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Old 08-19-2020, 12:35 PM   #21
mikec557
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Here goes

Here goes. In my next post I'm going to try to post my write up. Maybe I need an editor to read my work and tighten it up. This is the short version and it's still too long...
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Old 08-19-2020, 12:39 PM   #22
mikec557
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What I did to hook up inverter and solar charge controller

Where to begin? I can't write up a step by step because it would be too big. So instead, I'll mention each area that was a concern for my installation and post as many pictures as I can. Feel free to ask questions about my write up or what you might see in the pictures. I'll break this up if I can't paste it into one posting. The pictures will also probably require a few posting.

My 2020 26RBSWE was built in 10/2019. Consequently, some of the "new in 2020" features were omitted, or executed poorly. For instance, my floor does not have the new composite instead of luan top and bottom, mine is luan/sp. They did leave a loop in the pass-through for the installation of an inverter, but they failed to make a loop of the 12v wires from the rooftop gland to the batteries so I could easily install a solar charge controller.

At least they did put the rooftop gland on making the solar panel installation easier. It's a Zamp two outlet gland. Printed on it is a statement to the effect not to exceed 500 watts. About the gland, Zamp uses a standard SAE two prong connector. Some of what you read will say they intentionally reversed the pos and neg from the industry standard of neg (male) is exposed and positive (female) is shrouded. If you have ever daisy chained a few SAE connectors you know that the shielded connector is sometimes positive and sometimes negative. In my case the gland male/exposed prong is positive to my solar charge controller (SCC/scc), yet the red wire on the 24in SAE to MC4 connectors I bought on Amazon was male/exposed positive. Good thing it came with a gender changer. So, gland to gender changer to SAE to MC4 connector kept the visible red wire as positive. But, I didn't pay attention when buying the SAE/MC4 adapter and bought ones with a square shoulder instead of rounded. Razor knife fixed that. I used a 3ft on the left and a 5ft MC4 extension for my two 160 watt solar panels. That install was straight forward.

With regard to the inverter, I bought a Xantrex Freedom X 1000 watt pure sinewave inverter with shore power pass-through. And because I wanted a 120vac outlet in the pass-through, I bought the outlet that plugs into the body of the Xantrex unit. Ultimately, I hated the Romex connectors on the Xantrex. They are extremely un-user friendly. That alone would make me choose a different inverter. It's hard enough to crawl into the pass through and do the wiring, you don't need this aggravation on top of that. That's my two-cents on Xantrex. But, I digress. Be sure to unplug the trailer from power before you cut the Romex. After it was cut I turned the power back on and determined which end was hot from the breaker panel, and which end fed out to the three outlets in the trailer. In my case they are the outlet on the driver side of the bed, not the passenger side bed which, I think they should have included, one outlet in the kitchen, and the outlet behind our TV. BTW I made my own cables for the inverter and SCC. I used 2ga welding wire and a 150a circuit breaker that I could manually open and close for the inverter. And I used 8ga fine stranded wire for the SCC. On the rooftop I used all premade MC4 wires.

Solar Charger Control (scc/SCC) loop was MIA. You can see I cut a few square holes in the front wall of the pass through, hoping to find the loop (not pulled through the wall into the pass through). Instead I found that they used 8ga wire from the rooftop gland, pulled tightly down through the front wall, out the bottom and out to the batteries. They did use an auto resetting 30amp breaker, but it is not what you want to use, and it was located in the worst location possible. More about that later. I disconnected the wires from the batteries and breaker, taped a fish line to them, and pulled as much as I could into the pass-through. I already knew my 8ga wire was not going to fit inside the little metal conduit they put in the frame to protect their 12v wire run, but I put a fish line in place just in case I could use it in the future. Because I was already bringing the pass through the 2ga wire from the batteries to the inverter, I decided to put pos and neg buss bars inside the pass through and direct my SCC output to the buss bars.

I have a Victron BMV-712 with Bluetooth battery monitor. I didn't want to figure out how to mount it outside on the tongue near the batteries, in the elements, and protect it's circuitry. So I mounted it inside the pass through. Because of that I had to remove the battery to frame ground out on the tongue. Instead, I ran that from the negative bus bar inside the pass through back out and down to the frame, making that connection under the pass through.

