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Old 06-30-2019, 08:32 AM   #1
jloewe
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Batteries don't stay Charged

Hi - New here and maybe just can't locate correct thread.

We have a 2016 Bullett 272BHS. Last fall, the inverter went out, got it replaced just under the warranty period. About a month later, the batteries would not hold charge and we took it back to dealer. Inverter was again changed, but not warrantied. Dealership also checked batteries which they said showed proper out put and charge. Husband took out batteries for winter, kept in heated garage, on cardboard on shelf, same as every other year.

So, now this spring, he charged them up with battery charger and put in camper. First time out, we were with full hookups. Second time out though, no hookups and batteries were extremely low after first 24hours or so. Ran the generator and charged them up, but by next morning not enough power left to bring in awning and slide.

They are Interstate Deep Cycle Batteries. They are almost 3 years old, but have been taken care of really well. We do keep it plugged in when at home in summer once I load the fridge and freezer.

Wondering if anyone has had this problem.

Thanks
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Old 06-30-2019, 08:55 AM   #2
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Batteries definitely need to be tested. If you have the tools, volt meter and hydrometer you can do a pretty god job at home. Otherwise most auto parts stores will do a battery check at no charge.
To check batteries, remove the positive lead going to the trailer and the lead connecting the two batteries. Wait about an hour for the batteries to settle after being on the TT converter, charging (if you don't let the batteries rest you'll get a false reading). Check the voltage of each battery. Should be 12.6vdc or better. Hydrometer will test each cell. Weak cells will cause a battery to lose charge sooner. Easy to do but remember you're dealing with sulphuric acid. Nasty stuff if you get it on your skin, in your eyes or on your clothes, so be careful!!
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Old 06-30-2019, 09:27 AM   #3
sonofcy
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Originally Posted by jloewe View Post
Hi - New here and maybe just can't locate correct thread.

We have a 2016 Bullett 272BHS. Last fall, the inverter went out, got it replaced just under the warranty period. About a month later, the batteries would not hold charge and we took it back to dealer. Inverter was again changed, but not warrantied. Dealership also checked batteries which they said showed proper out put and charge. Husband took out batteries for winter, kept in heated garage, on cardboard on shelf, same as every other year.

So, now this spring, he charged them up with battery charger and put in camper. First time out, we were with full hookups. Second time out though, no hookups and batteries were extremely low after first 24hours or so. Ran the generator and charged them up, but by next morning not enough power left to bring in awning and slide.

They are Interstate Deep Cycle Batteries. They are almost 3 years old, but have been taken care of really well. We do keep it plugged in when at home in summer once I load the fridge and freezer.

Wondering if anyone has had this problem.

Thanks
If they were stored without being on an intelligent battery maintainer and allowed to go very low (less than 50%) they could be permanently damaged. If when you use them, if you didn't keep them above 50% they could be damaged. If they are not real deep cycle batteries get new Trojan T105's. You can tell they are real because only Amp Hours are mentioned, NO cranking amps regardless of how battery is labeled. They can call it deep cycle even if it isn't. 2 T105's properly maintained can last up to 5 years. Of course having a proper charger is assumed and the charger (converter) that comes builtin to most/all RV's is NOT correct.
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Old 07-01-2019, 09:01 AM   #4
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Of course having a proper charger is assumed and the charger (converter) that comes builtin to most/all RV's is NOT correct.
Huh? Are you saying the converter in contemporary RVs cannot properly charge/maintain deep cycle batteries?
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Old 07-01-2019, 12:14 PM   #5
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Huh? Are you saying the converter in contemporary RVs cannot properly charge/maintain deep cycle batteries?


