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Old 09-07-2020, 12:08 PM   #1
sourdough
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Hughes Autoformers

I'm throwing this out as a heads up to owners of the Hughes Autoformers for their information or research if not aware of it.

Just got around to reading my June 20 copy of Trailer Life. In the RV Clinic section Hughes Autoformers are discussed and the controversy over their usage. Never had one and never really thought about it but I know some on the forum have mentioned using them. Seems the issue is how the Autoformer works, which boosts voltage for the end user but at the same time the boost comes at the cost of increased amperage draw from the shorepower supply. This supposedly can then draw needed power from other campground occupants and overload the campground power supply and wiring.

It states "the 2020 National Electrical Code (NEC) NFPA 70, Code 551 Part II, section 551.20(E), states that "autotransformers shall not be used."

Hughes Autoformers disputes the code and says NFPA "is not law, is not a regulation, it has no legal authority." The article further states "However, most municipalities adopt the NEc code as a minimum standard, making it law, thus the user and park owner could be civilly or criminally liable for damages caused by the violation."

Never knew. I do know our city, and every one I worked with in my working life, has adopted the NEC standards. If you think about it I can see the potential issue; when the power grid is overburdened causing the voltage to drop, the autoformer kicks in to draw more power to up the voltage for the end owner. That then just increases the load on an already overloaded grid.

Anyway, just thought I'd share. Not trying to start a debate or criticize - I had been thinking about getting one. Just an fyi to log if anyone wants to.
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Old 09-07-2020, 01:48 PM   #2
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Danny, I don't have a copy of the article but that sounds like BS to me. So my 30 Amp autoformer kicks in to "boost" the voltage, it cannot draw more amperage than the 30 Amp pedestal can supply. In fact, the use of the autoformer reduces the amperage available to the camper because of using the transformer to boost the voltage and it's inherent losses.

The autoformer is just a "buck/boost" transformer with a relay to choose between windings depending on the input voltage. Buck/boost transformers have been used on commercial air conditioners for many decades. My autoformer uses less "power" than if I turned on the microwave.
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Old 09-07-2020, 02:17 PM   #3
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I tried to pull up the digital copy of TL but it wants me to pay and/or subscribe so I didn't do it. I used to get a digital copy but haven't in quite some time.

I think the issue is the 2020 NEC Code that states that "autoformers shall not be used". Hughes took issue with that but as it further states if municipalities adopt the NEC Codes for their city, and all that I've been involved with use them, then that would prohibit their use in that city.

I don't have one so did not dig into it. Just posted it because it might impact someone. I figure the best thing to do is pull up the NEC and those particular sections and see what it says. If that section does in fact say that "autoformers shall not be used" as it says it does I guess it's then the individual's choice to abide by that, or at least be aware of it.
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Old 09-07-2020, 02:19 PM   #4
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Can’t say as I agree with this... the Hughes unit isn’t gonna draw more current than the circuit breaker at the pedestal is rated for and isn’t gonna rob the RV park grid of power for the other users....

https://hughesautoformers.com/autofo...-does-it-work/
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Old 09-07-2020, 02:41 PM   #5
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The real problem as I see it is more and more RVs are now setup with 50 amp service to run 2 or 3 AC units, microwave, two TVs , fireplace , etc... the RV parks are not keeping up with the demand being imposed upon their existing grid circuits..

If 10 RVs setup on 50 amp service and all run both ACs, etc their will be a voltage drop... the guy that has the Huges unit will not see his L1 and L2 drop below 120 per leg while the others will see a drop accordingly.
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Old 09-07-2020, 02:48 PM   #6
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Chuck, I suspect what you say might have some truth to it, but referring to Hughes about the safety and effects of their controversial product might be akin to calling on Johns Manville how their product stacks up in the health department. Maybe we'd benefit more by researching some independent studies and asking the real results, unbiased.
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Old 09-07-2020, 03:27 PM   #7
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I dun-know??? I have a 30 amp Hughes I carry for emergencies, those very rare times we may end up at a campsite that has only 30 amp and not 50 amp service. All I know is, when I used it with my previous camper, which was 30 amp, I never had any problems with it (except the app on my phone updated and then the bluetooth never worked again). But I never had issues with actual power in the camper.

I'll hang on to mine and use it again, if the need arises. More than likely, it will get used when plugged into power at a friend or relative's house as there are fewer and fewer campgrounds with only 30 amp service, any more.
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Old 09-07-2020, 04:08 PM   #8
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I can just envision it ..... 50 cop cars, sirens wailing and lights flashing followed by 20 electric utility trucks and one car with a civil servant (maybe a public service commissioner) crest the hill at high speed and slide to a stop at the campground office.

They surround the office Guns drawn. The CG manager emerges and over the hull horn blare the words "OK, give it up now! Tell us who has the Autoformer plugged in! Their drawing 3 more amps than allowed!" The poor manager speaks timidly, terrorized and fearing for his life "He's , he's, he's in site 150."

