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Old 02-01-2020, 05:59 AM   #1
chunker
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Keystone customer service and responses

I sent a PM and got a reply fro JRTJH on this but I'll make a public comment and plea. It deals with Keystone customer service and responses. I'll give an example of a SOB forums and responses. Grand Design has an owner's forum not affiliated with the company. It might be affiliated with RVLife like this one, not sure. In the past a couple of company reps monitored and would give direct answers to specific questions. It was an irregular response since they had other jobs. About a year ago that participation seemingly quit. Maybe 1-2 years ago Grand Design started their own web site for people to ask direct questions to factory reps. They will research and respond to technical inquires.

Example I am going to buy a new toy hauler. I've narrowed my choices to either a Raptor 356 or a Grand Design Momentum 351M. Nearly identical trailers in size, weight, floor plan, etc. Some notable differences but those are more technical, or small and appointments. I had/have questions about what things weigh. Options added or not added based on what you generally see in a dealer ordered unit. I posted the question in the "ask Grand Design" section and got the answers to How is "average UVW calculated, what weight does dual pane windows add, what does the patio system add in weight, and a few other. Now I know what MY trailer will approximately weigh when I get it and won't have a huge surprise when it came.

For the Raptor I did find some of those answers in a direct phone call to a factory rep at a dealership. We talked about an hour about these items and a couple things relative to a "special change in the build" that could be done. (Replacing the solid steps with older original folding steps as it's being built) NOTE they can and will do that. So I was able to get the information but it was far more difficult.

So here's a suggestion. If there are any Keystone reps that silently lurk here seeing what the community has to say, have a designated individual be available to answer those direct questions to owners and potential owners. Or better yet, have a Keystone owned forum that Keystone controlled and have that customer interaction.

Customer service is the thorn in RV ownership and the RV experience. Any direct and friendly responses from the company goes a long way to making the ownership a pleasant experience rather than a frustrating uphill battle.

Thanks for listening and hopefully this is the correct location for this thread.
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Old 02-01-2020, 06:26 AM   #2
CedarCreekWoody
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The Forest River forum now has a feature from the factory that appears helpful. They have what appears to be a semiautomatic response to many posters with questions. The response gives the poster a name and contact info at the proper division and apparently alerts the employee about to expect to be contacted and coordinates the response. It appears to be well received.
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Old 02-01-2020, 09:12 AM   #3
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Let me see if I might be able to put this into some sort of perspective that can be understood easier...

First, I need to say that I've never met the current owner of this forum and have only "communicated" with him in 3 or 4 PM's and about 3 threads in an "off line forum section" that's only visible to the moderators and owners of the forum. So, these comments are "my understanding, and may (or may not) be the official position of the owner of the forum" I do not represent this as "the owner's position"....

When Courtland, the founder of this forum started it back around June 2009, he recognized that there was no place that owners of Keystone products could go to get help with problems that were not being addressed by the factory customer support section. The factory did not have any "internet presence" at which owners could seek answers or make suggestions about how to use and maintain their trailers.

He started the forum without any "official factory support" and it survived and grew. It was not dependent on any factory input then and it remains completely free of any "Keystone influence". Courtland tried to keep the forum completely free, no commercial involvement and no "Keystone influence". It was a place to seek "unofficial help, outside the company".

It remains essentially unchanged to this day.

If it were an "official arm of Keystone" it would not enjoy the features that it does, people would claim "they take down anything someone says that's negative about the company" and the "commercial aspects of marketing and sales" would influence any "integrity about the forum's purpose and content".

So, to seek "factory support to help members here" or to "suggest that the factory should be involved with helping people here" would "wield a double edged sword". It is extremely difficult to remain "positive to company limitations" while "assuring that everyone who complains gets an acceptable solution". So, active Keystone involvement in resolving complaints or answering questions would likely lead to many "bickering sessions" (nice language version) that could put the company's image in a negative vein because much of what they would need to reveal to provide "answers to angry owners" would reveal company limitations to their competitors at other brands. Keystone wouldn't tell you why they use TK tires rather than Carlisle tires (and they shouldn't have to answer that "openly in front of Forest River executives" on a public forum. If they were to engage owners here, the immediate response would quickly become an allegation of "You won't tell us the truth" and put whomever is trying to help on the defensive.