I’m wondering that myself.
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Old 07-01-2019, 01:29 PM   #6
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Huh? Are you saying the converter in contemporary RVs cannot properly charge/maintain deep cycle batteries?
That's right. They consistently undercharge. When you combine that with the fact the dealer supplied battery is not even a true deep discharge it's no wonder they die quickly. The easy test to determine if the battery is a deep discharge is to see if the label says amp hours and does NOT say anything about cranking amps. The majority of RVers who know about this use Trojan T105 batteries. At least 2 since they are 6V golf cart size batteries. This gives you 225 amp hours. The 2 12 volt batteries that came in my RV totalled 150 AH. Since you should not draw the batteries down more than 30% to 50% the reality is I have 75 to 112 AH and originally had 50 to 75 AH. That is good for 6 hours at the 1/3 level and my 2 Honda 2,000 watt generators charge them back up in another 6 hours. If you want in-depth education on battery charging and solar try reading https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/...rging-puzzle-2 then read his 2018 post about turningh down the voltage. I have read ALL his articles some more than once. I was an industrial electrician and quickly found out I didn't know squat about batteries He is a character but he is also living off grid. Also check out http://www.jackdanmayer.com/rv_electrical_and_solar.htm. They don't always agree, but use your brain and apply critical thinking to figure it out. I think Handy Bob is more up to date, he is still adding to the website but I don't see any activity on Jack's.
I am a full timer, I do not own a house anymore. I will be installing 600AH of lithium, over 1,000Watts of solar and a 3,000 watt 120Amp inverter charger. My RV has a residential fridge and uses 1.5Kwh per day so the setup I am installing will allow me to boondock 3 or 4 days with no generator and no sun. That is why I had to get educated in all things battery and solar. I am still learning.
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Old 07-01-2019, 01:50 PM   #7
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What is your evidence that they undercharge? I've been using deep cycle batteries with my RVs for years and I've never noticed this. Let's assume we're talking about true deep cycle batteries (not starter batteries) and that we're talking about the onboard converter and not solar.
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Old 07-01-2019, 02:15 PM   #8
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Here is the part of Handy Bob's article that is most telling.

VOLTAGE: For the sake of simplicity, I am only going to talk about the requirements of standard flooded wet cell lead acid batteries, which is what most of us use. The major points apply to all types of batteries, but the actual numbers will vary. It is very important for you to research the charging requirements of your batteries if you are using any other type and make sure that your charging system provides what they need, or you could end up damaging them by over charging or never getting them fully charged, which will also damage them. Battery manufacturer’s specifications say that a standard 12 volt wet cell battery needs to be charged to between 14.4 to 14.8V and then held there for some time before it will be fully charged. The Trojan Battery company says 14.8V daily charge (at 77 degrees F) and Interstate will tell you over 15V. Trojan’s 2010 Users Guide has a new chart that shows you should actually vary the voltage depending on the amps you supply for charging and even higher voltages are recommended. Of course they recommend temperature regulation. So all of those out there who are telling you 14.8V is too high do not know what they are talking about. How long it takes to get the charge in depends on how far it was discharged. Trojan says to keep charging until a hydrometer test shows that the battery is charged and not one charger available today can do this. The best chargers can do a reasonable guess at state of charge by providing constant voltage and watching the amps taper as the battery fills to tell them when the battery is full. However, they rely on whatever the designer or programmer gives them for guidelines and are only as good as that data. Many do no work worth a hoot. A fully charged battery can be maintained at a full state by applying a 13.2 – 13.6 volts “float” charge. All of the talk about how many amps a charger puts out means nothing. It is the volts (pressure) that you need to push the amps (volume) into a battery. VOLTS, VOLTS, VOLTS!! Also, the amps pushed into a battery at a higher voltage contain more power than those at a lower voltage. Remember, volts times amps equals watts, so amps pushed at 10% higher volts give you 10% more watts. Therefore, the power stored in the upper range of a battery’s charge is greater, so it is very important to get a full charge. Low voltage DC is not easy to get through wire without losing power due to voltage drop or resistance. It is huge problem in an RV. Use big wires and short wiring runs to get around this. It is good practice to use one or even two sizes bigger wire than recommended to limit voltage drop. This charge voltage has to actually reach the battery, not just the output terminals on a charger. If you cannot get your batteries up to 14.4 volts (14.8 is better & faster) with whatever charging system you have and then keep them there while pushing amps in for more than an hour or two, your batteries will never be full. Added in 2014: Please realize that the message here is for off grid living, not for being plugged in at an RV park. A converter that is set lower but left plugged in 24/7 may eventually fill a battery. It may not, too, but it doesn’t need to be set at 14.8V to work. Buy a hydrometer if you want to know. Also be aware that the 14.8V recommendation came from Trojan and has proven to be a bit too high. You will find later pages where I address this.

