Some Outlets, appliances, and one light NOT working (bad ground(?) at converter)

gregbyst · 10-06-2020, 10:03 PM

Hi everyone,

My fiancé and I recently purchased a 2007 Keystone Outback fifth wheel and quickly got in over our heads. It's been a few months now, but we are still learning. I appreciate any help you can give me.

Here's what happened:

My fiancé plugged us into a 240v electrical outlet and our microwave had a little explosion inside, the power converter stopped charging the batteries, and I think this may have created a "bad ground" (whatever that means). Also, The fridge doesn't seem to want to run on the shore power, only on the propane, so maybe that's another casualty or I just don't know how to configure it.

We attached an external battery charger to the batteries and went about our lives without doing anything else. An electrician tested the power center and told me we were getting good AC and DC power and that the breakers/fuses worked.

Two months passed by and I began to learn about setting up a solar system so we could boon-dock and eventually live rent free. I realized that I would have to make sure the power center worked properly in order to safely install everything.

I watched this video from WFCO explaining how to trouble shoot the power center:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qyur-fsAw&t=588s

I discovered I was getting what he described as a "bad ground" from my AC hot to my AC ground because the voltage was only at 77 or so volts instead of 124 V. I deemed this worthy of replacement and figured it was the power center itself.

The replacement came in the mail and I installed it but did NOT install the new power converter. I took that piece out because I will be having a 24 volt battery bank so a 12 volt charger won't do me any good. I figured I can sell that part and make some of the money back.

I turned everything back on and discovered that one light (which only works on AC power) is not turning on, most of the outlets are not working except the GFCI outlet in the bathroom and one outlet in the living room. The outlets in the kitchen, on the slide, and in the bedroom don't work. The fridge still doesn't run off of electric either.

The "bad ground" is still there and additionally whenever the AC breakers are tripped the GFCI goes off and I have to reset it. That never used to happen before.

So, my questions are:

1. Why is this happening? Does the power converter need to be plugged in?
2. How do I fix this "bad ground" and what is it?
3. What's up with my fridge?
4. Do I need to replace the breakers themselves?

The breakers are the old ones that had 240 V coursed through them already. In the "off" position one of them still allows 1 Volt to pass through (tested with my multi-meter). Could this be causing any of the problems?

Thanks so much for reading this and helping,

Greg.

LHaven · 10-07-2020, 12:45 AM

Oh, my precious petunias.

To recap, you plugged a 120V RV into a 240V socket, frying all the AC utilities.

Then you decided to replace your standard 12VDC power with 24VCD power, which (unless you replace them all) will fry every remaining light and utility that runs on DC power.

Forgive me if I decline to hazard a guess at what you need to do to get everything working again. I couldn't risk the legal liability. You could have charred and shorted wires anywhere in your rig.

I would recommend you have a long sit-down with a local RV mechanic. Unless you have qualifications to do electrical work (and the details of your post seem to indicate otherwise), you will be needing to make the acquaintance of one for best results.

gregbyst · 10-07-2020, 12:50 AM

No, I am trying to be careful now since my fiancé did that and I am doing my due diligence. I have not hooked up a 24v battery bank to a 12v system, I was saying that I plan to do that in the future and since a 12v charging device cannot charge a 24 v battery bank it makes no sense to keep it plugged in. i will of course be using a DC to DC step down converter from my 24v inverter to my main ac/dc power converter panel when I set everything up.

gregbyst · 10-07-2020, 12:54 AM

Also, seemingly the only casualty was the microwave! Everything else seems to work. I don't know what's going on with the fridge though- maybe that's busted too, but it does run off of propane and the batteries.

I would appreciate any advice. I wasn't the one who did that! haha. I just assumed my fiancé new what she was doing and kept my nose out of it. Since then I have learned a lot about electricity and aim to do all the installation and work myself. I have already replaced the power converter/ac/dc panel.

Any thoughts on what the "bad ground' is and how to fix it?

**chuckster57** · 10-07-2020, 01:51 AM

I’d your trailer 30A or 50A service?

What actually works at this time? Are you plugged in to shore power, and what works when only on battery?

gregbyst · 10-07-2020, 02:02 AM

30 amp. Every DC appliance works fine both on and off of the shore power. The AC appliances that don't work are the fridge and microwave (the microwave was destroyed and the fridge only runs off propane won't run off shore power).