As the entourage of vehicles slowly approach a sea of fifth wheelers with enough exterior lights and tvs outside to be seen from the space station. The sound of the tires crushing the gravel muffled by the thousands of air conditioners, microwaves buzzing, golf cart chargers buzzing, radios blurring, washer/dryers spinning, they sneak up on the offender unheard.

Surrounding site 150 they confiscated the offending Autoformer, handcuff the offender and throw him in the car. As they speed off they warn one and all not to make that mistake.

Now, nobody would believe that story.
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Old 09-07-2020, 04:55 PM   #9
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Nice Marshall !
I was about to write a post with the same "character" as yours,but I like your version better.
I have a 50 amp Hughes Autoformer. I have been camping several years and have yet to see a sign at check in "Autoformers Prohibited".I am presently working on mounting the unit out of view to the trailer frame, behind the skirt on the I beam near the 50 amp plug. The only thing anyone would see will be a 50 amp cord from the the pedestal going to the trailer. Meaning the Autoformer will be hidden from view and not seen. I doubt very much campgrounds have the ability to show how much current each campsite is using. If they check mine they will see nothing unusual and in fact will find a lower usage than normal. I also think the article mentioned by sourdough is misleading and errant.Nothing personal Danny,thanks for the post/thread.

If anyone is interested I talked with a Hughes representative the other day and he said they are working on a mounting bracket for the 30 and 50 amp units that would be available in about two months for around $40.
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Old 09-07-2020, 04:58 PM   #10
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^^^^^. Although seemingly mundane, I thought this topic might generate some conversation - on a Monday, Labor Day weekend.

Although I do understand how the autoformer works my interest was the NEC apparently revising their codes to prohibit them.

Although I can't imagine it happening......there they are, the cops, utility trucks, all...crest the hill into "mom and pop rv park". As they crest the hill overlooking the large RV park with hundreds of RVs, many are dark due to the burned out electronics caused by the low/fluctuating voltage. Some lights are dimmed, batteries running low....it's been several hours since the (incident) occurred. But there, yes, right over there, THOSE people, the ones with the bright lights, 60" TV glowing....wife shouting "the nachos are ready in the microwave" while blow drying her hair as the 3 AC units almost push her out the door. As the enforcement approaches, wary of these "manipulators of power", they know, yes KNOW......they have finally found "THE AUTOFORMERS"!!! Movie sequel to follow.
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Old 09-07-2020, 04:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
I can just envision it ..... 50 cop cars, sirens wailing and lights flashing followed by 20 electric utility trucks and one car with a civil servant (maybe a public service commissioner) crest the hill at high speed and slide to a stop at the campground office.

They surround the office Guns drawn. The CG manager emerges and over the hull horn blare the words "OK, give it up now! Tell us who has the Autoformer plugged in! Their drawing 3 more amps than allowed!" The poor manager speaks timidly, terrorized and fearing for his life "He's , he's, he's in site 150."

As the entourage of vehicles slowly approach a sea of fifth wheelers with enough exterior lights and tvs outside to be seen from the space station. The sound of the tires crushing the gravel muffled by the thousands of air conditioners, microwaves buzzing, golf cart chargers buzzing, radios blurring, washer/dryers spinning, they sneak up on the offender unheard.

Surrounding site 150 they confiscated the offending Autoformer, handcuff the offender and throw him in the car. As they speed off they warn one and all not to make that mistake.

Now, nobody would believe that story.
Well thought and well written!
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Old 09-07-2020, 05:52 PM   #12
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The Autoformer does not and can not draw any more amperage/voltage than provided by the park pedestals. It acts as a "transformer" and stores power to deliver to the trailer if the power source drops below a certain amount,it does this without using more power including the recharge of the coils. It also offers surge protection.
The problem is?
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Old 09-07-2020, 05:58 PM   #13
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Maryland Marshall, our own resident Jack Webb!
Sorry, but that was just a little humor for us old farts, maybe Lennie Briscoe for the rest.
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Old 09-07-2020, 06:05 PM   #14
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Sure surprised me !!!

http://www.codebookcity.com/codearti...ticle551-1.htm

Check item #4...

I'm not suggesting or criticizing either side of the topic. But NEC apparently has said, "You can't".... My question would be, suppose you're using an autoformer and have an electrical "condition" that causes damage to the trailer or to the park grid.... What would your insurance company say ??? Like towing overweight, would the insurance pay and drop you? pay and increase your rates? not pay and say you were out of the scope of the policy ???

I don't know and wouldn't suggest any response is better than another...

