30amp 120v to 50amp 240v upgrade

[BlakeRL]

Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel

That extra 20A would be very easy to add and useful in multiple possible ways. Nice idea!

No problem and glad to help.

Nice to have a fellow tech head/gear head combo type soul to communicate with.

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake

[Bostongone]

I agree that this is a good way to add more power to an existing 30 amp TT but building the box should only be attempted by someone familiar with basic household/RV electricity. I also noted the lack of a 30 amp breaker prior to the TT 30 amp outlet. Should have one as the TT service cord could see a possible 50 amp surge if “something” happened prior to the 30 amp breaker in the TT PDC. The idea of adding an additional 20 amp outlet in parallel to the 30 amp TT outlet is also feasible but would also be required to be protected with a 20 amp breaker. I don’t have part numbers but am thinking of the toggle type on/off circuit breakers used in Champion generators for example.
Perhaps an updated schematic could be generated to help anyone considering building this distribution box.
Thanks!

[BlakeRL]

Hi Bostongone

Originally Posted by Bostongone

I agree that this is a good way to add more power to an existing 30 amp TT but building the box should only be attempted by someone familiar with basic household/RV electricity. I also noted the lack of a 30 amp breaker prior to the TT 30 amp outlet. Should have one as the TT service cord could see a possible 50 amp surge if “something” happened prior to the 30 amp breaker in the TT PDC. The idea of adding an additional 20 amp outlet in parallel to the 30 amp TT outlet is also feasible but would also be required to be protected with a 20 amp breaker. I don’t have part numbers but am thinking of the toggle type on/off circuit breakers used in Champion generators for example.
Perhaps an updated schematic could be generated to help anyone considering building this distribution box.
Thanks!

Hi Bostongone

True about not doing this if you are not familiar with electricity and wiring (preferably RV/Marine wiring). Also multiphase versus single phase.

If you zoom in on cookinwitdiesel’s diagram you can make out that he does show both a 50amp and a 30amp Breaker in the diagram albeit the text is a bit hard to make out.

If adding an additional 20amp circuit on the leg that the 30amp is coming off, yes it should have a breaker as well to avoid overheating the wiring, plug blades and receptacle hardware in case of surges/spikes.

In his comments to me he also indicated that the wire gauges would need to be of an appropriate size for the amperage in the various parts of the sub panel and breakout box.

************************************************** ********
WARNING: If not trained or knowledgeable in electrical skills and RV/Marine/Home wiring please DO NOT do this without having an electrician knowledgeable in RV/Marine shore power wiring inspect and approve your work before attempting to use a homemade box such as this concept project splitter box/panel and breakout box!

Also do not attemp a 30amp 120v to 50amp 240v Power Distribution Center (PDC) upgrade without having a knowledgeable RV/Marine electrician inspect and approve your work.
************************************************** ********

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake

[JRTJH]

There is a much easier (and cheaper) way to obtain an added 20 amps by simply installing a separate 20 amp outside quick disconnect, using 12 ga ROMEX to an interior outlet and using the 20 amp plug on the campground power pole. Then, the only added expense would be a 12 ga extension cord. If the distance from the campground power pole is greater than about 30' or so, I'd suggest a 10 ga extension cord, otherwise, just locate the exterior quick disconnect near to the location where the interior outlet is desired and rely on the campground power pole circuit breaker to protect the system.

[cookinwitdiesel]

That would work, my goal was zero work needed on the trailer itself

[BlakeRL]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

There is a much easier (and cheaper) way to obtain an added 20 amps by simply installing a separate 20 amp outside quick disconnect, using 12 ga ROMEX to an interior outlet and using the 20 amp plug on the campground power pole. Then, the only added expense would be a 12 ga extension cord. If the distance from the campground power pole is greater than about 30' or so, I'd suggest a 10 ga extension cord, otherwise, just locate the exterior quick disconnect near to the location where the interior outlet is desired and rely on the campground power pole circuit breaker to protect the system.

I have noticed here in the campground I live in that some poles only have a 50amp 240v receptacle. Others only have a 30amp 120v receptacle. My location I am in until I relocate does have all three breakered receptacle types though fortunately 50amp 240v, 30amp 120v and a GFCI 20amp 120v duplex receptacle.