WE DON'T WANT THAT KIND OF FORUM !!!!!

This is NOT a place to get "factory comments" and it is NOT a place to seek resolution of "factory problems". It was founded as a place for owners to discuss topics "WITHOUT FACTORY INFLUENCE". To date, it is the only place Keystone owners can get objective, helpful advice about their trailer WITHOUT commercial influence and WITHOUT factory intervention.

So, to suggest that "the factory ought to step in and start answering questions and helping people with problems" would make this an "arm of the factory" and is not the function or the purpose of this forum. I don't suspect you'll ever find "factory intervention via this forum"...

The mantra remains: This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company. and is clearly visible at the bottom of every forum page.

So, would it be nice to have a place to openly discuss issues with Keystone's representatives, to get answers about future products and/or help with questions or problems with Keystone's products??? Heck yes, BUT NOT HERE !!!! That is NOT and was NEVER the function nor the vision for this forum. This site is independent of and separate from Keystone, intentionally. It does not have any "Keystone influence" and remains free of "Keystone bias". We (at least me) like it that way.

In closing: These comments are "my understanding, and may (or may not) be the official position of the owner of the forum" I do not represent this as "the owner's position"
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Old 02-01-2020, 09:24 AM   #4
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Very well said John!! I like the idea of discussing lots of different topics and not JUST KEYSTONE TRAILERS. I would venture a guess that the scope of "acceptable" topics may be reduced if Keystone was to become part of this forum. How could they tell you if your overweight, what brand TV you should use, and for that matter any other accessory needed/used in the enjoyment of your RV?
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Old 02-01-2020, 09:41 AM   #5
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Different companies have different business models. To date Keystone has not seen a need to have a website/forum dedicated to their customers needs. Maybe in the future? No body knows.

One thing is for certain: there needs to be an independant forum for honest, unbiased and uncensored help for people who own Keystone products. We must be doing a good job at that as we have a lot of owners of SOB that either join or stay after buying a non-Keystone rig. That's because of the community that has been built here and a willingness of the members to take care of people's needs.

Suggest to Keystone that they start a forum of their own run by the company. They may do it. It won't be run solely by unpaid volunteers who do this simply because they like to help people and want them to enjoy the most they can get out of their purchase.

Another certainty: if they do decide to go the forum rout, it won't be called keystoneforums.com
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Old 02-01-2020, 10:09 AM   #6
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This is a great forum for any RV owner. The sub systems are what.. in many cases are universal across the various builders.. my interest is learning more about the sub systems and general RV ideas, improvements, experiences, etc..

I own a Keystone RV and have for many decades. I also belong and participate on many non Keystone sites.. the sub systems are the same. Knowledge and helping others is what I joined this group
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Old 02-01-2020, 10:48 AM   #7
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A further comment to the OP:

If you can't simply call or email Keystone and get answers to your questions about the Fuzion that interests you, why would you expect that the company would be more inclined to spend time on a "non-pay/non factory" platform trying to answer questions from "one of hundreds, maybe thousands" of people who may or may not eventually buy a product from Keystone?

They have a Facebook page that IS Keystone corporate sponsored. If they won't answer you there, do you really believe they'll bend over backwards to help you here?

To end this for me, I am also a member of the Ford Powerstroke forum (also a non-factory sponsored forum). I've seen more than one member ask for information there, get "half-*** answers from the Ford rep" and when that member says, "That doesn't answer what I asked" they are told (by other forum members) to "don't piss off Ford, we need them on this site"....

Corporate influence??? Yeah, because Ford is "helping" nobody wants to lose the "perceived support". In reality, anyone with a real problem could resolve it either at the dealership or with Ford's CS department. That forum, IMHO, has lost its ability to be "neutral" because of the perception that Ford is listening...…