I do have a Trimetric TM-2030-RV so I can see what is happening. The reason most RVers have a problem is they are not plugged in long enough to fully charge the battery at low voltage simply because they move frequently and aren't plugged in long enough. Operating the slides and jacks is the last thing you do and that really drains the battery and again at the new site.

If you are not a full timer or only have a TT or smaller 5er without slides or hydraulic/electric legs then you may not notice an issue, but more and more folks are getting bigger and bigger rigs every year and battery failures are increasing. Trojan has said that all the failed batteries they have seen were consistently undercharged. The Trojan site will show you that these batteries are good for 1,000 cycles. A full timer might go through that many in 2 or 3 years while a weekender plus 2 weeks vacation could allow a well maintained battery to last 10 years.
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Old 07-01-2019, 03:46 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by sonofcy View Post
Here is the part of Handy Bob's article that is most telling.

VOLTAGE: For the sake of simplicity, I am only going to talk about the requirements of standard flooded wet cell lead acid batteries, which is what most of us use. The major points apply to all types of batteries, but the actual numbers will vary. It is very important for you to research the charging requirements of your batteries if you are using any other type and make sure that your charging system provides what they need, or you could end up damaging them by over charging or never getting them fully charged, which will also damage them. Battery manufacturer’s specifications say that a standard 12 volt wet cell battery needs to be charged to between 14.4 to 14.8V and then held there for some time before it will be fully charged. The Trojan Battery company says 14.8V daily charge (at 77 degrees F) and Interstate will tell you over 15V. Trojan’s 2010 Users Guide has a new chart that shows you should actually vary the voltage depending on the amps you supply for charging and even higher voltages are recommended. Of course they recommend temperature regulation. So all of those out there who are telling you 14.8V is too high do not know what they are talking about. How long it takes to get the charge in depends on how far it was discharged. Trojan says to keep charging until a hydrometer test shows that the battery is charged and not one charger available today can do this. The best chargers can do a reasonable guess at state of charge by providing constant voltage and watching the amps taper as the battery fills to tell them when the battery is full. However, they rely on whatever the designer or programmer gives them for guidelines and are only as good as that data. Many do no work worth a hoot. A fully charged battery can be maintained at a full state by applying a 13.2 – 13.6 volts “float” charge. All of the talk about how many amps a charger puts out means nothing. It is the volts (pressure) that you need to push the amps (volume) into a battery. VOLTS, VOLTS, VOLTS!! Also, the amps pushed into a battery at a higher voltage contain more power than those at a lower voltage. Remember, volts times amps equals watts, so amps pushed at 10% higher volts give you 10% more watts. Therefore, the power stored in the upper range of a battery’s charge is greater, so it is very important to get a full charge. Low voltage DC is not easy to get through wire without losing power due to voltage drop or resistance. It is huge problem in an RV. Use big wires and short wiring runs to get around this. It is good practice to use one or even two sizes bigger wire than recommended to limit voltage drop. This charge voltage has to actually reach the battery, not just the output terminals on a charger. If you cannot get your batteries up to 14.4 volts (14.8 is better & faster) with whatever charging system you have and then keep them there while pushing amps in for more than an hour or two, your batteries will never be full. Added in 2014: Please realize that the message here is for off grid living, not for being plugged in at an RV park. A converter that is set lower but left plugged in 24/7 may eventually fill a battery. It may not, too, but it doesn’t need to be set at 14.8V to work. Buy a hydrometer if you want to know. Also be aware that the 14.8V recommendation came from Trojan and has proven to be a bit too high. You will find later pages where I address this.

I do have a Trimetric TM-2030-RV so I can see what is happening. The reason most RVers have a problem is they are not plugged in long enough to fully charge the battery at low voltage simply because they move frequently and aren't plugged in long enough. Operating the slides and jacks is the last thing you do and that really drains the battery and again at the new site.