As I said, sure surprised me to see the prohibition in writing in the code.....
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Old 09-07-2020, 06:23 PM   #15
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From the product brochure:
HOW DOES THE AUTOFORMER
WORK?
At first we are tempted to say ‘very well!’ (Although this may not be the
only answer you are looking for!) Autoformers are used in commercial
applications to stabilize voltage and lower the operating cost of
equipment. When the park or input voltage is below 113 volts, the output
is 10% over the input (boost mode). When the input is over 115 volts, the
output is 2% over the input (by-pass mode). Additionally, all models have
some surge and spike protection.
The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park. It does not affect
the park or source voltage, or make electricity.
What it DOES is change
the voltage (amperage relationship), lowering the amperage requirement
by raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage with
lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better
service is enjoyed from your RV.
An Autoformer running at full output (30 amps) will use approximately
one amp, but will cause appliances to cycle on less often and run cooler.
This results in using less total power from the park.

I know product literature will promote the product,but this explanation is pretty clear. Somebody at the NEC needs to learn to read.
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Old 09-07-2020, 06:34 PM   #16
sourdough
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger View Post
From the product brochure:
HOW DOES THE AUTOFORMER
WORK?
At first we are tempted to say ‘very well!’ (Although this may not be the
only answer you are looking for!) Autoformers are used in commercial
applications to stabilize voltage and lower the operating cost of
equipment. When the park or input voltage is below 113 volts, the output
is 10% over the input (boost mode). When the input is over 115 volts, the
output is 2% over the input (by-pass mode). Additionally, all models have
some surge and spike protection.
The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park. It does not affect
the park or source voltage, or make electricity.
What it DOES is change
the voltage (amperage relationship), lowering the amperage requirement
by raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage with
lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better
service is enjoyed from your RV.
An Autoformer running at full output (30 amps) will use approximately
one amp, but will cause appliances to cycle on less often and run cooler.
This results in using less total power from the park.

I know product literature will promote the product,but this explanation is pretty clear. Somebody at the NEC needs to learn to read.
RMc

As I tried to point to, and as John has said, the NEC code says you "can't" use one on "the grid". What grid is that? The ones where the governing bodies adopt the NEC. Who are those? Virtually every one I've ever dealt with. The manufacturer materials have no, zero, bearing on the code or the adoption by any municipality - it's advertising. Code, adopted by a city, is law.

I have NO dog in this fight. I wanted to post this because I was surprised and knew folks used them. Ramifications for a user? Probably small to nil. But, BUT in the areas so power starved as we see in some areas, what lengths might be gone to to find "the one"?

Like everything else in the world we all do what we feel we need to do. I shared this so we do what we do with as much knowledge as possible - I didn't know.
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Old 09-07-2020, 06:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger View Post

If anyone is interested I talked with a Hughes representative the other day and he said they are working on a mounting bracket for the 30 and 50 amp units that would be available in about two months for around $40.
RMc
Amazon's description says; "Installs into your RV electrical system (with the optional internal mounting installation kit sold separately) or plugs into the park's power pole."

Looking at the length of the power cord (on Amazon), you wouldn't be able to tuck it up and away from sight unless you hugged the pedastal. But what Amazon says about a internal mounting option may be what you're looking for.
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Old 09-07-2020, 06:40 PM   #18
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I got an email from a factory representative at Hughes not to long ago.
I just sent him an email with the attached doc that John posted.
I will let you all know what their take is on this topic. I am sure it will be their meeting agendas.
RMc
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Old 09-07-2020, 06:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger View Post
I got an email from a factory representative at Hughes not to long ago.
I just sent him an email with the attached doc that John posted.
I will let you all know what their take is on this topic. I am sure it will be their meeting agendas.
RMc

Laredo, I suspect their response will be what I referenced in the 4th paragraph of my initial post. What you need to do is have them explain how their "belief" will then supersede any city that adopts the NEC code - which prohibits them which then becomes local law.
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Old 09-07-2020, 07:01 PM   #20
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I'm getting in "over my level of understanding" about electrical distribution outside a single structure, so I'm not suggesting this quote I found is accurate, hell, I don't have a clue to whether it's even close to accurate... Anyway I found this and it "may be the concern addressed by NEC's stand against the autoformer:

"The problem is voltage rise along the neutral, which is the same as voltage loss along a hot conductor and raises the load end of the neutral above ground.

Since the input and output neutrals are tied together in an autotransformer, any voltage rise on the incoming neutral will be passed on to the output neutral. Cascade several autotransformers in a row where the neutral is only grounded at the source panel and you can have a lot of voltage on the neutral by the time you reach the end of the line.

A better solution when designing a power system is to use a full transformer instead of an autotransformer at the intermediary points to keep the input and output neutrals separate, then use a local ground at the transformer to return the output neutral to zero voltage.

This is what the NFPA is addressing, not using an autotransformer at the final point of use."


I interpreted the comment, "cascade several autotransformers in a row..." to mean "several RV's parked close together, all using an autoformer and connected to the same leg of the campground power grid".....
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