I have a Tire Traker signal repeater. So… I connected a Blue Sea 12v fuse block to the buss bars. I think I originally connected the positive lead for the shunt to the pos buss bar, but have since moved it to the Blue Sea fuse block.

I mounted all the hardware I could to 1/2 OSB while it was on my workbench. I also made all the cables and connections I could while it was on the bench. Then I leaned it into place on the front wall of the pass through and screwed it along the top edge with 4 or 5 screws. I tried to hit an aluminum frame member I could see was there but I'm not sure if I hit it or not. At the bottom, I didn't want to screw into the wall, so I used a piece of angle aluminum. I can't remember if its 3/4 by 3/4 or 1in by 1in. I predrilled about 4 or 5 screw holes in it, then screwed it down to the floor while pushing it tightly against the OSB. That keeps the OSB from being able to move.

Those auto resetting circuit breakers on the tongue. They could not have put them in a worse place. My battery tray is just *BARELY* two group 27 batteries wide. They put the two gang metal junction box for the trailer and 3 of the auto reset breakers directly within the battery space. Like that, I could not fit the two batteries in the tray. I relocated 2 of the breakers and removed 1. That was the one they installed for the solar panel to battery wire run. When I put my SCC in place I installed two 30 amp circuit breakers, with manual open and close; one between the panels and SCC and the other between the SCC and the batteries. I found two plastic battery boxes for my Battleborn lithium batteries. But I had to 69 the lids and cut a LOT of the side overhang on the lids to make it work.

Finally, I had to run one positive and two negative 2ga wires from the outside to the inside of the pass through. I drilled a 1/-1/4 or 1-1/2 hole through the floor, outside the trailer frame member. I put a piece of eternabond tape on the Darco to keep it from getting ragged by my hole saw. I used the two gang gray box you see on the underside. I also had to cut the same size hole in it's faceplate. In the pass through I just used a one gang faceplate sold with a nice sized hole already in it. I'll fill that gray box with closed cell spray foam when I'm satisfied my work is finished. That should keep water spray from getting inside the box and wetting my luan flooring.

Boy, and I thought this was the short version.

Let me know if you have any questions.
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Old 08-19-2020, 12:41 PM   #23
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More pictures...
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Old 08-19-2020, 12:47 PM   #24
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Apparently I need different verbiage to load more pics...

This is the board installed in the pass through, you can see the cable entry just inside the doorway.
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Old 08-19-2020, 12:52 PM   #25
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This was the most troubling part of the project. Cutting holes in the floor just seems wrong. But there was no way I could feed the wire up into the pass through any other way.
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Old 08-19-2020, 12:55 PM   #26
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Some final pictures...
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Old 08-22-2020, 04:39 PM   #27
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I am partway through the installation of a similar system as you are doing on my 2018 Cougar. I will describe my system is a separate thread.

I recently spoke with the Tech Support at MFCO (power center for my TT) and the tech told me WFCO had developed a dual bus power center that eliminates the need for a separate subpanel that I must install. But my Square D subpanell is going to cost about $35 for panel and two breakers so I chose that path. You probably have that power center in your 2020 TT making your system less complex. For early WFCO systems a subpanel is needed.

Anyway, good luck on finishing your inverter installation.
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Old 08-29-2020, 02:52 PM   #28
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Thanks for the exhaustive post. Will definitely assist in my install.
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Old 08-29-2020, 03:03 PM   #29
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I am getting closer to finishing on my install. I will provide a complete parts list when finished.

A lot more work than I thought. But will be nice when done.

Also, in doing this job I have found several things that were poorly assembled or designed. Quality control is unknown in my Keystone product. Some items were destined to fail at a future time.

I will tabulate these as well when the job is finished.
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Old 08-30-2020, 03:06 PM   #30
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WFCO WF-9855 Converter/Charger

MIKEC557,

I have a new 2021 Cougar 26RBS, same model as you, that I'm just getting broken in. I plan to install 400 Watts of solar and two Lithium Ion 100 AH batteries. I found your post to be very helpful. I want to share some information and ask a few questions.