I don't want that to occur here, so even though I welcome Keystone's membership and informational posts, I don't want this site to become "an arm of Keystone". It will lose its "people helping people" atmosphere and become a "wait for Keystone to tell us the answer".... If that's what you want and Keystone won't provide it "on their site", inviting them here won't fix that problem.... But, IMHO, it'll create many more problems.....
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Old 02-01-2020, 11:32 AM   #8
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I have to agree with the comments above, particularly John referencing the Ford Powerstroke forum. I don't want a pseudo KeystoneRV forum that may have a rep come on from time to time and everyone tries to wait or defer to them - useless. I like, and stay on this forum, because of the attributes listed above and don't want that to change. If I have an issue that I believe warrants Keystone involvement....I involve them; hopefully at the appropriate level involving those that can address my issue...MY issue, without regard for others issues or divulging information that could in some way be detrimental to Keystone; and I promise, if the Keystone reps were candid with a member in some cases, that information would go right straight to their competitors, so why do it from their perspective? From mine, why would I want that?
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Old 02-01-2020, 01:23 PM   #9
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John, thank you for your comments and I whole heartedly agree that an independent forum should be just that, independent. The one GD forum is independent the other is corporate owned but various GD owners serve as forum moderators. How much gets censored I don't know but that forum isn't the place for bashing, there are other forums for that. Part of my original post was asking if Keystone had shown any interest or propensity to have a factory sponsored on to give direct answers to questions? Yes, when I need specific answers to a specific question I can call the reps at the factory/company but likely my question is something that others might benefit from seeing and getting the answers. Thus a forum presence. If Keystone wasn't interested in their own, then perhaps a single thread on this forum that would be forwarded to Keystone for this specific questions and technical information. Not sure of the logistics of that, just a thought.
David

Now the big news, at least big for me. Today I placed an order for a Raptor 356 with the following changes/adds. 3 season door, HappyJac seat/bed/table, full body paint in orange, dual pane windows, and the main steps replaced with the older folding steps. NOT getting a typically ordered king bed, patio system. Monday the dealer will call the factory to find if this can be fit into an existing build and an approximate delivery.
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Old 02-01-2020, 01:29 PM   #10
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Congrats. I much prefer the fold down steps over the solid steps.
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Old 02-01-2020, 03:10 PM   #11
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Congrats. I much prefer the fold down steps over the solid steps.
We also much prefer the fold down steps.
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Old 02-02-2020, 04:33 AM   #12
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An example of a forum with corporate sponsorship and monitoring is RV.net. If you want to see what that looks like take a look at that forum and see how Camping World handles a forum. It does show signs of corporate ownership and folks get frustrated by what they perceive as selective censorship as Camping World does get a lot of criticism on that forum and elsewhere on the web. It isn't a terrible situation just a bit different than a non-corporate user site like this one.

When I was a Kawasaki guy, the VROC.org (Vulcan Riders and Owners Club) had a couple folks who had direct communication with Kawasaki corporate reps and this never amounted to much other than a source for product leaks when the reps were inclined or hints at technical resolution by the company when they didn't want to use the recall system. It was an uncomfortable situation for the forum folks who were in that position.
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Old 02-09-2020, 06:30 AM   #13
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Reference the folding steps. I placed the order for the Raptor 356 with the steps to be the folding, not the solid. The dealer when they placed the order made those stipulations but the factory offered one already in the queue BUT that trailer had the solid already installed. Got with the dealership owner who told me that and also said they would install the correct steps when it came in. Doing this will save 4-6 weeks build time. I'm confident they will get it right.
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Old 02-09-2020, 11:26 AM   #14
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What has been said about maintaining an independent forum makes a lot of sense... no argument here. But I'd like to add that I am also a member of the Forest River Forum since I also own a Forest River Forester motorhome. And that forum is also a superb place to ask questions, get answers and to help other people. It has some features I wish this one did have, like a daily digest of the most popular new posts. This forum has the newsletter but it pales by comparison to the Forest River Forum's daily digest option.. and they also have a newsletter as well. That being said, Forest River personnel DO lurk on that forum and I occasionally do see official factory rep posts either answering a question or to point the OP to the right resource to get an answer. And I don't see evidence there that this discourages honest and even critical discussion of Forest River shortcomings. Just wanted to point this out. I am grateful for both forums.
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Old 02-09-2020, 11:53 AM   #15
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At times a rep on the FR forum will post to an ops link to a rep that can help, often on warranty problems. It is a one time link. No matter as after 2 fr products Im sticking to Keystone, on my 4th.
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Old 02-09-2020, 01:43 PM   #16
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... It has some features I wish this one did have, like a daily digest of the most popular new posts. This forum has the newsletter but it pales by comparison to the Forest River Forum's daily digest option..
There is a "quick reference list" of the day's posts located at the right of the main body of every forum page. It's right under the "small square ad" in the extreme right column.... While not a "digest of most popular" it is a "quick reference to what's most recent". Popular to one person is "wasted space" to the next, so we try to not "popularize any specific post or thread".... Sort of "equal opportunity for all"....
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Old 02-09-2020, 04:31 PM   #17
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At times a rep on the FR forum will post to an ops link to a rep that can help, often on warranty problems. It is a one time link. No matter as after 2 fr products Im sticking to Keystone, on my 4th.
I guess we all have different perspectives, depending on what is important to us, customer support from our dealer or the factory, and to a large extent the individual quality of any given model or specific serial number. I've heard tell there can be a difference in quality simply as to what time of day a unit rolls off the line. Also I think CaptnJohn's Montana may be a step up in quality control from our Keystone Avalanche, much as our Forester is a step up from the FR Sunseeker we had, even though they share floorplans and the like.