I did not know that a 20amp quick connect plugin like that was made. Thank you for that image and tip. If they make those in female I may get one to feed 15/20amp back out from my bathroom GFCI for my heated water hose and security camera over in the rear driver exterior if my next location only has a 50amp shorepower receptacle! Currently my Outside passenger side duplex receptacle, kitchen sink duplex receptacle and two each inside duplex receptacles in the toyhauler section are fed off of that GFCI receptacle in the bathroom. I could just tap into one of those toyhauler section receptacles on the drivers side of the camper and tie it to a female version of that male quickconnect you uploaded the image of. Thank you!

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake

[Bostongone]

BlakeRL, I did go back and do concur that there is a breaker in both the TT outlet leg as well as the 50 amp added leg. They were a little difficult to see at first! Appreciate adding comments about having work checked by a qualified RV/Marine electrician.
Been two attempts on my life operating on or using electrical equipment, once in the service where a floor buffer handle sparked like hell when it touched a wall outlet box. Seems that the “tech” somehow wired the hot lead to the buffer chassis. Second attempt happened when I had my hands inside of some commercial test equipment and I quickly discovered that the on/off switch was in the neutral return? Yes, had polarized three prong plug!

[BlakeRL]

Originally Posted by Bostongone

BlakeRL, I did go back and do concur that there is a breaker in both the TT outlet leg as well as the 50 amp added leg. They were a little difficult to see at first! Appreciate adding comments about having work checked by a qualified RV/Marine electrician.
Been two attempts on my life operating on or using electrical equipment, once in the service where a floor buffer handle sparked like hell when it touched a wall outlet box. Seems that the “tech” somehow wired the hot lead to the buffer chassis. Second attempt happened when I had my hands inside of some commercial test equipment and I quickly discovered that the on/off switch was in the neutral return? Yes, had polarized three prong plug!

I got a pretty heavy jolt once back in the 90’s by the capacitor in a 21” CRT SuperMac Monitor myself that I was repairing and it rocked my world but was not the fault of anyone other than myself for not bleeding the stored charge out of it first. Gave me a pretty healthy respect for electricity though.

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake

[Bostongone]

High voltage DC is a different animal! Theory being that it cramps the muscles and makes it difficult to let go!

[firemedic1560]

Great ideas on this thread. Going back to your original question, while I use Square D whenever I can, I am not so much a fan of the Homeline series. I have very little formal electrical training, but worked with my neighbor who was a journeyman electrician for years. If you compare the standard Square D to the Homeline series, the Homeline is just not quite as robust. The standard Square D is called QO, which stands for quick open. Also the QO series has the orange trip indicator that the Homeline does not. Maybe a little easier finding a problem in the dark, or without your glasses on, etc.

[BlakeRL]

Originally Posted by firemedic1560

Great ideas on this thread. Going back to your original question, while I use Square D whenever I can, I am not so much a fan of the Homeline series. I have very little formal electrical training, but worked with my neighbor who was a journeyman electrician for years. If you compare the standard Square D to the Homeline series, the Homeline is just not quite as robust. The standard Square D is called QO, which stands for quick open. Also the QO series has the orange trip indicator that the Homeline does not. Maybe a little easier finding a problem in the dark, or without your glasses on, etc.

Thank you for that information! That helps me narrow down the possibilities and prompts me to inquire of WFCO why the do not list the QO series on their compatibility list.

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake

[firemedic1560]

It could be as simple as cost. the QO series is more expensive. Also, they may not have tested their equipment with it. If they didn't test with a particular combination or line of equipment, it may not be "factory approved."
It is usually all about reducing liability. If they didn't test the QO line and there is a failure, they can deny responsibility. Let me know what they say.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Bostongone

High voltage DC is a different animal! Theory being that it cramps the muscles and makes it difficult to let go!

