v. Too late? What if the voltage was hovering at about 104 volts for a short period? Damaged a/c? Too bad Hughes doesn’t have an all-in-one, EMS and Autoformer.

(BTW Happy 53rd Anniv. Danny, just noticed it)

[Laredo Tugger]

The Hughes Autoformer is a "all in one" EMS.

[Bill-2020]

Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger

The Hughes Autoformer is a "all in one" EMS.

Oh! They used to not be. A quick check on their site says, "...has the same performance and reliability of the RV2130 but now has advanced surge protection built in!" Thanks for the heads up.

[Laredo Tugger]

Yes,I also found discussions about running the autoformer in "tandem" with a surge protector, in the early days of production I guess. Now they advertise both protections (volt/amp boost with surge protection).
RMc

[Bill-2020]

Too bad it doesn’t appear to have a display (wired or wireless) with real time data. I like my SouthWire EMS for its wireless display. I’m too OCD in some instances.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Bill-2020

Interesting thread to say the least. So damage starts at 108v, my EMS kicks in (or off) at 102v. Too late? What if the voltage was hovering at about 104 volts for a short period? Damaged a/c? Too bad Hughes doesn’t have an all-in-one, EMS and Autoformer.

(BTW Happy 53rd Anniv. Danny, just noticed it)

Thank you. Have so much fun anymore they seem to fly by..

[Laredo Tugger]

Hughes gave me a volt meter that plugs into a wall socket for display and the unit has a series of check lights on the front of it to check connections when you plug in. Between the remotes for the television,radio and fireplace, TPMS tire monitors,propane tank monitor and flashlight batteries, I can do without another wireless display gadget that needs a battery. "Just me"
BTW the batteries for the TPMS monitors (1632) are always out of stock in stores, I think they are popular with those electronic cigarette gizmos. I'm guessing here.
RMc

[SummitPond]

Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger

From the product brochure:
HOW DOES THE AUTOFORMER WORK?

At first we are tempted to say ‘very well!’ (Although this may not be the only answer you are looking for!) Autoformers are used in commercial applications to stabilize voltage and lower the operating cost of equipment. When the park or input voltage is below 113 volts, the output is 10% over the input (boost mode). When the input is over 115 volts, the output is 2% over the input (by-pass mode). Additionally, all models have some surge and spike protection.

The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park. It does not affect the park or source voltage, or make electricity. What it DOES is change the voltage (amperage relationship), lowering the amperage requirement by raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage with lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better service is enjoyed from your RV.

An Autoformer running at full output (30 amps) will use approximately one amp, but will cause appliances to cycle on less often and run cooler. This results in using less total power from the park.

I know product literature will promote the product,but this explanation is pretty clear. Somebody at the NEC needs to learn to read.
RMc

Can an EE explain how this works?

I don't understand how something can claim to deliver more power and yet use less. From what I remember (and I've forgotten more than I've ever learned) AC power is calculated using a combination of current, voltage and a power factor. From what I recall the power factor adjusts the actual power delivered to the circuit from the theoretical maximum of the circuit due to the AC voltage and current being out of phase.

A transformer (ignoring losses) will "balance" current and voltage so the output power (energy per unit time) is the same as the input (i.e., if the transformer winding ratios dictate an increase in voltage for the secondary winding then current in the secondary winding will decrease proportionally). In actuality the input power is somewhat larger; look at your power adapter for your phone or computer (current X voltage) and compare the input requirements versus the output delivered. This seems to be born out by the statement above indicating the autoformer will use 1A over and above whatever is required.

I agree that the autoformer will be limited on current draw to whatever the circuit breaker allows. What I don't understand is the statement regarding delivering more power but using less.

[MerlinB]

There has been a lot of discussion about the Hughes Autoformer on the RVElectricity facebook group. Mike Sokol, who is the RV electricity expert has set up a rather extensive testing lab and he is getting ready to run a test to prove or disprove all of these different theories that are being tossed about.

You can read about his project here: https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electric...ormer-testing/

It should be interesting.

[Bill-2020]

Originally Posted by SummitPond

Can an EE explain how this works?

I don't understand how something can claim to deliver more power and yet use less. From what I remember (and I've forgotten more than I've ever learned) AC power is calculated using a combination of current, voltage and a power factor. From what I recall the power factor adjusts the actual power delivered to the circuit from the theoretical maximum of the circuit due to the AC voltage and current being out of phase.

A transformer (ignoring losses) will "balance" current and voltage so the output power (energy per unit time) is the same as the input (i.e., if the transformer winding ratios dictate an increase in voltage for the secondary winding then current in the secondary winding will decrease proportionally). In actuality the input power is somewhat larger; look at your power adapter for your phone or computer (current X voltage) and compare the input requirements versus the output delivered. This seems to be born out by the statement above indicating the autoformer will use 1A over and above whatever is required.

I agree that the autoformer will be limited on current draw to whatever the circuit breaker allows. What I don't understand is the statement regarding delivering more power but using less.