Really the current issue is that ac/dc panel is showing low voltage from the ac hot to the ac ground and my outlets and singular ac light are no longer working since installing the new panel. I didn't put in the new converter and attach it's breaker either. I left out these two black wires that were attached to that breaker so maybe that's the issue... but that breaker is supposed to be only for the converter (and indeed the converter was wired to it) so I don't understand how that could be the case...

What do you think?

**chuckster57** · 10-07-2020, 02:22 AM

Did you change the shore cord?

If your plugged into shore power and the converter isn’t hooked up, your DC stuff is only working from the battery(s). How are you charging the batteries?

gregbyst · 10-07-2020, 02:29 AM

We changed the end of the shore chord but not the chord itself. The electrician told me the chord was fine. We have been charging the batteries via an external battery charger plugged into standard 110.

**chuckster57** · 10-07-2020, 03:17 AM

Only getting 77VAC would tell me it’s time to start at the beginning. How many volts is the outlet your plugged into providing and is it a 50A, 30A or 15A outlet? Are you using any adapters to plug into this outlet. What did the electrician do to test your shore cord?

gregbyst · 10-07-2020, 03:22 AM

We switch between using our 3000 watt generator (124 V) and a 15 amp standard house connection (I don't know what the voltage is). Both use adapters. One is a 30 amp to 110 adapter and the other is an "RV 30 amp" to standard 30-amp (the twist-lock type) which came with the generator.

I don't know what he did to test the cable. At that point I didn't know enough to ask and make sense of an answer.

**chuckster57** · 10-07-2020, 03:57 AM

I think it’s time to have an RV tech with an electrical background make a house call

**flybouy** · 10-07-2020, 04:43 AM

I agree with the advice given. I don't know how long ago this event occurred but it hasn't been long enough for you to have learned enough to keep yourself out of trouble. With all due respect you can't become competent at electrical repairs watching videos or reading internet articles. There are many "qualified electricians" that can't wire a RV 30amp outlet properly.

Get yourself an RV tech that knows the electrical systems and pay for the experience. You're most likely going to save money by not burning it down or having a "shocking experience".

**sourdough** · 10-07-2020, 08:08 AM

I agree with all the others. It's one thing to try to learn how to check continuity on one wire with a VOM and quite another to try to troubleshoot an entire electrical system, 12vdc and 12vac intermingled no less, along with failed appliances plugged in and who knows what else. This is not the time to learn "by the seat of the pants", too many components and wiring can have too many kinds of damage (including the wiring and connections as well) when something like that is done.

Looked at a power ped that had been repaired right before we used it on our last trip. It was supposed to be an "RV" plug installed by an experienced electrician - it was wired for 240vac. The side of the plug housing was burned out and the tech that rewired the plug (left it upside down

) said the RV sustained extensive damage to all the appliances and other "stuff" which he didn't elaborate on.

**JRTJH** · 10-07-2020, 02:21 PM

240 volts through a 120 volt electrical system can do anything (or everything) from overheat conductors and melt the insulation from the wire to fusing/welding circuit breaker contacts together preventing them from functioning to protect the circuit. Damaged/destroyed safety/protection circuits in the microwave, refrigerator, water heater element, wiring to air conditioners, wall outlets and even to the TV could, at any time, erupt in a fire and destroy the RV in a matter of minutes. If you're inside that RV and can't get out, or even if you can get out, everything you own is going to be lost if the RV burns to the ground.

If you've ever seen an RV on fire, they burn quickly, leave little but a frame and a few "identifiable major components" and nearly all are considered a "total loss" all within a few minutes of when the fire started.

DON'T EXPERIMENT WITH AMATUER ELECTRICAL MAINTENANCE......

LHaven · 10-07-2020, 02:47 PM

This is the crux, I think. Once you put 240V through the 120v system, all bets are off. Without a comprehensive visual inspection and/or isolation metering of every AC wire run in the rig, you don't know what melted, what shorted, what burned insulation off.

You don't know if something that "works today" lost insulation and is just waiting for road vibration to snuggle up against your grounded frame.

If you open up every one of your AC outlets and check the connectors, my money is on you finding that you let the smoke out of at least two of them.

I would certainly replace every one of your breakers just out of principle, and check the bus bar behind them while I was at it.

The problem is, each one of these checks or replacements is necessary, but not sufficient. Sufficient is going to require you doing all of them. This is why we don't want to start by talking about a "bad ground." It's like giving someone advice on what to do for a stiff neck after he's been hit by lightning -- there are too many other things that need to be checked out first.

gregbyst · 10-07-2020, 08:44 PM

Thanks for all the replies guys!