AC will do the same thing. Running trouble on a line wire ckt. once upon a time and found a broken jumper wire on one of the wires. It essentially just left a single strand of wire unterminated that ran miles under a electrical transmission line. Got lazy and careless; took off my line gloves and decided to "adjust" my hooks to get more comfortable to make the repair. Put one bare hand on the unterminated wire and the other on the down guy/anchor NEVER thinking about it being an unterminated conductor. As soon as I placed my hand over the strand for the downguy both my wrists/hands arched straight up and yanked me forward as I felt the 60 cycles just pulse the heck out of my upper body. It was physically impossible to pull my hands off the wire with muscle strength. I could get my fingers to barely open by pulling with all my strength but that was it - and when I did there were blue/blue white electrical sparks shooting constantly from my finger tips to my palms. As I stood there after several attempts to pull loose it began to dawn on me that this could very easily stop my heart. I told the fellow below me (I was up maybe 30') that I was going to ungaff and see if my body weight would pull my hands free. He advised not to since there was a steel fence post right below me. Finally just kept going down the pole using weight and body strength and when I finally suspended all my weight with all my muscle power one hand broke free releasing the hold on me. I just slumped forward against the pole completely wore out. Made the repairs, pulled a meter up and measured what was there: 1000vac but very little amperage. If there had been high amps I suppose I would have just hiccuped and fried up there.

Long story to illustrate that AC can grab your muscles too. To me DC feels like it "burns" and AC "pulses" - for lack of a better description. Be careful when working with any of it - unless you read it first you don't know what is waiting for you until you become that final piece that gives the power the path it is looking for.

[Frank G]

Originally Posted by firemedic1560

Great ideas on this thread. Going back to your original question, while I use Square D whenever I can, I am not so much a fan of the Homeline series. I have very little formal electrical training, but worked with my neighbor who was a journeyman electrician for years. If you compare the standard Square D to the Homeline series, the Homeline is just not quite as robust. The standard Square D is called QO, which stands for quick open. Also the QO series has the orange trip indicator that the Homeline does not. Maybe a little easier finding a problem in the dark, or without your glasses on, etc.

Just remember the Homeline and QO Breakers are not interchangeable. The Square D Homeline series is geared for residential use. The QO series is heaver duty and rated for switching duty. They perform well but they will fail after time when used as switching devices. I doubt the QO series is available at the big box stores anymore.

[Frank G]

I have not attended any NEC training seminars lately, like 30 years, but I do know as of 2002 Arc Fault Circuit Breakers are required in residential installations. Kind of questioning how the RV industry got exempted. We'll see if Google knows.

[BlakeRL]

Thank you for all of the information and feedback! It is much appreciated.

I am going to delay this upgrade for a couple to 4 weeks possibly.

If you were aware of my flooding issues from another thread where I asked for help in finding my VIN and year model of my camper I have good news.

Just worked out a new lot arrangement in a wooded single lot on a farmers farm in Alabama on Sam Mountain.

That said I will be relocating my camper and other possessions throughout the month of Feb.

I also have a 2006 31’ foot tongue pull camper in rough shape and other trailers and vehicles to relocate so may have to wait until I have completed the move.

Excited about going to a rural wooded location though and will be happy not getting flooded anymore.

I will post when I start performing the upgrade though and keep you abreast of any additional unforeseen issues that may arise and solutions I come up with.

Thanks again

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake

[tundrwd]

Did you include enough power for all the “blinky lights”?

The essence of technology is - blinky lights!

Especially impressive when viewed from outside the trailer at night!!!

Anyway good luck and glad you’re getting it together again.

[lfd311]

The Square D "QO" Series is available at most home centers (Lowe's, Home Depot, Etc). As is the Homeline series. Like someone above mentioned, the QO series is more of a commercial duty breaker and not sure why it's not listed as recommended for use with WFCO. Maybe a quick e-mail to their customer support would help there??
One other thing to consider, since you had mentioned that you would be adding a generator at some point. If you use two separate service entrances (30 & 20), wiring in a transfer switch may prove problematic to you. I see no reason why you can't wire it as you said - 50 Amp from pedestal to camper, then add the sub-panel and a 30 amp breaker to connect to your existing panel. It would be just as if it was fed from the pedestal. It wouldn't know the difference. Then you could add whatever you'd like to the new panel to try and balance the load. Not as much of a problem when you're connected to shore power as it would be if you were running off the generator.