My dad was an EE (probably several times over in his life-long career with IBM, electronics were a passion of his) and would be able to break this down into terms most would understand. Sometimes our conversations about electronics, electrical currents, etc., would have an ending of, "...you've just gotta believe." Meaning, there are some things in the electrical world we can't totally understand, but it happens/works. Like electrons moving. We can't see them, but by George we know they are there (if you've ever had the zap of an energized circuit!). I get what you are asking, and I can't explain it to you either. But this may be one of those "you've just gotta believe" situations.

[ChuckS]

The NEC code is a set of guidelines with zero enforcement ability. It’s up to the local community as to what they choose to incorporate into there rules.

Bottom line is the Hughes unit can’t draw more than the breaker is rated at. And by code the breakers should be rated at 120% of their rating.

There currently isn’t a grid network in any RV park that can monitor individual amp draw at each pedestal

Wow this could be a new job position for work amping for me at an RV Park we frequent. I could monitor and test amp draw at each pedestal through the day...

Much better job than cleaning the crappers

[Bill-2020]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

The NEC code is a set of guidelines with zero enforcement ability. It’s up to the local community as to what they choose to incorporate into there rules.

Bottom line is the Hughes unit can’t draw more than the breaker is rated at. And by code the breakers should be rated at 120% of their rating.

There currently isn’t a grid network in any RV park that can monitor individual amp draw at each pedestal

Wow this could be a new job position for work amping for me at an RV Park we frequent. I could monitor and test amp draw at each pedestal through the day...

Much better job than cleaning the crappers

Amp Police.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

The NEC code is a set of guidelines with zero enforcement ability. It’s up to the local community as to what they choose to incorporate into there rules.

Bottom line is the Hughes unit can’t draw more than the breaker is rated at. And by code the breakers should be rated at 120% of their rating.

There currently isn’t a grid network in any RV park that can monitor individual amp draw at each pedestal

Wow this could be a new job position for work amping for me at an RV Park we frequent. I could monitor and test amp draw at each pedestal through the day...

Much better job than cleaning the crappers

The above is where I said there could be issues. I've worked with city "electrical inspectors" across a large area on all kinds of projects. All projects must meet "code" before being signed off on. I had one individual complain to me that he had to remove a bunch of work because of 2 things 1) it wasn't signed off on by a licensed electrician prior to going to the city for inspection and 2) it didn't meet "code". The city doesn't hire a firm to develop an entire electrical code just for them, they adopt the NEC as local regulation and their local electrical inspector enforces it.

As far as trying to "monitor" the power draw in a park or check an autoformer, there is no need. If the NEC prohibits an autoformer, which it apparently now does, then all one has to do is see one plugged in and know they are in violation, what it's doing or why will be irrelevant.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by sourdough

The above is where I said there could be issues. I've worked with city "electrical inspectors" across a large area on all kinds of projects. All projects must meet "code" before being signed off on. I had one individual complain to me that he had to remove a bunch of work because of 2 things 1) it wasn't signed off on by a licensed electrician prior to going to the city for inspection and 2) it didn't meet "code". The city doesn't hire a firm to develop an entire electrical code just for them, they adopt the NEC as local regulation and their local electrical inspector enforces it.

As far as trying to "monitor" the power draw in a park or check an autoformer, there is no need. If the NEC prohibits an autoformer, which it apparently now does, then all one has to do is see one plugged in and know they are in violation, what it's doing or why will be irrelevant.

Danny, I'll refer back to my post #8. When was the last time you ever heard of an Electrical Inspector "driving around checking for autoformers"? They show up to sign off on a permit. That process was done when the CG installed the pedestal.No inspector that I've ever met (literally several hundred) would care less what you plug into that outlet.

Now, if some "community" want's to start requiring people to pull a permit to plug in then the CG owner will need to call a developer and sell off the land.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Danny, I'll refer back to my post #8. When was the last time you ever heard of an Electrical Inspector "driving around checking for autoformers"? They show up to sign off on a permit. That process was done when the CG installed the pedestal.No inspector that I've ever met (literally several hundred) would care less what you plug into that outlet.

Now, if some "community" want's to start requiring people to pull a permit to plug in then the CG owner will need to call a developer and sell off the land.

No, I highly doubt a city inspector would worry about any of that inside a private RV park unless there was an incident or complaint. I'm thinking within the realm of possibility is a city, which licenses and RV park, prohibiting the use of autoformers then passing that on to the RV parks for enforcement. That could become a mish mash of you know what. That's the reason I had mentioned earlier that an interested party might want to dig into the NEC and the hows/whys of that particular section. If this is new, which it sounds like, it doesn't have legs yet but, as we've seen in so many cases of overreach, it would not surprise me one bit for parks to start prohibiting them because they were told to, whether it's merited or not. I'm hoping Hughes has some sort of proof that could get the code reversed but I assume the NEC had electrical concerns, and validations, before they proposed and passed that segment. I highly doubt they jumped on the wagon and did it because NFPA was biased and had lots of folks that didn't like Hughes. We'll see. It has generated a lot of conversation as I hoped it would. It's one of those little things, passed unbeknownst to those that it affects, which one day just hits us and we say "where did that come from"; much too late to do anything about it - and it probably is with this as well. But, in the end, it's better to be aware than be caught unaware IMO.