The 240V incident happened a couple months ago now and we've been living in it, mostly stationary, that entire time utilizing pretty much every single electrical component without issue. The thought of road vibration causing a wire with burned insulation to ground against the trailer scares me. I assumed everything was okay based off an electricians word.

Do I need to try and hunt down EVERY wire in the entire trailer to visually inspect it? Can I use my multi-meter to check if everything is okay? I have replaced the power center so the DC/AC sides are brand new. All the wires are are the same though. They seemed okay when I was replacing the power converter and there was no burned insulation or anything like that. We replaced the end of the 30 amp connecter as well so that is new.

UPDATE:

The light and outlets are all working again! Turns out the breaker I assumed was only for the converter was also for those outlets and that light. I hooked it back up and everything is back to normal now. The bad ground is also GONE. I tested all three breakers, and one of them is allowing 1.5 v to come through when it's flipped off. I'm assuming this means it's no good? The other two of them only read at like .08 v when off. Should I replace them all?

I don't need to fix or replace the fridge right away since the propane works, but it is something I want to do eventually.

Also the 240 v was only on for like 15 seconds or so before getting unplugged.

**sourdough** · 10-07-2020, 08:56 PM

I'm not an electrician but I've worked with power, AC and DC, for many decades. When you ran that 240 in there for 15 seconds, that may sound like a tiny fraction of time to you, but I've watched a man literally fry in about a second; your wiring/appliances don't require much time to be compromised far beyond what you think. You need to have the entire RV checked top to bottom by someone that knows what they are looking for/at. May find nothing and maybe they do but the consequences of just thinking "all is OK" after that kind of mistake isn't sound. As John mentioned, if/when that "problem" pops up in the middle of the night and starts the trailer on fire your chances are slim to save yourself and even less for anything else that is important to you. It is a costly mistake and one that needs to be addressed...with money and expertise.

LHaven · 10-07-2020, 09:14 PM

Don't think of it as 15 seconds, think of it as 2,800,000 miles. :-)

Pop the breakers out one by one, disconnect them from the black wire, then run an ohmmeter across them in both positions. It seems much more probable to me that the cause of your problem is not "my breaker is letting 1.5 V through," but, "this circuit is getting 1.5 V from an adjacent circuit whose hot wire it got fused to in the wall."

wiredgeorge · 10-08-2020, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHaven

Don't think of it as 15 seconds, think of it as 2,800,000 miles. :-)

Pop the breakers out one by one, disconnect them from the black wire, then run an ohmmeter across them in both positions. It seems much more probable to me that the cause of your problem is not "my breaker is letting 1.5 V through," but, "this circuit is getting 1.5 V from an adjacent circuit whose hot wire it got fused to in the wall."

I think this advice is not so good. Having the OP get into the converter and "test" seems a sure way for getting him fired. I believe he should hire someone that knows that they are doing (bona fide RV tech).

**flybouy** · 10-08-2020, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregbyst

Thanks for all the replies guys!

The 240V incident happened a couple months ago now and we've been living in it, mostly stationary, that entire time utilizing pretty much every single electrical component without issue. The thought of road vibration causing a wire with burned insulation to ground against the trailer scares me. I assumed everything was okay based off an electricians word.

Do I need to try and hunt down EVERY wire in the entire trailer to visually inspect it? Can I use my multi-meter to check if everything is okay? I have replaced the power center so the DC/AC sides are brand new. All the wires are are the same though. They seemed okay when I was replacing the power converter and there was no burned insulation or anything like that. We replaced the end of the 30 amp connecter as well so that is new.

UPDATE:

The light and outlets are all working again! Turns out the breaker I assumed was only for the converter was also for those outlets and that light. I hooked it back up and everything is back to normal now. The bad ground is also GONE. I tested all three breakers, and one of them is allowing 1.5 v to come through when it's flipped off. I'm assuming this means it's no good? The other two of them only read at like .08 v when off. Should I replace them all?

I don't need to fix or replace the fridge right away since the propane works, but it is something I want to do eventually.

Also the 240 v was only on for like 15 seconds or so before getting unplugged.

I've already expressed my view on getting a qualified tech to look at it. Here's more examples of why. "The bad ground is GONE." What is a "bad ground" and how does it fix itself? The "only read .08 volts", there's a reason for the voltage leak, the possibilities are many a varied.

"only on for like 15 seconds or so " .. Lightning typically discharges in less than a second but that doesn't reduce the effect. I will reiterate what I said previously by adding that from your comments you're "way in over head" and this is not a situation where a "it'll be ok " attitude is a good thing.

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