Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Fleet | Keystone RV Models > Fifth Wheels
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-20-2017, 06:30 AM   #21
gearhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Liberty, Texas
Posts: 5,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javi View Post
I reckon the only way to learn it... is to live it. [emoji6]

Javi
Ain't that the truth!
I'm on truck #3 in 4 years.
__________________
2018 Ram 3500 Laramie CC DRW LWB 4X4 Cummins Aisin 3.73
Reese Goosebox 20K
2018 Heartland Landmark 365 Oshkosh
2008 Bigfoot 25C9.4 LB Cabover
gearhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2017, 06:36 AM   #22
rhagfo
Senior Member
 
rhagfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD1 View Post
Hi all, just wondering if anyone out there tows a Cougar with an F-250. I have ordered an F-250 gasser and am looking an a Cougar 336 BHS the GVWR is 12,235 and the pin weight of 1835. everything appears to be within limits, I know it depends how it is loaded, but I am not new to weight and balance.
Well I hope you have read all the post.
Yes the gas will move that 5er, it will just do it best with the 4.30 (good choice) and will need to rev on the hills. Just do the right thing out of the box and get the F350 SRW.

Hope you enjoy towing heavy with you new TV.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
rhagfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2017, 07:14 AM   #23
larry337
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lagrange OH
Posts: 446
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Probably closer to tangelos vs tangerines or seeded vs seedless oranges ???

Just don't forget that Ford "slipped in" that "downgraded transmission" in the 2017 F250 gas truck.....
John the transmission you're referring to is a beefed up version of the very reliable 6r80. Ford engineers decided the f250 doesn't need the massive 6r140 that is designed to handle 1400 lbs/ft of torque. By using a lighter transmission and deeper first gears overall first impressions have been good. Better zip and fuel economy. It should be a very reliable transmission if used within the designed specs. I personally would still rather have the F350 in this case.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
__________________


2017 Ford F350
2015 Cougar 337FLS
larry337 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2017, 09:17 AM   #24
lacofdfireman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: St. George
Posts: 15
Also remember the difference between a 3/4 ton and a 1 ton SRW is literally 1 leaf spring in the rear. Same brakes, same trans same everything except that 1 leaf spring. So throw a set of airbags on your 3/4 ton and don't worry about it. Now if your not comfortable still then you need a dually. You'll never feel as stabile in a SRW as you will in a DRW.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
lacofdfireman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2017, 09:26 AM   #25
larry337
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lagrange OH
Posts: 446
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacofdfireman View Post
Also remember the difference between a 3/4 ton and a 1 ton SRW is literally 1 leaf spring in the rear. Same brakes, same trans same everything except that 1 leaf spring. So throw a set of airbags on your 3/4 ton and don't worry about it. Now if your not comfortable still then you need a dually. You'll never feel as stabile in a SRW as you will in a DRW.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
This is simply not true. The 2017 Super Duty has been completely redesigned. Not only does the F 250 have a different transmission, depending upon whether the tow package is ordered it has a completely different rear axle too. The base F 250 comes with a Sterling rear axle. The F 350 comes with a Dana rear axle. If you order the HD tow package on the F 250 you will get the Dana.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
__________________


2017 Ford F350
2015 Cougar 337FLS
larry337 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2017, 09:35 AM   #26
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,841
Not to argue, I can't (and am not trying to) say that the F250 isn't capable. Rather my point is that the transmission that has been available from 2011 through 2016 is not being installed in the gas models of the 2017 F250. Whether that "new" transmission will work well or not remains to be seen, after owners start using the transmission "at the upper limits of its capacity". With the old transmission, a gas truck never even came close to working the transmission at its limits......

To explain what I'm trying to convey more fully,

I'm certainly no transmission engineer, but from my understanding of transmissions, the 61r80 has a torque converter/internals rated at 800 ft pounds. The 61R140 has a torque converter/internals rated at 1400 ft pounds. Apparently the torque converters in both transmissions use a ratio of 1:1.8 which means (I think) that the torque of the engine is actually "multiplied by 1.8" by the torque converter. So, the torque produced by the 6.2l engine (430@3800 RPM) when multiplied by 1.8 would apply 774 ft pounds of torque to the transmission internals rated at 800 ft pounds max.