Likely, I'll be installing my solar system with inverter in a few weeks. I am camping this weekend and taking the opportunity to check out how Keystone did with the "solar ready" prep on my trailer. I was pretty happy with the wiring, after reading how some of your wiring was not prepped well. Under the solar ready cover in the pass-thru, I found the residential wire loop for the three inverter ready outlets. Also, there are two pairs of red/black heavy gauge DC wires (8 or 10 AWG). I am assuming the two Zamp plugs on the roof are parallelled together and fed to the pass-thru with one of these pairs. I am further assuming the other pair is connected to the battery and will serve as the pair that the solar charge controller uses to send it's charge to the batteries. I will confirm these assumptions using my volt meter. Having read your posts, I am assuming (again, to be confirmed) I will have to run a heavy gauge wire (probably 1/0 AWG wire that will be supplied with the inverter) from the battery to feed the inverter. Please confirm this is actually what you found.

One very important item I discovered this weekend as I was looking at everything is that the WFCO converter/charger installed on my trailer is model WF-9855. I could not find where this device has a Lithium Ion battery mode. After further research online and downloading the owner manual, I confirmed that this unit is not suitable for charging Lithium Ion batteries. I wasn't sure, then I found a YouTube video of another owner who had this same exact situation. He tried using the WF-9855 when he switched to Lithium Ion batteries and found that the unit simply would not charge fully and it was extremely slow at charging the Lithium Ion batteries (Battle Born 100 AH, same as I plan to buy). He ended up replacing the converter/charger with a WF-9850L2 that is a 2019 enhancement to WFCO's product offering, developed for use with Lithium Ion batteries. He showed the difference in results (time to charge and % charge achieved) in his YouTube video and it was dramatic What was your experience in regard to the converter? My only hesitation here is whether or not I need to spend the $200 for the new converter or if my solar panels are going to always be able to keep my batteries charged, making the converter a moot point. Any thoughts on this?
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Old 08-30-2020, 04:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byerskm View Post
Any thoughts on this?
Any thoughts on this? Are you kidding, I'm full of opinions, just ask my wife. LOL

EDIT: Correction, I have 320 watts of solar, not 360. I bought 2 Renogy 160 watt panels.

Yes, the two Zamp connectors are joined together in the attic (I assume because it works), with one pair of 8ga wire running to the pass through. If you look close at the wire in the pass through, you can read what gage it is. Before you cut that loop remember to disconnect from the batteries.

But before you disconnect from the batteries, use your DVM on the rooftop to verify positive and negative. On mine the top most pin was positive, despite it being the exposed male pin. You need to know which pin is Positive to hookup your panels correctly. If you buy a 24in SAE to MC4 adapter on Amazon it seems they all come with a gender adapter to accommodate whatever you need. I needed to use it.

My inverter is only 1000 watts. The instructions called for 2ga not over 5 or 6 feet, and a 150a breaker/fuse. I had to supply the wire and breaker.

Regarding the original WFCO converter charger. You're right, it does not have a lithium setting and will never, by itself, charge lithium batteries fully. It also has a cycle I think it calls "equalizing", which lithium does not need. It's for FLA battery cell balancing, and you can't turn it off.

I use a Progressive Dynamics charger/converter for lithium batteries. I have two 100a BattleBorn. More below.

I think, but double check FAQs at BattleBorn, they say you don't "have to" replace your stock WFCO and that it won't harm their battery. But you know the old saying, In for a penny, in for a pound. I bought the PD unit.

Whether you "need to" replace the WFCO is a choice only you can make. I have 320 watts using 2 panels, you're going to have 400 watts. Where will you be camping? I prefer shade and a hookup, but sometimes no hookup and I'm looking for maximum solar exposure. I decided with the PD I had the best of both worlds.

Just a tip on cost. We joined Escapees RV for a couple reasons. The most important are discounts on certain things. For instance BattleBorn gives you about $100 discount on each battery, and a 15% discount in the same order for "accessories"... which is everything else they sell such as Progressive Dynamics charger converters and Victron solar charge controllers and battery monitors. I bought 2 BB batteries, a Victron MPPT 50/100 solar charge controller with built-in Bluetooth (yes that's probably overkill), and the Victron BMV712 battery monitor with Bluetooth (which somehow talks to the solar charge controller).
I have to say I am addicted to monitoring my solar and batteries by Bluetooth to my phone.