I think that both my wife and I have found in general that FR's attention to detail and quality control is MUCH higher on our Forester MH than on our KS 5th wheel - may just be the difference in price points or the fact that 5ers are more cheaply made than motorhomes... not really sure. In any case I certainly won't dispute CaptnJohn's conclusions and it may be apples and oranges, but given the better quality and much better customer support we have experienced with FR, I would stick to FR for future purchases myself. That being said, once we upgraded the numerous deficiencies we found in the Avalanche, we are very fond of the floorplan in it and plan to keep it. All that being said, no RV is free of issues... I have owned half a dozen of them and have spoken with hundreds of owners over the years. Even the Tiffin Allegro Bus we had, while infinitely superior in quality to FR and KS products in our experience, still had some issues we had to deal with. As they say, RV really stands for "Repair Vehicle"
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Old 02-09-2020, 04:56 PM   #18
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I guess we all have different perspectives, depending on what is important to us, customer support from our dealer or the factory, and to a large extent the individual quality of any given model or specific serial number. I've heard tell there can be a difference in quality simply as to what time of day a unit rolls off the line. Also I think CaptnJohn's Montana may be a step up in quality control from our Keystone Avalanche, much as our Forester is a step up from the FR Sunseeker we had, even though they share floorplans and the like.

I think that both my wife and I have found in general that FR's attention to detail and quality control is MUCH higher on our Forester MH than on our KS 5th wheel - may just be the difference in price points or the fact that 5ers are more cheaply made than motorhomes... not really sure. In any case I certainly won't dispute CaptnJohn's conclusions and it may be apples and oranges, but given the better quality and much better customer support we have experienced with FR, I would stick to FR for future purchases myself. That being said, once we upgraded the numerous deficiencies we found in the Avalanche, we are very fond of the floorplan in it and plan to keep it. All that being said, no RV is free of issues... I have owned half a dozen of them and have spoken with hundreds of owners over the years. Even the Tiffin Allegro Bus we had, while infinitely superior in quality to FR and KS products in our experience, still had some issues we had to deal with. As they say, RV really stands for "Repair Vehicle"

As you mentioned, I think we all different perspectives on most everything. I do think however that we all want a trouble free RV when we purchase one AND what you get from any manufacturer is sort of helter skelter depending on what day, time, moon phase etc.

Not trying to start a brand conversation but just talked to little brother last evening discussing my new truck and Montana HC waiting for us to pick up. He owned two FR 5th wheels and the issues with those trailers and FR are the reason he sold them, a new Fork King Ranch diesel and said he would never have another RV. Told him he needed to get another 5vr so we could travel together again; he said it would take a while to get the bad taste out of his mouth but if he did start again it would not be anything FR made.

All that to just point out that IMO it doesn't matter who makes the RV, the chances of it being "wonderful" or a "POC" upon purchase is about the same across the board. As I've always said, dealer-dealer....floorplan-floorplan is what is important TO ME. Chances you are going to get that "one on one", "personalized" treatment from the factory that addresses an issue to your satisfaction is about the same across the board as well from what I've seen but as I've always said, if it works for YOU that's the way to go.
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Old 02-10-2020, 10:18 AM   #19
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To me most brands of tt and 5th wheels are assemblers of other brands of products and in MANY cases they are more helpful. Lippert and Dometic have helped my several times over the years.
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