My point is that the F350 transmission is rated at 1400 ft pounds, almost twice as "heavy" as the new F250 transmission. The "new G transmission may well "handle all that the 6.2l engine can produce in stock form". But it won't be amenable to adding a power chip without putting the transmission "over its rated input torque". That's a significant "downgrade" from the transmission that's standard in the 2011-2016 models. In stock form, the 61R80 transmission in the F250 is able to take the engine's torque, but it can't be upgraded. In the F350, that's not the situation as the transmission is rated at almost two times the input torque.

As for the lower first gear, it's true that the transmission will "start the pull" better than the 61R140's numerically different gearing, but with the 4.30 rear axles, all the "engineers" on the Ford forums are saying that it's a "wash" and the first gear ratio in the "new G transmission" isn't necessary.

ADDED: My concern, for what it's worth, for the OP's benefit, is that he is planning to use his truck "AT THE UPPER LIMIT" of its specifications with a 12,300 pound trailer in tow. So, when towing in that fashion, he's going to be "maxing out" the transmission in an F250 while with the F350, he's got "oodles of capacity" left in reserve.

Like Larry337, I'd opt for an F350 with that trailer in my plans. Gone are the days of using the argument: "It's the same as an F350. Starting with 2017, they are "similar but very different" trucks......
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2017, 09:39 AM   #27
larry337
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lagrange OH
Posts: 446
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Not to argue, I can't (and am not trying to) say that the F250 isn't capable. Rather my point is that the transmission that has been available from 2011 through 2016 is not being installed in the gas models of the 2017 F250. Whether that "new" transmission will work well or not remains to be seen, after owners start using the transmission "at the upper limits of its capacity". With the old transmission, a gas truck never even came close to working the transmission at its limits......

To explain what I'm trying to convey more fully,

I'm certainly no transmission engineer, but from my understanding of transmissions, the 61r80 has a torque converter/internals rated at 800 ft pounds. The 61R140 has a torque converter/internals rated at 1400 ft pounds. Apparently the torque converters in both transmissions use a ratio of 1:1.8 which means (I think) that the torque of the engine is actually "multiplied by 1.8" by the torque converter. So, the torque produced by the 6.2l engine (430@3800 RPM) when multiplied by 1.8 would apply 774 ft pounds of torque to the transmission internals rated at 800 ft pounds max.

My point is that the F350 transmission is rated at 1400 ft pounds, almost twice as "heavy" as the new F250 transmission. The "new G transmission may well "handle all that the 6.2l engine can produce in stock form". But it won't be amenable to adding a power chip without putting the transmission "over its rated input torque". That's a significant "downgrade" from the transmission that's standard in the 2011-2016 models. In stock form, the 61R80 transmission in the F250 is able to take the engine's torque, but it can't be upgraded. In the F350, that's not the situation as the transmission is rated at almost two times the input torque.

As for the lower first gear, it's true that the transmission will "start the pull" better than the 61R140's numerically different gearing, but with the 4.30 rear axles, all the "engineers" on the Ford forums are saying that it's a "wash" and the first gear ratio in the "new G transmission" isn't necessary.
I mean this with the utmost respect, you are the last person on this board I care to argue with lol. I was merely pointing out the new transmission may have a place in the lineup. And I also said I would go with the F350. [emoji482]