Now, even with the discount, that's a lot of money. But the money I saved helped me justify buying the more expensive gear.

But it always comes down to budget constraints. Buy any brand of good quality stuff and you'll be happy.

I think I touched on all your questions. Did I miss anything?
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Old 08-30-2020, 04:39 PM   #32
byerskm
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WFCO WF-9855 Converter/Charger

Thanks Mike.

Yes, you hit all the key points. We are members of Escapees...yeah! My plan is to buy 2 Battle Born 100 AH Lithium Ion batteries, so your info on the other items they carry, and the discount, is of high interest to me. I will definitely look at the PD converter and other items Battle Born has to offer, due to learning of it from you.

The inverter I am looking at is 2000 Watt so that is why they supply 1/0 AWG cables for the 12V feed with it. The fuse supplies is 250 Amp. We are not going to do hard core boon docking, but we do want the freedom and savings associated with being able to function comfortably at sites without power when we are in transit and/or when we are visiting some of the great places in our awesome US of A and we can do so without paying for power a few days at a time.
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Old 08-30-2020, 04:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byerskm View Post
Thanks Mike.

Yes, you hit all the key points. We are members of Escapees...yeah! My plan is to buy 2 Battle Born 100 AH Lithium Ion batteries, so your info on the other items they carry, and the discount, is of high interest to me. I will definitely look at the PD converter and other items Battle Born has to offer, due to learning of it from you.

The inverter I am looking at is 2000 Watt so that is why they supply 1/0 AWG cables for the 12V feed with it. The fuse supplies is 250 Amp. We are not going to do hard core boon docking, but we do want the freedom and savings associated with being able to function comfortably at sites without power when we are in transit and/or when we are visiting some of the great places in our awesome US of A and we can do so without paying for power a few days at a time.
Sounds like you've got a good plan going.
BTW, if you have a need, Escapees has a good discount on trailer and truck tires. You have to click through their website to get to Goodyear.com and you can see the discount once they're in the cart. We put tires on a Silverado 1/2 ton a couple years ago, and two different Cougar TTs. Just something to keep in mind.
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Old 09-02-2020, 10:30 AM   #34
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Mike, I have a follow up. I have also been looking at Renogy for my panels. I noticed they only use the 100W panels in their RV kits. i.e., they use 4 X 100W for a 400W system. Each panel weighs about 16 Lbs. I would prefer to to use 2 X 200W panels. Less holes to drill in my roof. Each panel weighs about 25 lbs. You mentioned you went with 2 X 160W panels. I am wondering why Renogy's 400W kits don't use 2 X 200W panels. I have a message into them, but they are swamped...may not hear for a while. I am wondering if it is just an assumed handling issue. Lighter is better in terms of carrying the panels up to the roof? Or, maybe there is a concern about the wind load when driving down the road? larger panel = more force per each z-bracket? Anyway, your 160W panels are in between and I was wondering what you think about this. The question of force on each bracket is an engineering question and I don't think I am going to figure that one out. I tend to think the orientation of the panels is such that they don't get much in the way of wind force anyway. Perhaps Renogy did the engineering and can tell me?
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byerskm View Post
Mike, I have a follow up. I have also been looking at Renogy for my panels. I noticed they only use the 100W panels in their RV kits. i.e., they use 4 X 100W for a 400W system. Each panel weighs about 16 Lbs. I would prefer to to use 2 X 200W panels. Less holes to drill in my roof. Each panel weighs about 25 lbs. You mentioned you went with 2 X 160W panels. I am wondering why Renogy's 400W kits don't use 2 X 200W panels. I have a message into them, but they are swamped...may not hear for a while. I am wondering if it is just an assumed handling issue. Lighter is better in terms of carrying the panels up to the roof? Or, maybe there is a concern about the wind load when driving down the road? larger panel = more force per each z-bracket? Anyway, your 160W panels are in between and I was wondering what you think about this. The question of force on each bracket is an engineering question and I don't think I am going to figure that one out. I tend to think the orientation of the panels is such that they don't get much in the way of wind force anyway. Perhaps Renogy did the engineering and can tell me?