If you are not a full timer or only have a TT or smaller 5er without slides or hydraulic/electric legs then you may not notice an issue, but more and more folks are getting bigger and bigger rigs every year and battery failures are increasing. Trojan has said that all the failed batteries they have seen were consistently undercharged. The Trojan site will show you that these batteries are good for 1,000 cycles. A full timer might go through that many in 2 or 3 years while a weekender plus 2 weeks vacation could allow a well maintained battery to last 10 years.
Ron, is Handy Bob's article also dated to the 2010 date listed for the chart? That seems a little dated to me. Surely things have changed in 10 years.
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Old 07-01-2019, 03:58 PM   #10
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Not sure what 2010 is referring to but it doesn't matter for several reasons.
First he updated that article in either 2019 or 2018 as he said in the article.
Second, chemistry doesn't change.
Third if batteries or chargers changed in a way to make them incompatible with the batteries already out there or chargers already out there then the chargers and/or the batteries would come with instructions to tell you to only use x batteries with this charger or y charger with this battery. NOTE, we are not talking about AGM, GEL, LITHIUM etc, just FLA over time.
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:14 PM   #11
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I just turned the converter back on after running the battery down to 84%. It did not start at 14.4 volts as it is supposed to according to the owners manual. The voltage started at 13V and is now at 13.6 and 89%. I turned the converter on about 30 minutes ago. It might be that their documentation is wrong where it says 14.4V until the battery is 90%.
The big mystery is that this documented behaviour is not in keeping with everything else I have read. Here is one of many identical descriptions of how it should work.

The lead acid battery uses the constant current constant voltage (CC/CV) charge method. A regulated current raises the terminal voltage until the upper charge voltage limit is reached, at which point the current drops due to saturation. The charge time is 12–16 hours and up to 36–48 hours for large stationary batteries. With higher charge currents and multi-stage charge methods, the charge time can be reduced to 8–10 hours; however, without full topping charge. Lead acid is sluggish and cannot be charged as quickly as other battery systems. (See BU-202: New Lead Acid Systems.)

Lead acid batteries should be charged in three stages, which are [1] constant-current charge, [2] topping charge and [3] float charge. The constant-current charge applies the bulk of the charge and takes up roughly half of the required charge time; the topping charge continues at a lower charge current and provides saturation, and the float charge compensates for the loss caused by self-discharge.

During the constant-current charge, the battery charges to about 70 percent in 5–8 hours; the remaining 30 percent is filled with the slower topping charge that lasts another 7–10 hours. The topping charge is essential for the well-being of the battery and can be compared to a little rest after a good meal. If continually deprived, the battery will eventually lose the ability to accept a full charge and the performance will decrease due to sulfation. The float charge in the third stage maintains the battery at full charge. Figure 1 illustrates these three stages.

Just another reason to love lithium. The charging algorithm for them is 'give em hell' I will be able to recharge 600AH from 0 to full in 5 hours with either a 2,000 watt Honda generator or my solar panels. The charge curve is a straight line!!!
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:34 PM   #12
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Hi - New here and maybe just can't locate correct thread.

We have a 2016 Bullett 272BHS. Last fall, the inverter went out, got it replaced just under the warranty period. About a month later, the batteries would not hold charge and we took it back to dealer. Inverter was again changed, but not warrantied. Dealership also checked batteries which they said showed proper out put and charge. Husband took out batteries for winter, kept in heated garage, on cardboard on shelf, same as every other year.

So, now this spring, he charged them up with battery charger and put in camper. First time out, we were with full hookups. Second time out though, no hookups and batteries were extremely low after first 24hours or so. Ran the generator and charged them up, but by next morning not enough power left to bring in awning and slide.

They are Interstate Deep Cycle Batteries. They are almost 3 years old, but have been taken care of really well. We do keep it plugged in when at home in summer once I load the fridge and freezer.

Wondering if anyone has had this problem.

Thanks
The batteries are probably dead. If the label says anything about cranking amps then it is NOT a deep cycle battery. Yes they are allowed to mislabel. That kind of battery usually lasts about 3 years unless very lightly used. Also did you install a proper battery meter like a Trimetric TM-2030-RV to make sure the battery never goes below 50% and 30% if you can manage it. If not then it probably did go below 50% and the lower it goes the shorter the life. I think you can kill one of those with just 3 100% to 0% cycles. They are designed for only 1,000 50% cycles.
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:43 PM   #13
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Here is a link to an Interstate publication that shows the effect of discharging the battery at various levels - page 4.
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:45 PM   #14
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I don't see the link
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:55 PM   #15
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I don't see the link
Ha!! Sorry! I'm carrying on another conversation and flat forgot to attach the link...here it is (I hope) -

https://www.intechtrailers.com/image...nce-Manual.pdf
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Old 07-01-2019, 05:04 PM   #16
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Ha!! Sorry! I'm carrying on another conversation and flat forgot to attach the link...here it is (I hope) -