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
__________________


2017 Ford F350
2015 Cougar 337FLS
larry337 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2017, 10:33 AM   #28
lacofdfireman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: St. George
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by larry337 View Post
This is simply not true. The 2017 Super Duty has been completely redesigned. Not only does the F 250 have a different transmission, depending upon whether the tow package is ordered it has a completely different rear axle too. The base F 250 comes with a Sterling rear axle. The F 350 comes with a Dana rear axle. If you order the HD tow package on the F 250 you will get the Dana.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
I stand corrected if I'm wrong but when I bought my 07 Duramax 3/4 ton they told me the only difference between a 3/4 and a 1 ton was literally 1 leaf spring. Same engine same trans same gearing unless special ordered by the customer or dealer. Maybe it's different in a brand new truck. Guess I was speaking for older vehicles. But then again maybe the salesman didn't know what he was talking about either. Love my 07 Duramax. Plenty of power to pull anything I'd want to pull.
lacofdfireman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2017, 11:00 AM   #29
larry337
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lagrange OH
Posts: 446
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacofdfireman View Post
I stand corrected if I'm wrong but when I bought my 07 Duramax 3/4 ton they told me the only difference between a 3/4 and a 1 ton was literally 1 leaf spring. Same engine same trans same gearing unless special ordered by the customer or dealer. Maybe it's different in a brand new truck. Guess I was speaking for older vehicles. But then again maybe the salesman didn't know what he was talking about either. Love my 07 Duramax. Plenty of power to pull anything I'd want to pull.
Yes in a lot of cases you would be right. [emoji106]

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
__________________


2017 Ford F350
2015 Cougar 337FLS
larry337 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2017, 12:07 PM   #30
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,841
Quote:
Originally Posted by larry337 View Post
I mean this with the utmost respect, you are the last person on this board I care to argue with lol. I was merely pointing out the new transmission may have a place in the lineup. And I also said I would go with the F350. [emoji482]

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
No argument from me... I agree with you, it looks like Ford is "downgrading" the F250 to a "lighter duty, fill the niche SuperDuty"... It reminds me of the late 70's/early 80's when Ford introduced the "F150 HD" which was a "heavier than normal" F150 with a GVW between the F150 "half ton" and the F250 "3/4 ton".
From what I read on the internet (gotta be the truth, eh?) Ford is marketing the F150 as a "crossover truck" suitable for soccer moms, commuting and occasional towing/truck duties. The SuperDuty line is the "use it all the time like a truck" lineup. From what I'm reading, Ford is "separating out" the F250 as the "lower end, cheaper to buy" segment, so downgrading the transmission to "fill the gap" in performance, weight and cost makes sense, especially for "light duty use".

If I remember correctly, the CAFE fuel mileage requirements will include the SuperDuty trucks (I think next year) so Ford can "gain a little Fleet MPG" with the transmission change, increase "out of the gate" performance and lower cost with the new transmission. It's a "win/win" for those who don't use the truck at full capacity, only tow occasionally or use the truck for transportation more than for towing/hauling.

One thing that will change, and you made that comment a few posts back, is that the F250 and the F350 are now "arguably" not the same truck with a different badge, at least in the "gas engine models'...
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2017, 06:13 PM   #31
Bingo 57
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Black Forest
Posts: 102
F-250 - v- f-350

Don't know all the tec stuff, but I'm pulling an 2016 Cougar XLITE with a 08 F-250 SD, V-10 gasser. The only modification I'ed done to the truck is I installed a set of "Tembrins" right after I got the truck in 07 yes I said 07, the unit was on the market early. I did this for pulling a 20 foot stock trailer. The unit came equipped with the trailer package. I love the trainee in the rig, in trailer mode the downshifting down hill is fantastic. I'm still averaging 11.5 MPG with the XLITE. With the stock trailer loaded I was getting 10.3 MPG. Millage isn't the best but the unit was paid for.
JB
Bingo 57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 05:42 AM   #32
Stircrazy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Kamloops, BC
Posts: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomD1 View Post
We still have more time to look for an RV. I would rather not go the 350 route unless I absolutely have to.
Just question, why? I bought the 330 which is a tad lighter than the 336 but the pin weight loaded still came in 500 lbs over the posted one. with the wife kids dog in the truck we were 300 lbs over the gvw so we traded in on a 350 diesel.

the 250 and 350 are pretty much the exact same truck so why don't you want to go the 350 route and then you'll be able to tow the trailer you want instead of settling for another?

especially if you are buying a new truck anyways

Steve
Stircrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 06:59 AM   #33
Outback 325BH
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Highland, IL
Posts: 512
Not to throw another wrench into this, but...

The drivetrain doesn't care about payload. As long as you aren't going past GCWR, the transmission is irrelevant.