I don't why all their kits use the 100 watt panels. But being the cynic that I am, and because I tend to view the world through my business degree eyes (which I could have said in fewer words by saying I'm a realist) I would guess it's this: I think they are aiming at the beginning solar guy with their kits. It's "all in one" approach is attractive, and the small footprint of the 100 watt panel will fit almost anyone's rooftop. And I think there's a good sized market for first time solar installs.

My first (of three) installs was their 200 watt kit. The next time I bought 3x 100 watt panels and one of their charge controllers that came kitted with their Bluetooth dongle. This time I bought their two 160s and Victron for everything else.

If you use their Z-brackets (which are good brackets, albeit one time use) I think there is no wind lift concern. But since my money was burning a hole in my pocket, I bought the brackets from AMSolar in Oregon. On my 5th wheel I wanted to be able to tilt the panels, which I did at Quartzsite January 2020. I got a 50% increase in output.

I used the AMSolar brackets again on the 26RBSWE, but doubt I'll go up and tilt them. Because we have such a curved roof, I used the 3-hole and 5-hole foot in an effort to get my panels flatter, but they still are leaned over quite a bit. I worried about "was I causing a lift problem" doing this but did it anyway. We've driven 1000 miles so far with no indication of trouble.

While I don't enjoy drilling holes in the roof, the more important consideration for me is a safe path to walk around on the roof: to inspect, caulk, replace roof vent with MaxxAir fans, to clean and service the air conditioner, etc.

If I may suggest, make 2 or 3 templates by cutting up moving boxes from HD to the size of 200 watt panels (and 160 watt panels) and place them around your rooftop. See how it looks to you. My 160s are the same width of the 100s, and only 6 inches longer than the 100s. It's not cost efficient to do two 160s but they don't take much more space than two 100s. So I get 320 instead of 200 and I have a lot of walking around room.

One last thing I don't think I mentioned. I don't screw any of the wires down on the roof. I use a piece of eternabond tape in certain places to hold them down. A piece about 4in wide and 5-6in long. I also put some on the rooftop anywhere the wire couplers look like they'll rub around on the roof as we travel.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Mike
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:17 PM   #36
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Just finishing up in Bryce Canyon NP. Hiked to the bottom. Thought I'd need lifeflight on hike out...
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:38 PM   #37
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I thought of one more thing. As you lay the templates down on the rooftop, anticipate shadows thrown by the bedroom vent cover and the air conditioner cowl. And, where you'd kneel to take the ac cowl off. Just some things to consider.
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:43 PM   #38
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I thought of one more thing. As you lay the templates down on the rooftop, anticipate shadows thrown by the bedroom vent cover and the air conditioner cowl. And, where you'd kneel to take the ac cowl off. Just some things to consider.
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:53 PM   #39
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Boy, how quickly the mind begins to slip. The first install was 300 watt, a 200 watt kit plus an extra panel. That's the first pic. It's on the 24RBSWE.

The 2&3rd pics are the 5th wheel, my second install. The pics don't do justice to how sloped that rooftop was. You can kind of get the idea in the 3rd pic. Many times I thought I was casting my own shadow on the first panel.

The 4th pic is this installation. If you zoom in you can see the AMSolar feet. I don't have a picture of the wires taped down, but you can see that in the first pic.

Edit: no you can't. In that first install I used zip ties with a screw hole. But you can see the eternabond tape under the wire connections. I'll look for a pic of taped down wires and post it below in the thread.
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mikec557 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2020, 12:55 PM   #40
byerskm
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Newnan
Posts: 23
Great input. Definitely will use the template suggestion to play around with positioning. Good to see your comments on the tilt mount...I was considering. Maybe during winter months is might be worth having them. Even if I don't tilt for improved performance, I have been thinking I will want to be able to clean the roof under the panels, sooner or later. Thinking the tilt mount will make that a lot easier. Eternabond tape, another great tidbit from you. Thanks. Interesting on your background. You might guess, mine is engineering.
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