https://www.intechtrailers.com/image...nce-Manual.pdf
Yep, 50% gives 1,000 cycles. If you can muster the self discipline only going to 25% gives you 2,200 cycles or 100 extra 50% equivalent cycles.
Trojan also reports 1,000 cycles but then why wouldn't they as they are the actual suppliers of the core.
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Old 07-07-2019, 08:10 AM   #17
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One of the issues I have with "technicians" is their inability to properly troubleshoot the 12VDC system. I too, on a 2017 Cougar, had dead batteries. Well, under warranty so I left things alone for the "technician". New batteries. Batteries went dead, again. This time I said enough. I isolated the batteries from the power supply and measured the output. About 5 VDC. Called "technician" and he questioned my ability to read a meter (I am a licensed aircraft mechanic). Technician appears the next day, measures the output (with the batteries connected) and states all good. 12.5 VDC he said (the converter output is 14.5VDC). So, I took him through entry-level troubleshooting and isolated the batteries. He finally got it through his thinking process. He replaced the converter. Bottom line-test the converter output again with the batteries isolated either by disconnecting them or through the switch and measuring at the converter output lugs, or, disconnect leads from the batteries and measure the output. Either way the batteries need to be taken out of the loop. Lastly, these WFCO power supplies are not the most reliable made and if your rig was like my Cougar, you have WFCO box, and I would not be surprised if that replacement is also no good.
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Old 07-07-2019, 08:47 AM   #18
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We have Raptor 5er toy hauler. Our batteries died and we're replaced last year. I asked the interstate battery dealer what lifespan I should expect, he said 3 years. The first batteries lasted 4 years so I thought this was acceptable. So we go on vacation this year and the brand new batteries had low voltage. And with electric/hydraulic jack's you can't put the jack's down without fully charged batteries. So I bought a battery charger that I could leave in the RV. I'm going to take more tools the next vacation we go on to see if I can find the current draw (even though I turn the battery disconnect off).
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Old 07-08-2019, 03:54 AM   #19
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"I'm going to take more tools the next vacation we go on to see if I can find the current draw (even though I turn the battery disconnect off)."

Here is part of the problem. Many of these new RVs will not entirely disconnect the batteries when you turn off the master switch. It has wiring bypassing the switch to keep certain items powered. Control electronics and things like that. If you don't disconnect your batteries they will be drawn down in a few days. If you store it they will be damaged and life will be severely shortened.
I installed another master disconnect that will completely isolate the batteries so I don't have to physically remove the main wire. Before I installed the switch I had replaced the nut holding the wire to the terminal with a wing nut to make it a "tool-less" disconnect. Now with the switch I don't have to touch the terminals. Much nicer.
I recommend the dual Trojan T105's as well. Much better batteries, much better reserve capacity.
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:37 AM   #20
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"I'm going to take more tools the next vacation we go on to see if I can find the current draw (even though I turn the battery disconnect off)."

Here is part of the problem. Many of these new RVs will not entirely disconnect the batteries when you turn off the master switch. It has wiring bypassing the switch to keep certain items powered. Control electronics and things like that. If you don't disconnect your batteries they will be drawn down in a few days. If you store it they will be damaged and life will be severely shortened.
I installed another master disconnect that will completely isolate the batteries so I don't have to physically remove the main wire. Before I installed the switch I had replaced the nut holding the wire to the terminal with a wing nut to make it a "tool-less" disconnect. Now with the switch I don't have to touch the terminals. Much nicer.
I recommend the dual Trojan T105's as well. Much better batteries, much better reserve capacity.

Many is, in reality, ALL (EVERY) trailer with a OEM battery disconnect switch. RVIA requires that certain safety devices be powered "at all times". That means that in order to get financing and "across state line" shipping permits (to deliver your trailer from Indiana to where your dealer's business is located) they have to meet RVIA guidelines and have that "gold shield" next to the door.

That means that ALL (EVERY) trailer manufactured for commercial sale that has a factory installed battery cutoff switch that intentionally leaves some items powered in the trailer and WILL drain the battery in storage, usually within 4-7 days.

It's not "many or most" but EVERY trailer manufactured with a battery cutoff switch AND an RVIA certification...... Your "gubmint" at work.........
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