Rear springs and differential housing is what matters with regard to payload. The axles contained within and the ring/pinion don't care about payload because no weight is placed on them. Same with the transmission.

Total weight being moved however does matter... which is where GCWR comes into play.

I know all numbers should be respected, however I am trying to address the payload-vs-transmission argument which is silly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Outback 325BH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 07:09 AM   #34
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outback 325BH View Post
Not to throw another wrench into this, but...

... As long as you aren't going past GCWR, the transmission is irrelevant...

Total weight being moved however does matter... which is where GCWR comes into play.

I know all numbers should be respected, however I am trying to address the payload-vs-transmission argument which is silly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
First of all, if you'd taken the time to "do the numbers" you'd see that the F250 gas truck GCWR is 19,500. With the truck "filled with family" it'll be at GVW (10,000) and very likely will be overloaded beyond the GVW. And, with that trailer in tow at GVW (12,300) that adds up to 22,300 pounds. So, the GCWR does come into play as you stated and it matters.....
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 07:30 AM   #35
Outback 325BH
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Highland, IL
Posts: 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
First of all, if you'd taken the time to "do the numbers" you'd see that the F250 gas truck GCWR is 19,500. With the truck "filled with family" it'll be at GVW (10,000) and very likely will be overloaded beyond the GVW. And, with that trailer in tow at GVW (12,300) that adds up to 22,300 pounds. So, the GCWR does come into play as you stated and it matters.....


Read what you highlighted in my post and you will see what I was talking about.

Yes, overall GCWR would factor everything. Payload alone? No, not everything matters regarding payload.

Not sure what you are disagreeing with and why the anger? Clearly you are upset about something...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Outback 325BH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 07:41 AM   #36
larry337
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lagrange OH
Posts: 446
Well, without rereading the entire thread, I'm not anyone was relating payload specifically to the transmission. At least not intentionally. All most of us are saying is that he will be maxed in one or two numbers with that trailer. Maybe it can be done with the F250 but if buying new why not and F350? That's it in a nutshell.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
__________________


2017 Ford F350
2015 Cougar 337FLS
larry337 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 08:32 AM   #37
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outback 325BH View Post
Not to throw another wrench into this, but...

The drivetrain doesn't care about payload. As long as you aren't going past GCWR, the transmission is irrelevant.

Rear springs and differential housing is what matters with regard to payload. The axles contained within and the ring/pinion don't care about payload because no weight is placed on them. Same with the transmission.

Total weight being moved however does matter... which is where GCWR comes into play.

I know all numbers should be respected, however I am trying to address the payload-vs-transmission argument which is silly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. To say that payload has no bearing on the transmission is just wrong. Same goes for the ring and pinion, torque converter, U joints etc. Every time you hit the accelerator with 10,000lbs behind the truck EVERY one of the components experiences a tremendous amount of increased stress. A light duty tranny rated for say 15000 lbs. but always pulling an unloaded truck may last forever. The same tranny/drivetrain yanking 15k every time it tries to take off or speed up may go belly up in a short time (just think of the amount of torque/pressure it takes to remove a bolt tightened to 100 ft lbs of torque vs 5 - it's exactly the same when trying to get 15k moving vs 5k). I know this from experience and repeated conversations with Ford service technicians when I had to have my transmission replaced 3 times before 36,000 miles (the old Ford E4OD).
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 08:40 AM   #38
kfxgreenie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: WI
Posts: 424
This thread would be rendered useless if the OP just looked at a capable 3/4 Ton Gasser.

http://www.ramtrucks.com/assets/towi...ing_charts.pdf
kfxgreenie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 09:14 AM   #39
336
Member
 
336's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: North East Pennsylvania
Posts: 91
I'm running 2016 cougar 336 behind a 2013 duramax CC short bed. Has adaquate payload and plenty of truck for the trailer. Hardly know it's there. +1 for get the diesel. -1 for you need more truck.
__________________
]2013 Chevy 2500 HD 6.6L 💨💨
2016 Cougar 336
336 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2017, 12:14 PM   #40
502monte
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Pa
Posts: 19
Also towing 2017 cougar 336 with a 2007 chevy D/A ccsb
502monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cougar

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.